Maybe you're right, maybe Jan is just pulling our middle legs. But, I have met folks like Jan who talk and believe just as he does. One time, I was in a conversation with two other guys, whereupon one guy didn't quite understand how evolution worked in real life. As the two of us explained to the other how it worked with real life examples, another guy came into the room and overheard us talking. He immediately started howling with laughter as he jumped around the room onto tables and chairs pretending to be a monkey and then went into a rant about how Jesus was his savior and how the rest of us would burn in hell.
A world with a loving God.
- Thread starter Xelasnave.1947
- Start date
Maybe you're right, maybe Jan is just pulling our middle legs. But, I have met folks like Jan who talk and believe just as he does. One time, I was in a conversation with two other guys, whereupon one guy didn't quite understand how evolution worked in real life. As the two of us explained to the other how it worked with real life examples, another guy came into the room and overheard us talking. He immediately started howling with laughter as he jumped around the room onto tables and chairs pretending to be a monkey and then went into a rant about how Jesus was his savior and how the rest of us would burn in hell.
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
The first misconception about evolution is that it suggests we came from monkeys, which is not really the case. Opponents have no concept of "common ancestor".
If the creationist flapped around like a fish he would be getting closer to the idea really.
JC came from astrology. The ancients studied the stars in the belief they related somehow to gods. So the invention we call JC has 12 followers, which was a take off of the Sun having 12 followers, the 12 constalstions of the zodiac...the three kings are three stars in Orion that line up with Sirius, the Bethlehem star, to show where the Sun rises on the 25 th December, ...it's an astrology parallel.
There were many human gods prior to JC all with similar Sun like characteristics but the Romans used the list to construct JC to give the empire a better basis for political control going forward.
The death and resurrection is a parallel to the Sun mid winter, where it appears to stop (die) and after three days starts back to take us into summer.
There is plenty on the net showing many JC cults. The Romans by virtue of their control of the roads saw to it that their version was taken everywhere ... And so one can see how the cult moved throughout the world of the Romans. Its appeal to rulers was that they could claim being in place by the desire of God rather than what went before where they were merely like other mere mortals subject to the whims of whatever god they had invented.
The Romans sort to control the rebellious Jews using JC to lay out acceptable behaviour (consistent with what Rome wanted)...and certainly JC was entirely inconsistent with the rebellion they were trying to manage.
Perhaps the most telling is the Jews have never bought the JC story.
It is fascinating history if you care to look into the number of JC type human gods in many cultures and how it was all based on astrology.
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Knowing it or discovering it, for yourself? There’s no reason to not trust the NASA photography.
Do you regard every theist in this way?
Sure we theists sit sit around all day making up new gods. Why worry about the truth, or even work for that matter, when we can sit around and make up gods?
Then be surprised my friend.
You’re intuition is way off. Not only with that, but also in your thinking. You are at the gates of worshipping a Trojan horse (materialism).
I don’t believe you as yet, fully immersed.
There’s hope for you yet.
Another one of your unfounded beliefs to add to the pot. Tonight folks we are having atheists stew, with some Darwinian sauce (sauce that evolved from the Jurassic era).
Seriously though! Why would you think that?
Is that the kind of thing you would do?
You sound like a brainwashed cult member.
Evolution is fine. Everybody in the world accepts it. Darwinism is whack.
If I’m not mistaken, Richard Dawkins came up, or re-brought, to our attention, the idea of ‘memes’. Darwinism is a meme.
Why don’t humans put an end to suffering?
We’re the ones who make it happen in the first place. Should I ask God to help me find my misplaced keys, or should I look for them myself.
Before you go about demanding what God should and shouldn’t do, you should learn more. The problem is, you’re atheist, meaning for you, there is no God. Can you see how you’re locked into a circle?
Keep telling yourself that.
How else are you going to remain atheist.
Why is there no reason to distrust them?
It was “basic science”, it would be accepted throughout the entire scientific community (without extortion), like other basic scientific knowledge. All scientists accept evolution, but not all accept Darwinism. It’s not “basic science” .
Why do atheists think they alone have the right to use technology? Do they think technological advancements are due to atheism?
The word quasi-intelligent is a perfect substitute for the artistry we see all around us, wherever we look.
Subjective. You see artistry, I see nature and physics
I do contradict myself when I look at the night sky and express awe at its majestic vista but deep down the pragmatic me is mumbling 'they are just balls of burning gas'
A ATM is a dumb machine designed to dispense money and withhold said money if certain conditions are not met
Any semblance to intelligence would not rise above the level of intelligence of the written program
for some obscure reason
Agree. I would however put the obscure reasons as a mix of reasons reinforced by con artist ie those of a religious bent
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Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Sure we theists sit sit around all day making up new gods. Why worry about the truth, or even work for that matter, when we can sit around and make up gods?
