Aboriginal child abuse and the NT Intervention

[quadraphonics]

Once again, only if by some fluke the total numbers were EXACTLY the same.

They needn't be EXACTLY the same same, merely comparable. Meanwhile, what is the basis for the extraordinary claim that indigenous communities exhibit drasticaly higher rates of child sexual abuse than the rest of the country (you know, the entire basis for this imperialist misadventure in carving out exceptions to non-discrimination laws so that the state can send in the army and acquire entire townships)?

I've read that whole "Little Children are Sacred" report, and it is explicit:

"it is not possible to accurately estimate the extent of child sexual abuse in the Northern Territory’s Aboriginal communities"

That's on page 19 of the "background" publication, right at the starting of section 4.1. The report generally skips right over this question, and works from the presumption that this is an issue requiring overt state intervention (and then goes on to spend much time on tangential topics like alcohol, gambling, indigenous court systems and pornography).

So, given that Gustav's statistics demonstrate that sexual abuse is a far more prevalent mode of child abuse in non-indigenous Australia than in Aboriginal communities, and that we have no grounds in evidence to assume that child abuse is more prevalent in Aboriginal communities than elsewhere, the rational expectation is that child sexual abuse is more frequent in non-Aboriginal communities than in in Aboriginal communities.

 

[The Marquis]

I think most labels have lost their meanings and become essentially irrelevant. It would have pissed me off no end being called names four years ago, but now I just see it as an inability to face difficult issues when ad homs start replacing arguments. I just zoom in on the facts now, to see if any evidence has been presented. Everything else is just noise.

Yes. Just the evidence.
Everything else is just noise.

Says it all.

 

[James R]

lets recap the contributions and tactics of anglo imperialists and their sympatizers in this thread...

You know, nobody has even thought to ask whether I approve of the Howard govenment's intervention in the NT. Nobody has asked for my assessment of it at all.

Being called an "anglo imperialist" or a "sympathiser" is just political labelling. SAM and her lap dog have just assumed that everything about the intervention was evil and wrong and motivated by "anglo imperialism". Never mind those facts that two-faced SAM says she is so fond of.

*read the report

That would be an excellent start, don't you think, Gustav?

..vomited with gusto on to this thread in order to maintain the ongoing plunder and genocide of the aboriginal people and their land

There are no ongoing massacres of indigenous Australians. Don't tell lies.

i have a very simple formula
if you agree with me, you are for freedom and self determination
if however you take issue with my pronouncements, you are for rape, dispossession and genocide

really really simple

Yeah. Closed minded, biased and ignorant.

I just zoom in on the facts now, to see if any evidence has been presented. Everything else is just noise.

You haven't even bothered reading up on the topic.

 

[The Marquis]

Nor really read anything anyone else actually said.

She has an axe to grind, nothing more.

As for the Ad Hominem.. I don't place much stock in it really. It is listed as a logical fallacy - unfortunately, though, those who see it and use it as a shield often miss the fact that they may be as much at fault.
Sort of like ad-homming the ad-hom. silly.

 

[Bells]

..vomited with gusto on to this thread in order to maintain the ongoing plunder and genocide of the aboriginal people and their land

Yes. We're rounding them up and blasting them with our dogs that shoot bees from their mouths.

however due to the tireless efforts of aboriginal activists, sam, other members and orgs of the world community, the "race traitors" in australia, we have forced the racist and genocidal govt to the table

Soooo... Sam, who has never met an Aboriginal, probably wouldn't be able to pick an Aboriginal from a crowd, knows nothing of their culture or beliefs, who has in the past called them "Abo's" (which is highly derogatory and racist), amongst other things, along with you, her chihuahua, have forced the Government to the table?

Sam has spent the better part of this thread being offended that the Howard Government took their porn and beer, when the report itself discusses at length how detrimental both are to their culture and societies and recommended overly strict control to access.. Because Allah forbid someone can't wank to porn while getting pissed, in front of the children or getting the children to perform the acts along with you. Apparently that's meant to be normal behaviour and the "racist Australians" are so soooo evil in denying them the right to do that. Bad whities.. bad!

