A Simple Justice System

swarm said:
That doesn't make it less a lie.
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A lie? According to whom?

Just because you think something is a lie is no sure sign that it is. And even if you think it's a lie, somene else might not think so. Who decides? The person out for revenge, perhaps?

Baron Max
 
Making a religion out of society in order to kill, kill, kill

Norsefire said:

In my opinion vengeance is fair, and vengeance is justice.
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Vengeance - personal, not a nice thing.
Justice - vengeance by the society, a nice thing.
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The problem is that justice is not merely vengeance by society. It is a much broader concept that extends beyond courts, cops, and bad guys. Yet even in this restricted context, justice serves as more than simple collective vengeance.

The proposed justice system, while it is, indeed, simple, is nothing more than a homicide machine. It pays no regard to the broader needs of any society, and may well go so far as to demand that people exist solely for the benefit of an abstraction, e.g., society.

At which point, society would become nothing more than a religion.
 
Humans operate on ideology, Tiassa.

And, explain the purpose of 'justice' if not for fairness and revenge?
 
File under "D"

Norsefire said:

And, explain the purpose of 'justice' if not for fairness and revenge?
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To keep a society secure and prosperous for the sake of its people.
 
Vengeance is emotionally driven, whereas justice is (or is supposed to be) impartial.

Our justice system in the USA does not operate on a system of vengeance. If it operated on a system of vengeance, then it would allow the family members of a murder victim to carry out the execution of a murderer themselves. It would allow someone to sexually abuse someone who first sexually abused them. It would allow us to steal from thieves.

In our system, the victims of crimes are not allowed to deal out punishment. The government does. The closest scenario we have to vengeance is when you sue someone in civil court for damages. But in that case, the judgement that is made is compensatory rather than vengeful. You aren't allowed to take more than what was taken from you.
 
well, there are punitive damages and compensation for pain and suffering but as you said its montory not phyisical
 
WillNever said:
Vengeance is emotionally driven, whereas justice is (or is supposed to be) impartial.
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So are you actually trying to tell me that lawyers, judges and especially the jurors ....put aside any and all of their emotions when they're trying a case? And when the case is done and the sentence is passed out, that there was no human emotions involved anywhere, any time, during the trial?

But regardless of who metes out the punishment, either gov or victim or victims society members or....., it's plain vengeance and, to me, there's simply no getting around that fact. The punishment to the convict is to exact revenge for his actions ...regardless of who does the punishing.

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:
So are you actually trying to tell me that lawyers, judges and especially the jurors ....put aside any and all of their emotions when they're trying a case? And when the case is done and the sentence is passed out, that there was no human emotions involved anywhere, any time, during the trial?
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Nay, that's something that came out of your own brain. Stupid ideas come from people with stupid brains. You need to go back and reread my post. The criminal justice system is designed to be impartial. That doesn't mean lawyers are. Lawyers are required by law to make the best case possible in order for their client to have the best chance at succeeding in criminal court. That is because we as a society believe that the harder each side fights to make their case, and the better their arguments, the closer we come to the absolute truth in a matter. Truth is a vital part of exacting justice.
But regardless of who metes out the punishment, either gov or victim or victims society members or....., it's plain vengeance and, to me, there's simply no getting around that fact. The punishment to the convict is to exact revenge for his actions ...regardless of who does the punishing.

Baron Max
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That's because you see things in stupid terms. The punishment is designed to (1) deter others, and (2) to provide meaning to our laws. If we didn't punish those who broke the law, the laws would cease to be followed. In the final analysis, punishment is about justice. Not vengeance. If it were vengeance, we'd let the victims directly punish criminals because they were the ones who were most wronged. We don't allow victims to do that.

That's why we call it the criminal justice system, not the criminal vengeance system.

Case closed. :cool:
 
Then justice is revenge carried out by the state.

Revenge plays a massive role, perhaps the largest, in "justice". Punishment is both the revenge and the penalty, with the ultimate penalty being death, of course.
 
Revenge is simply the act of doing damage in return for damage done. You can call almost anything revenge, under that definition... but the kind of revenge that baron max is based on anger by the innocent party. In the eyes of the law, the innocent party's anger doesn't matter. Therefore, American justice isn't about vengeance in the context of someone's anger. It's about making our laws have meaning, so they are actually followed. :cool:
 
I agree that penalties serve a larger practical purpose but justice itself is the revenge. The rest is simply more pragmatic, as you said, to make the laws have value.
 
First, WillNever, why are you so quick to call people stupid and to make your arguments so personal? Can't you debate issues without resorting to attacks against the other person?

WillNever said:
... In the final analysis, punishment is about justice. Not vengeance. If it were vengeance, we'd let the victims directly punish criminals because they were the ones who were most wronged. We don't allow victims to do that. ...
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The appoints people (the district attorney) to represent the victims. And it's no less than what, say, a relative or the family of the victim might do ....seek vengeance against the accused for his actions. It's vengeance, plain and simple. You can call it "justice" is you'd like, and many people do, but that doesn't change the fact that it's plain and simple revenge for the illegal actions.

If you respond, WillNever, please try to do so without the childish name-calling and personal attacks.

Baron Max
 
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