A Simple Justice System

[Baron Max]

And, we can forget about those who died on death row but were innocent of the crimes they were convicted. Again, the system doesn't work.

Hell, those people have been forgotten long, long before they were even executed! If we wait for everything to be perfect, then nothing will ever get done. Innocent people are murdered every day in cities all across America ...a few more executed ain't gonn'a make no difference.

The system DOES work. It's just like every other human-designed system ...it ain't perfect, but it works well until we come up with something better.

Baron Max

 

[Norsefire]

And, we can forget about those who died on death row but were innocent of the crimes they were convicted. Again, the system doesn't work.

Or the people put in prison for life that were innocent

Problem with the conviction, not with execution.

 

[(Q)]

Or the people put in prison for life that were innocent

Problem with the conviction, not with execution.

In other words, the system. So, we agree.

 

[Baron Max]

In other words, the system. So, we agree.

Is there any other human endeavor in which you expect absolute perfection? ...and if you don't get it, you shit-can the whole system?

You don't want to execute people, yet you complain about over-crowding in prisons. So ....let's just build more and bigger prisons! Problem solved ....WITHOUT letting criminals go free or changing laws that the society obviously wants to keep in place.

Baron Max

 

[Norsefire]

In other words, the system. So, we agree.

Parts of the system. The execution should be left intact, however; execution is the most practical method for dealing with criminals. Look at it logically and logistically.

 

[swarm]

Originally Posted by swarm
I'm saying jail cause the problem its supposedly fixing.

How? Please explain.

It is well established that the prison system acts as a criminal university where nonviolent petty criminals or people who acted in the heat of the moment learn how to become a hardened criminal and are recruited by organized crime.

While many people leave the prison system and go on to lead normal lives, the ones who don't come out much more dangerous.

Originally Posted by swarm
We need to heal those who have social illness and preferably in a manner where they can continue functioning in society to pay for their treatment and make restitution to their victims.

How can we heal them?[/QUOTE]

The situation is the same as when we shut up the mentally ill in asylums. We will find our ways only as we stop shutting them up and start working out treatments. Also there will always be some that can't be reached. But how we now work with the mentally ill, while not perfect, is far better and more compassionate and humane than the asylums.

And what do we do with them while we're healing them ...

The whole point is WE don't do anything except monitor and enforce their compliance. They are responsible for their own up keep and maintaining a job. Its only if they are actually thought to be a continuing threat that we commit them.

just let them keep walking the streets?

Much like the functionally insane who need help but don't need to be locked up. I'm talking non violent criminals that we want to keep non violent. They have to go through whatever treatment there is and it would seem reasonably to limit there access to problem areas for them.

I see no reason why we should pay their way and leave the victim out in the cold when they can work for their own support and use the extra for restitution.

Also I think its a horrible idea to force petty crooks into prolonged contact with hardened criminals.

Now do you have any actual objections to saving the 5 billion dollars we waste on jailing people who don't need to be jailed?

Do you have any real objections to not making more hardened criminals?

Do you have any objections to the victim actually getting some restitution for what happened to them?

 

[Baron Max]

It is well established that the prison system acts as a criminal university where nonviolent petty criminals or people who acted in the heat of the moment learn how to become a hardened criminal and are recruited by organized crime.

Those people voluntarily applied to the "Criminal University" by their acts against their own society. No one forced them to do it. People know, from early childhood, that they must pay the price for their own actions.

While many people leave the prison system and go on to lead normal lives, the ones who don't come out much more dangerous.

See? You admit yourself that the time in the "criminal university" didn't "cause" them to all become dangerous criminals! Many prisoners did not become "hardened criminals", thus ...prison time didn't cause anything!

... We will find our ways only as we stop shutting them up and start working out treatments. ...

So, without any reliable, scientific studies or evidence, the society should just take your word that "...it'll all work out good."?

..., while not perfect, is far better and more compassionate and humane than the asylums.

"...more compassionate and humane..."??? You mean compassionate and humane like the convicted criminals were to their victims? Nice.

Also I think its a horrible idea to force petty crooks into prolonged contact with hardened criminals.

I think it's a horrible idea for those people to have committed the offense that puts them in contact with the hardened criminals! They did the crime, now they have to do the time. No one forced them into crime! They volunteered!

Baron Max

 

[Cowboy]

Norsefire's idea isn't bad in theory, but I have the same questions as Asguard:

whats bad?
whos laws?
whats good?

 

[swarm]

Those people voluntarily applied to the "Criminal University" by their acts against their own society.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? They are our prisoners and we can stop turning them into uber crooks and start turning them back into contributing citizens if we care to.

they must pay the price for their own actions.

Except your "they" includes me and I don't feel like paying for your stupidity on top of their stupidity.

didn't "cause" them to all become dangerous criminals!