Meanwhile in the real world:

The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare gathered data for 2008–2009 on children aged 0–16 who were the subject of a confirmed child abuse report. It showed that Indigenous children accounted for 25 percent of the reports, despite making up only 4.6 percent of all Australian children; there were 37.7 reports per 1,000 of Indigenous children and 5 reports per 1,000 of non-Indigenous children, that is, Indigenous children were 7.5 times more likely to be the subject of a child abuse report


(Source)
​

So yeah, we want to make sure we continue to let this go on and to make sure it continues, ply them with alcohol and give them as much petrol and paint as we can, because to restrict those items would be overly racist and genocidal of us.. In your world that is. One area of intervention, that of restricting access to types of petrol across the NT has had a very positive affect. But nooo.. you see, it's all bad according to you. But again, in the real world..

The introduction of Opal fuel to regional and remote Indigenous communities has led to a significant decrease in petrol sniffing, according to the Federal Government.

It says two Senate inquiries have revealed a 70 per cent drop in petrol sniffing across sample communities.

There are 106 communities, roadhouses and other fuel outlets receiving the low-aromatic Opal fuel across regional and remote Australia.

A Central Australian substance abuse service says the Government must implement a mandatory rollout of Opal fuel across Australia.


(Source)
​

Evil.. Evil.. Evil!

Such intervention! Tsk tsk. And to spend probably a vast sum of money to develop this fuel so the whiteys could stop the Aboriginals from sniffing their fuel! How could they!?

I say we vote for Sam for PM! Maybe she can turn this thing around and you know, tell them they can and should have as much booze, porn and petrol they need!

 

[S.A.M.]

I say we vote for Sam for PM! Maybe she can turn this thing around and you know, tell them they can and should have as much booze, porn and petrol they need!

So they are incapable of governing themselves then. Does this make them officially backward?

 

[GeoffP]

Yes. We're rounding them up and blasting them with our dogs that shoot bees from their mouths.

It's typical that someone only mentions option this after my defense budget for the year has been allocated.

 

[Bells]

So they are incapable of governing themselves then. Does this make them officially backward?

Certainly!

But you knew exactly what I meant. However you decided to turn it around to this. Self determination means no control and no laws! I know.. I want self determination! Get rid of the God damn drink driving laws! Do you understand what I mean now?

If the use of something can result in possible harm to others, then those who are at risk of causing harm are normally restricted in their use of that "something". For example, we have drink driving laws that apply to all and sundry. Why do you think that is Sam? Don't such laws impede on our ability to govern ourselves? Shouldn't I be given the choice? No, I am not. The only choice I have is to not drink and drive and risk harming or killing someone, or I can do what I want to do and damn everyone else. The Government disagrees. Instead, they take away my choice in the matter and make it illegal for me to drive anywhere while drunk. Why? Because if I drive drunk, then I am a risk to the community at large.

Lets apply this to Indigenous communities.. If rampant drunkeness by an overly large portion of the community, coupled with pornography, is deemed to be damaging to the community (and we all know it is), then restrictions can be placed on accessing such goods and items - to protect the community as a whole. In short, if I can't legally drive while drunk, they can't be drunk and beat people up... Why? Because I and they are causing harm and endangering the community by our actions.

 

[S.A.M.]

Certainly!

But you knew exactly what I meant. However you decided to turn it around to this. Self determination means no control and no laws! I know.. I want self determination! Get rid of the God damn drink driving laws! Do you understand what I mean now?

If the use of something can result in possible harm to others, then those who are at risk of causing harm are normally restricted in their use of that "something". For example, we have drink driving laws that apply to all and sundry. Why do you think that is Sam? Don't such laws impede on our ability to govern ourselves? Shouldn't I be given the choice? No, I am not. The only choice I have is to not drink and drive and risk harming or killing someone, or I can do what I want to do and damn everyone else. The Government disagrees. Instead, they take away my choice in the matter and make it illegal for me to drive anywhere while drunk. Why? Because if I drive drunk, then I am a risk to the community at large.

Lets apply this to Indigenous communities.. If rampant drunkeness by an overly large portion of the community, coupled with pornography, is deemed to be damaging to the community (and we all know it is), then restrictions can be placed on accessing such goods and items - to protect the community as a whole. In short, if I can't legally drive while drunk, they can't be drunk and beat people up... Why? Because I and they are causing harm and endangering the community by our actions.