I knew it and thanks for the admission.
Why so many gods?
Absolutely..generalising is the pathway to truth.
Of course you will say that otherwise your game would be over.
You can't know that.
I don't know what you are trying to say here but I will just accept you can only be mistaken.
Care to put that another way as I have no idea what you are trying to say.
That makes me feel better.
Well I really thought you were intelligent but reluctantly I will take your word if you wish to reject my qualification that you are intelligent. Pity. And if you really are a theist I am sure you could do more to prove that god is real...and I note that a ways back you did say god does not exist...so if you wish to prove you are indeed a theist perhaps you need to be more energetic ...you known just drop this pretense, adopted by the character you inhabit here, showing theists to be somewhat silly and irrational etc etc. You must know the terrible image you give theists which can not be a mere accident.
Metaphor does not work well for you Jan so may I suggest you say exactly what you mean.
Your behaviour in general ... It only makes sense under my senerio. Come on Jan there is no way you believe any god story...you are not that gullible.
If I had thought about things longer and if I wanted to have an impact I think such an approach would be very effective..certainly the image you project for theists is most damning... And this is a science site so you know you could drive home that theists are silly, and maybe you get joy taking that position because you can infuriate people by being elusive.
So many try and I suspect you get satisfaction sidestepping etc.
Also you...never mind..you know what I could also mention.
Mere coincidence.
It seems ok more so now with your endorsement.
Your generalisation is wrong.
OK
I don't know enough to comment.
I give up...why don't humans put an end to suffering?
How long have they been missing?
Do not be ridiculous... I don't demand anything from anyone and certainly make no demands upon a mythical character.
How can I learn more...I already know everything but of course you already know that...well everything that is important...anything you want to know just ask me.
You at least have changed from your past definition of atheist...some may know what I refer to here as I suspect the long chats about your definition of atheist would be remembered by some.
I suffer no confinement by a geometric term used to describe a 2d concept.
Do you think I need to?
I dont know maybe by going thru the long long list of gods and considering the merits of each one and determine if any may be real, but that would take a great deal of time I expect..I think I will continue as I have in the past to assess any god claim and examine the evidence put forward by the person making the claim.
Alex
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That’s the problem, they’re all concepts. That’s why it doesn’t matter if we use “monkeys”, or “common ancestor”. The misconception comes from the “concept” of darwinism, in the first place.
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
You can hold that view but the point is that monkeys and humans are thought to have a common ancestor that was neither monkey or human.
The options seem to be...science explains that species evolve and creationist reject such on the basis that humans were created by a creator. Evolution doesnot deal with how life came to be however creationists find the notion of evolution at opposition to ancient scriptures and they don't cover evolution and are limited to the specific creation of humans. Evolution has credible support from scientists from the modern era whereas creation was invented by ancient folk with no understanding that species evolve. The ancients just made stuff up and so it is easy to understand why they came up with what we could call a simplistic "concept"...but they knew so little and did not have the benefit of our research.
As I say to illustrate their ignorance of the most simple things..they did not know where the Sun went at night...they thought illness was due to demons and had no idea about germs...they are hardly the folk to look to form any understanding of the universe.
And if I went shopping for a reliable concept I would not be buying from folk who did not know where the Sun went at night or had no knowledge of germs...
It's a no contest... ignorance and superstition against science...it is unfortunate many folk are still ignorant and superstitious but hopefully in the future we can be rid of it and then maybe many problems will disappear... So many deaths through out history have been a direct result of this terrible superstition we are burdened with...
Alex
So we can dance on their heads, from here to Timbuktu.
This response proves I’m right?
Told you.
If I were intelligent, I would totally immerse myself in God.
Wow! An atheist scraping the barrel.
Did I really say God does not exist?
Or did I say God does not exist the way other things exist (from our perspective).
That just goes to show that you’re not serious.
It goes to show you have nothing to offer.
Just remember, an atheist is a person who does not believe in God. God does not exist is simply a reason why you don’t believe. It is not that God does not exist. You’re simply playing out you tiny independence, given to you, by God, so that you can act as though God does not exist, or believe there is no evidence for God, or if God is real why doesn’t He show Himself, blah! blah!
All that means is, you’re an atheist. It doesn’t get better than that.
Your scenario is but one scenario (read above).
I don’t know one person that doesn’t accept evolution.
I’ve never heard one scientist not accept evolution. That’s not a generalisation.
There’s hope for you yet,
Why don’t you look it up? Isn’t that what you do with darwinism? Or is darwinism spiritually connected to your being. So much so, like memes, you don’t have to know enough about it, in order to be a purveyor of knowledge on the subject?
I guess my question is; why is researching darwinism more important than research the meaning of “meme”?
You’re not even aware of your own contradiction. Are you?
What does this, being a science site, have to do with theism?
