A Request Directed to Sciforums' "Atheists"

[Balerion]

Gremmie, I have seen you be a very reasonable guy, and I've come to respect you. I don't think we've gotten to the point of "mods vs posters" so much as some mods and some members have bad blood between em. As to who is at fault there... I would say it's an even 50/50 split. On that vein - the fact that you expect Bells to be abusive and Tiassa to ban you... that worries me. Is that really the view you have those two?

You seem surprised. How is that even possible? Did you not see the OP by Tiassa? Did you not see Bells calling GeoffP an idiot? Those two are probably the biggest trolls on the site, and people notice it. You keep chalking it up to "bad blood," but the reaction of the forum at large should tell you otherwise. It has everything to do with their behavior.

*sighs* I dunno... I've been doing what I can to try and step between a few members and mods to try and let things settle, especially after all the bullshit with Syne... lets face it, tensions were high already, and the Syne thing just made those tensions run way past the boiling point... but if mods and members alike aren't ready to let go of past grievances, there is shit all I can do... but lets face it- are we REALLY going to start holding grudges over the internet (or, perhaps I should say, are we so petty as to CONTINUE to do so?)

Is that what you call it? What I've seen is you defend Bells and Tiassa while dismissing all complaints against them as "vendettas" (which just so happens to be how Tiassa and Bells themselves deflect criticism. How's the Kool-Aid?). You wonder why it hasn't been productive? Lol! It's because these are legitimate complaints that continue to be proven right every time either of them post.

 

[Bells]

You seem surprised. How is that even possible? Did you not see the OP by Tiassa? Did you not see Bells calling GeoffP an idiot? Those two are probably the biggest trolls on the site, and people notice it. You keep chalking it up to "bad blood," but the reaction of the forum at large should tell you otherwise. It has everything to do with their behavior.

And you called him a "cunt". And god knows what you called me in a post that was so bad you had to delete it after you realised your mistake. So yeah, "behaviour".

Did you understand the context in which I called GeoffP an idiot? Did you see the giant koala meme that followed it and what it was in response to? Oh wait, no, that wouldn't do, would it? Jokes just kind of pass you by, don't they?

Gremmie accused me of calling her a fucktard and apparently abusing her in a spray. I'd like to know where I did this. I understand she has a lot to be angry about and if she wants someone to just scream at, I'll happily comply. But I'd rather she not base that on a lie.

 

[Balerion]

And you called him a "cunt".

Privately, away from the forums. And i said, "why are you acting like a cunt." There's a difference.

And god knows what you called me in a post that was so bad you had to delete it after you realised your mistake. So yeah, "behaviour".

Lol! Nice try, troll.

Gremmie accused me of calling her a fucktard and apparently abusing her in a spray. I'd like to know where I did this. I understand she has a lot to be angry about and if she wants someone to just scream at, I'll happily comply. But I'd rather she not base that on a lie.

You mean ANOTHER member complaining about your abusive bullshit? Are we supposed to be surprised, Bells?

At this point, I bet the list of people you HAVEN'T mistreated is smaller.

 

[Bells]

Privately, away from the forums. And i said, "why are you acting like a cunt." There's a difference.

So it's okay if you do it in private.

Lol! Nice try, troll.

I always notice that when you are on the back foot, you start or end your sentences with "lol" and call whoever you are arguing with a troll. Are you denying you did all of that?

You mean ANOTHER member complaining about your abusive bullshit? Are we supposed to be surprised, Bells?

At this point, I bet the list of people you HAVEN'T mistreated is smaller.

Can you find the post where I supposedly abused her and called her a fucktard?

 

[Gremmie]

Okay... First of all, I'm a he, not a she... I think even most of the noobs know this.

Bells, you and I have exchanged PM's over the years, you know my name... Definitely not a female.
You want me to cite where I claimed you called me a fucktard... Show me where I claimed that you actually did...

As usual, you twisted what I said, to make an argument...

You are dishonest at every turn... You accuse everyone of playing the victim, but, you actually play the victim role quite nicely yourself...

Seriously, even if I didn't know you were a lawyer, I'd assume you were. That, or a politician.

Please stop the bullshit, no one buys it anymore.

And, Tiassa can speak for himself, if he feels the need... Enough already. Seriously.

 

[Balerion]

So it's okay if you do it in private.

It's none of your business if it happens in private. The rules of the forum don't apply to our private lives. (Which is different than your deal, where the rules of the forum don't apply on the forum.

I always notice that when you are on the back foot, you start or end your sentences with "lol" and call whoever you are arguing with a troll. Are you denying you did all of that?

I use lol when someone says something funny--though you probably wouldn't like why I find your words funny. And I call people trolls when they're trolling.