You know what would convince me? If they made all Australia dry and porn free. Yup, no bootleggers, no non-aboriginals with access to porn, no discrimination. Otherwise enforcing dry communities ONLY for the aboriginals is like having prohibition only for blacks

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

So they are incapable of governing themselves then. Does this make them officially backward?

It's an uncomfortable fact that people who are still living in the Paleolithic or Neolithic Era (the Stone age without or with agriculture but without the complexity of city life), when first confronted with modern civilization, cannot generally fully and comfortably adapt to many thousands of years of technological and social change in one lifetime; in fact it's likely to take quite a bit longer than that. But the Australians have had two hundred years. Why should they not now be capable of governing themselves in a way that makes their communities at least compatible with the surrounding European culture, if not part of it?

 

[S.A.M.]

Meanwhile in the real world:

The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare gathered data for 2008–2009 on children aged 0–16 who were the subject of a confirmed child abuse report. It showed that Indigenous children accounted for 25 percent of the reports, despite making up only 4.6 percent of all Australian children; there were 37.7 reports per 1,000 of Indigenous children and 5 reports per 1,000 of non-Indigenous children, that is, Indigenous children were 7.5 times more likely to be the subject of a child abuse report

Thank you so much! This is what I wanted to see

I've traced the original report from your link

http://www.aihw.gov.au/publications/cws/35/10859.pdf

I'll comment after going through the data.

 

[quadraphonics]

Why should they not now be capable of governing themselves in a way that makes their communities at least compatible with the surrounding European culture, if not part of it?

No reason - and so they should be given the opportunity to do so.

 

[Gustav]

The Australian Institute of Health and Welfare gathered data for 2008–2009 on children aged 0–16 who were the subject of a confirmed child abuse report. It showed that Indigenous children accounted for 25 percent of the reports, despite making up only 4.6 percent of all Australian children; there were 37.7 reports per 1,000 of Indigenous children and 5 reports per 1,000 of non-Indigenous children, that is, Indigenous children were 7.5 times more likely to be the subject of a child abuse report


(Source)
​

and that is exactly what you white supremacists want right? an expected and wholly desirable consequence of your racist and discriminatory policies

here
your insidious formula..

discriminatory policies=poverty=despair=neglect=stolen children part 2

ja
resistance is futile
you will be assimilated

goddamn bells
you apologize and go on to roll out nti?
thats cunning and utterly perfidious
you guys are beyond shame right?

/disgusted

Genocide 101: Exploit The Victims​

*Because Allah forbid someone can't wank to porn while getting pissed, in front of the children or getting the children to perform the acts along with you

*Aboriginals from sniffing their fuel

*Why is a 7 year old girl inserting plastic things into her vagina in class

*Children that young aren't normally sexually active and don't normally have sexual contact with adults. Nor are they normally exposed to pornography repeatedly as their parents watch it.

*The children want their iphones, sex on tap and alcohol and spray paint to sniff.

*10 year olds were selling their bodies to adult men for sex and money

*3 year old children were not sexually active. 7 year olds weren't having sex

*a 5 year old girl (her student) to masturbate with a pen behind the toilet block at lunch time while 5 -6 year old boys egged her on

*big screen TV's that were sold to very young girls who suddenly became pregnant when it was introduced

*mother sobbing to you because her son has raped her and beaten her every night of the week​

 

[Gustav]

It's an uncomfortable fact that people who are still living in the Paleolithic or Neolithic Era (the Stone age without or with agriculture but without the complexity of city life), when first confronted with modern civilization, cannot generally fully and ........

...blather blather blather

ja
the trending excuse for genocide...

“If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn’t turn out very well for the Native Americans. (hawkings)”

i mean, wtf is the premise? conquest of peoples and appropriation of their lands is inevitable?

you have choices. you do not have to kill.you do not have to steal. you do not have to rape. i do not know of any immutable law that says if one's ass itches, one has to set sail and engage in genocide

stay home please
try!
at least till you grow up

 

[The Marquis]

Let me guess, which population groups worldwide have the highest rate of population increase

a. those at war
b. those under occupation
c. those under oppressive regimes
d. those who are least educated
e. those who have the lowest life expectancies
f. those with the poorest socio-economic indices
g. all of the above

so, which door should I open milord?

Any you like. Unfortunately, they're all incorrect.
The Aboriginals have fitted into a few of those categories for a while now, and only recently has the population begun to grow.