You say these things, but you don’t give much thought to what you say. But I like you because you reveal things that more seasoned, smarter atheist have learned to spin or hide. I get a real insight.
Is it though?
Because increasingly, some humans don’t want to. Which is why there is suffering.
Yes!
Otherwise you’ll automatically revert back to theist.
In other words, you’ll keep telling yourself that.
Have a marvellous day Alex.
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Write4U
Valued Senior Member
Exactly, I see nature and physical patterns, mathematical patterns which reveal the beauty of mathematical potentials. Not intelligent, not motivated, no plan or program, just mathematically ordered patterns.
On the contrary, seeing the Sun as a ball of burning gas is literally a superficial perspective. Deep down you know the inconceivable forces working together to maintain this enormous pattern which radiates sunshine on earth and together with water allows for the emergence of an infinity variety of living patterns, shapes, colors, sounds, aromas, fishes, birds, mammals, humans on Earth. Without that "burning ball of gas" none of that would be possible. I cannot believe for one moment that you stop at seeing a "burning ball", without experiencing a deeper emotional response of the size and scope of how the universe works....
Species and their unique patterns and colorations are representative of natural artistry of self-ordering biological mathematical functions. All this happens spontaneously, that's the beauty and artistry of it!
This is natural artistry in its purest sense. This is artistry physically expressed trough the blind application of relative values and mathematical functions. Science is the study of these processes. And your "burning ball of gas" has been explained "in depth" by science.
Are you content to call the universe as being "space with stuff" in it? I doubt that very much Michael.
But all these creative processes is not evidence of an intelligent motivated God. It is evidence of physical processes in accordance with the mathematical interactions of the relative atomic values of elementary particles.
There is nothing mysterious about mathematics. All orderly patterns are evidence of mathematical functions.
"addition, subtraction, multiplication, division" are the most fundamental simple mathematical functions and are employed in every universal action at every scale from atoms to galaxies.
The proof lies in the fact that everything can be quantified and qualified, and that even the simplest biological organisms acquire a sense of time, a mathematical pattern.
Circadian rhythm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm
Bacteria can count, slime molds can count, monkeys can count. They don't count 1, 2, 3, 4 ......, they posses a natural innate sense of relative values (quantities), they can make a distinction between "more" from "less", a mathematical function.
This is pertinent to this OP, because all these orderly patterns are easily mistaken as being an expression of "intelligence" (a universal god).
A mistake which can be easily corrected by the prefix "quasi-intelligent", i/e it behaves "as if" it is intelligent.
But it is merely mathematical. Tegmark estimates that the entire universe can be explained with 32 relative values and a dozen equations. Human mathematics are perfectly up to that task.
Therein lies the simple beauty of it all. The introduction of a sentient, loving , motivated God is just plain superfluous and makes the whole thing unneccessarily complicated....
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Therein lies the simple beauty of it all. The introduction of a sentient, loving God is just plain superfluous and makes the whole thing unneccessarily complicated....
•slow handclap•
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
I agree, it was hominoid.
Apes (Hominoidea) are a branch of Old World tailless simians native to Africa and Southeast Asia. They are the sister group of the Old World monkeys, together forming the catarrhineclade. They are distinguished from other primates by a wider degree of freedom of motion at the shoulder joint as evolved by the influence of brachiation. In traditional and non-scientific use, the term "ape" excludes humans, and is thus not equivalent to the scientific taxon Hominoidea. There are two extant branches of the superfamily Hominoidea: the gibbons, or lesser apes; and the hominids, or great apes.
Hominoid, noun
A primate of a group that includes humans, their fossil ancestors, and the anthropoid apes.
adjective
Relating to hominoid primates.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape
One interesting distinction is that all Apes have 24 chromosomes, except for Humans who have 23 chromosomes.
(this is due to the fusion of Ape chomosome 2p and 2q into Human chromosome 2)
IMO, this must have been the point where humans split from our ancestral family.
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Great answer.
I didn't say you were wrong.
Stop putting yourself down.
I think so.
Of course I am not serious I thought that was clear.
What no credit for the informative videos?
So your saying that I am an atheist.
Ray Comfort?
I honestly don't know and don't care.
No but I don't care.
I know I am not smart but it's great you get some benefit.
Thank you Jan it's been real nice chatting.
Alex
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
It processes mathematical information, no?
You mean written by humans?
You may want to rethink that statement. Do chemical elements have written programs? Do biological organisms have written programs? Can we say that DNA is a self-assembled written program?
Does mitosis (cell division into exact daughter copies) have a written program? This computational power even exceeds human abilities. But it's only a quasi-intelligent process. There is no brain involved. Think about it!
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What would the motive be for NASA to falsify images of Earth?
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
An Atheist conspiracy? Yeahhh, that's it. Science is always falsifying things. They even admit it...