Yes you are a dumb shit. Can we just skip that part?

..., while not perfect, is far better and more compassionate and humane than the asylums.

"...more compassionate and humane..."??? You mean compassionate and humane like the convicted criminals were to their victims? Nice.

75% of those people didn't have any victims BM. They are in for victimless crimes. And the mentally ill can be every bit as dangerous as the socially ill. But we manage to get by without asylums and with a lot more people getting wwell and contributing to society instead of being a drag on society like you.

They did the crime, now they have to do the time.

Yes you are too stupid act in your own best interest. You rather throw your money away and increase the danger to yourself and your property. You are one smart cookie all right. Go ahead and chant some more slogans so you can feel tough.

 

[Norsefire]

Victimless crimes shouldn't exist; however for crimes where someone is hurt, and are not crimes of passion, there is no other logical and justified choice except for hangin' 'em high

 

[swarm]

Victimless crimes shouldn't exist;

Lots of things "shouldn't."

however for crimes where someone is hurt, and are not crimes of passion, there is no other logical and justified choice except for hangin' 'em high

I prefer not to waste resources or people, and I prefer to see things made right for the victim if possible.

 

[Norsefire]

I prefer not to waste resources or people, and I prefer to see things made right for the victim if possible.

Precisely. Thanks for agreeing.

 

[swarm]

Precisely. Thanks for agreeing.

Good.

Then you must agree that prison for any one who isn't violent and a danger to themselves or others is a complete waste.

The imprisoned person is not longer earning a living and must be supported by society so they cost us money and they aren't compensating the victim.

And what's worse, they are being encouraged to become better criminals instead of being encouraged to be better citizens.

It is a expensive system where every one loses.

 

[(Q)]

Parts of the system. The execution should be left intact, however; execution is the most practical method for dealing with criminals. Look at it logically and logistically.

I have, that's why I understand the system doesn't work. You obviously haven't.

 

[(Q)]

Is there any other human endeavor in which you expect absolute perfection? ...and if you don't get it, you shit-can the whole system?

Who said anything about perfection? The current system has a revolving door. It needs to be shit-canned.

You don't want to execute people, yet you complain about over-crowding in prisons. So ....let's just build more and bigger prisons! Problem solved ....WITHOUT letting criminals go free or changing laws that the society obviously wants to keep in place.

That makes no sense.

 

[WillNever]

Uhm, I know this may rock a lot of your boats... but prisons aren't overcrowding due to increases in crime or the number of prison sentences. They are overcrowding due to increased PUNISHMENTS for crimes.

Death penalties are proven to be non-deterrents. The states that have the death penalty officially have more crime than states without it, factually speaking. Therefore, if the death penalty is not a deterrent, then there's no point using the death penalty. Executions only contribute to promoting an internally violent and self-destructive society anyway. It states that violence is the answer to violence, and that killing is the answer to killing. Anyone who doesn't see a problem with that is an irrational person -- and that includes several people in this thread.

Crime has been on the steady decline for YEARS now, and that's a fact. The increase in the prison population, however, is due to draconian sentencing rules that were forced upon the states by the federal government some years ago, in addition to failed "Three Strikes Law" experiments in places like California, who is now being forced to release prisoners. If you want to reduce prison population and the costs associated with that, then Three Strikes Laws and those like it are where you should be directing your attention. Death penalties aren't the answer here. They never were.

 

[Norsefire]

Good.

Then you must agree that prison for any one who isn't violent and a danger to themselves or others is a complete waste.

The imprisoned person is not longer earning a living and must be supported by society so they cost us money and they aren't compensating the victim.

And what's worse, they are being encouraged to become better criminals instead of being encouraged to be better citizens.

It is a expensive system where every one loses.

Duh. That's why I advocate the death penalty

Death penalty : it's justice, and it's the most logical course of action. Eliminate the criminals, and you don't need to waste resources on them.

Neither life nor death is a deterrant so there's no reason NOT to use the death penalty.

 

[WillNever]

That's like saying that there isn't a reason *to* use it either.

Philosophically speaking, the death penalty is barbaric. It promotes the idea that the answer to stop killing is to kill more, which makes no sense. It encourages the use of violence against violence. Such concepts are toxic.

TRUTH: People who support the death penalty in light of the fact that it is not a deterrent nor a long term money saver only support it because they like for others to die.

There are alternatives to making prisoners just sit in prison all day. Different forms of mandatory public labor could be re-instituted in places where they were abolished.

 

[swarm]

Death penalty

You realize you would be one of the first executed under a regime that would apply the death penalty to minor infractions?

That kind of society takes a dim view of people who think they have rights.

N Korea is currently the closest to your ideal. But if you wish you can move there.