You're making the same mistake I spent telling you at great length you've been making all along - trying to fit this particular problem into your experience with your own corner of the world. It doesn't work.

 

[The Marquis]

...blather blather blather

ja
the trending excuse for genocide...

<more blather>

Again, there was no genocide. That's another of those catchphrases people like to throw around.
Right up there with "military interventon", "muslim", "terrorist"... you know how it works. You've been complaining about it long enough.

You said it yourself.
A people dispossesed centuries ago, given freedom decades ago, now with more opportunities than white people have, should they actually take advantage of them... Now listen to you:
"you have choices. you do not have to kill.you do not have to steal. you do not have to rape. i do not know of any immutable law that says if one's ass itches, one has to set sail and engage in genocide"

Quite correct. You do not have to drink. You do not have to hate. You do not have to resort to violence. You do not have to buy into a culture of sustained abuse of women and children.

See how that works, meathead?

I'm still waiting for my little plot of land in Somerset, England. After all, the Romans came around about a thousand years ago and... *sniff* I'm Scarred. Emotionally. Thats why I have a drinking problem.
You know? But if you gave me money and land, opportunities, maybe I'd get over it... wait.
The Australians have already done that.

 

[Gustav]

The Aboriginals have fitted into a few of those categories for a while now, and only recently has the population begun to grow.

it is only in the twisted minds of the racist anglos that high birth rates in aboriginal society signifies and correlates to a positive socioeconomic indicator. it is the stubborn refusal to break down the data and actually see that these fertility rates are nothing but a symptom of the pathology induced on the natives by their genocidal oppressors

now
a background

In 2006, 455,028 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people were counted in the Census, representing an increase of 11% between the 2001 and 2006 Censuses. The census count for the total population increased by 6% over the same period (table 3). Over the past 20 years, the census count of Indigenous people has doubled from 227,593 in 1986. This high level of growth is a result of natural increase (the excess of births over deaths) and non-demographic factors such as people identifying their Indigenous origin for the first time in the Census. Analysis of the components of population growth between 2001 and 2006 will be undertaken as part of the development of final estimates and projections of the Indigenous population as discussed above.
​

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/ABS@...14e7a4a075d53a6cca2569450007e46c!OpenDocument

a comparison

Fertility levels and trends

Estimates from the 1991 Census3 indicate that the total fertility rate of Aboriginal women is about 3.1 children per woman, over 50% higher than the figure of 1.9 for total women. Over the last 30 years, there has been a substantial decline in fertility for both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal women. Accompanying this has been a narrowing of the fertility differential between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal women. In the 1960s, Aboriginal fertility, at about 6.0 children per woman, was about twice the rate for total women.

Fertility declines for both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal women over the last 30 years have followed a similar pattern with the sharpest decrease recorded during the 1970s. However, the fertility decline for non-Aboriginal women commenced in the 1960s while for Aboriginal women fertility was largely stable in the 1960s followed by a sharp decline in the early 1970s. In the ten years to 1991, the fertility of both populations has been reasonably stable.​

a breakdown

Age-specific fertility

Aboriginal women have children at younger ages than non-Aboriginal women. Fertility among 15-19 year old Aboriginal women was more than five times higher than among all 15-19 year old women in 1991. Among 20-24 year olds, Aboriginal fertility was about two and a half times higher. Aboriginal fertility peaks in the 20-24 years age group while for the total population the peak child-bearing ages are 25-29 years. The fertility of women aged 30 years and over is similar in both the Aboriginal and total Australian populations. Aboriginal women aged 15-24 years contributed over 75% of the difference in the total fertility rate between Aboriginal women and all Australian women. The earlier age at commencement of child-bearing by Aboriginal women, and the higher fertility of 15-24 year old Aboriginal women are most responsible for the higher fertility of Aboriginal women.​

another comparison

Trends in age-specific fertility

Over the past 30 years declines in Aboriginal fertility have occurred in all age groups. Older women experienced proportionally larger declines than younger women. The smallest fall in relative terms was among the 15-19 years age group, so that the contribution of this group to the total fertility of Aboriginal women has increased relative to that of other age groups. In 1961, the age-specific fertility rate of 15-19 year old Aboriginal women was 80% that of 30-34 year olds. In 1991 the fertility of 15-19 years olds was just as high as that of 30-34 year olds.

The net effect of this has been a decline in the average age of Aboriginal mothers at child-bearing. In comparison, the average age of women at child-bearing in the total population has been increasing. The trend towards younger ages of Aboriginal mothers may continue. On the other hand, the contribution of the different age groups to total Aboriginal fertility in 1991 is not dissimilar to that for the total population in 1971, when much higher fertility was observed in the 15-24 years age group. It is possible that Aboriginal fertility will in the future move further towards that of non-Aboriginal women.​

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@...7c220785a3616643ca2570ec007853c5!OpenDocument

why on earth would the the fact that kids having kids be lauded and feted as proof of a lack of discrimination by the anglo overlords? should they not be graduating hs, going to college and preparing for a career as the rest of the civilized world does? as the anglo-australian kids do? is it because the white anglo sexual predators prefers to have these kids with no opportunities for advancement as productive members of society, preferring instead to reserve them for their pedophile rings and sexual slavery? how else could this be explained?

/disgusted

Children aged under 15 years comprised 38% of the total Indigenous population (compared with 19% in the non-Indigenous population); people aged 15-24 years comprised 19% of the Indigenous population (compared with 14%) and people aged 65 years and over represented only 3% (compared with 13%). These different age profiles reflect the higher rates of fertility and deaths occurring at younger ages among the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population.

# Over the past 20 years life expectancy has improved by 5.8 years for males and 4.3 years for females. A boy born in 2004–2006 can expect to live 78.7 years while a girl can expect to live 83.5 years.
# The Australian Capital Territory recorded the highest life expectancy at birth for both males (80.0 years) and females (83.9 years) in 2004–2006, while the Northern Territory recorded the lowest life expectancy at birth for both males (72.1 years) and females (78.1 years).
# In 2004–2006 life expectancy at birth varied between the Statistical Divisions (SDs) of Australia by approximately 12 years for males and 13 years for females. Male life expectancy at birth was highest in Melbourne and Canberra (both 80.0 years). Female life expectancy at birth was highest in Sunshine Coast SD in Queensland (84.7 years), Upper Great Southern SD in Western Australia (84.6 years) and Perth (84.4 years).

Experimental Indigenous life expectancy at birth for 1996–2001 is estimated to be 59.4 years for males and 64.8 years for females.
​

http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/allprimarymainfeatures/6D12A5975BB2CA30CA25750B000E24DE

 

[Gustav]

*Again, there was no genocide. That's another of those catchphrases people like to throw around.

*A people dispossesed centuries ago, given freedom decades ago, now with more opportunities than white people have, should they actually take advantage of them...

*I'm still waiting for my little plot of land in Somerset, England. After all, the Romans came around about a thousand years ago and... *sniff* I'm Scarred. Emotionally. Thats why I have a drinking problem.
You know? But if you gave me money and land, opportunities, maybe I'd get over it... wait.
The Australians have already done that.

ahh
a peek into the unapologetic anglo's racist and diabolical mind
thank you
your reasoning provides much insight into the length and breadth, the extent, of your callousness and depravity

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

...blather blather blather--ja--the trending excuse for genocide.

You took part of my post out of context. I certainly do not advocate genocide. My point is that it may take an aboriginal people a few generations to fully integrate the nearby presence of an Agricultural, or City-Dwelling, or Bronze Age, or Iron Age, or Industrial, or Computerized population into the routines and attitudes that guide their life. During that time there is no tried and tested way to avoid having a wrenching impact on their culture, for the very good reason that it cannot be avoided. Nonetheless an emphasis on kindness and respect would be an obvious basis for interaction, with a much-needed edit to the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as they would have you do unto them."

If you've done a good job, after those few generations the two cultures should be able to coexist in some semblance of harmony. The modern one should have few reasons to intefere with the older one, and those reasons should primarily concern the artifacts of modern life such as highways, television, hospitals and elections. If the brewing of alcohol is a technology which they have not yet invented (and it generally comes with the Agricultural Revolution), then I suppose it has to fall into that category too. It was certainly a catastrophe for the aboriginal people on my continent.

But nowhere in this little handbook of mine is genocide listed as an acceptable measure to take. I'm a pacifist so you won't find violence in any of my handbooks.

 

[Gustav]

/smile

thanks frag
my apologies