And of course I don't deny deleting a post made in error. What I deny is that I said anything untoward about you. I believe the worst I said was that you are a liar--which you are, but you weren't lying in that case, so I removed the post. Anyway, you know administrators. I'm sure you could recover the post if you're curious.

Can you find the post where I supposedly abused her and called her a fucktard?

Can you see the part where HE said "pretty much"? It was an insinuation, per Gremmie. I'm sure you know the difference.

 

[Bells]

Okay... First of all, I'm a he, not a she... I think even most of the noobs know this.

I did not.

Bells, you and I have exchanged PM's over the years, you know my name...

You have never told me your name.

Definitely not a female.

Okay then, my apologies. I was always under the impression that you were a woman.

You want me to cite where I claimed you called me a fucktard... Show me where I claimed that you actually did...

Correction, you said that I will basically call you a fucktard and apparently gave you an abusive spray. Can you please link where I gave you this abusive spray?

As usual, you twisted what I said, to make an argument...

If that is what you wish to believe, go for it.

You are dishonest at every turn... You accuse everyone of playing the victim, but, you actually play the victim role quite nicely yourself...

Okay.

Seriously, even if I didn't know you were a lawyer, I'd assume you were. That, or a politician.

I am still trying to figure out why you are so angry with me and accusing me of "An insulting,abusive rant from Bells..." Can you show me where I did this to you, please?

Please stop the bullshit, no one buys it anymore.

As I said Gremmie, you have every single reason to be angry. And if you want to use me as your punching bag, then literally, go for it. But don't base it on a lie. Base it on anything or nothing at all, but not a lie, okay?

I won't argue with you Gremmie and you know full well why I will not. So if you want to let it off your chest, then go for it. I'm all eyes and ears and I won't fight you back.

And, Tiassa can speak for himself, if he feels the need... Enough already. Seriously.

Who has said that he could not speak for himself?

 

[Gremmie]

OK... Where to begin.

You jumped my ass, my third day here, almost four years ago
You accused me of being a sock. Even questioned my sanity...
You recall that? I sure as hell do. I'm sure a few old timers recall that as well...

You did later apologize, however, sorry, followed by "but", is another way of saying, fuck you.

I save PM's... Yeah, I'm anal like that.

I've always left my name at the end...so, you are the liar, not me...

I have no problem displaying any and all PMs...

Don't fuck with me Bells... You are vicious and vindictive, I get that... But, I have nothing to lose.

You know my name, just as I know yours...

Why do you lie, and say you've never known it?

You are quite clever, even astute...

When you were sick, I stood by you. Maybe you've forgotten that... Now, you treat me like you did when I was a noob.

I thought we had an understanding... I was clearly wrong. My bad.

You play word games with me... You do recall, I have a degree in Psyche, yes?... Why play games? I might not always win, but, I'll always play... Get it?

 

[Bells]

OK... Where to begin.

You jumped my ass, my third day here, almost four years ago
You accused me of being a sock. Even questioned my sanity...
You recall that? I sure as hell do. I'm sure a few old timers recall that as well...

You did later apologize, however, sorry, followed by "but", is another way of saying, fuck you.

I save PM's... Yeah, I'm anal like that.

I've always left my name at the end...so, you are the liar, not me...

I have no problem displaying any and all PMs...

Don't fuck with me Bells... You are vicious and vindictive, I get that... But, I have nothing to lose.

You know my name, just as I know yours...

Why do you lie, and say you've never known it?

You are quite clever, even astute...

When you were sick, I stood by you. Maybe you've forgotten that... Now, you treat me like you did when I was a noob.

I thought we had an understanding... I was clearly wrong. My bad.

You play word games with me... You do recall, I have a degree in Psyche, yes?... Why play games? I might not always win, but, I'll always play... Get it?

From four years ago.. Okay then..

I don't recall ever seeing your name in a PM. I think I would have remembered that. Your latest PM's since your return to this site after a few years away (was a few years wasn't it?) - you did not put your name in them. I also have those PM's. And there is no name in the ones you sent me since your return.

If I have put your name in PM's to me before you took your leave of this site a few years ago, you have my apologies, I do not remember it. Edit to add.. I just went back through my PM's.. I got one from you in 2012 where you signed your name. I sincerely apologise. It's not something I do often and it's usually only when I'm going through something that would make me forget something like that.. which at the time, it wasn't an easy time for me, as you well know. So you have my apologies. It is unforgivable of me to have made such an error.

Since you are intent on being angry with me about something that apparently happened 4 years ago and it seems something happening now, then so be it. I am not going to get angry back at you Gremmie. You know why I won't respond to you in kind. As I said, go nuts. Say whatever you want about me, to me, whatever. If you feel better afterwards, then good. If you don't, then swear, abuse me, scream at me until you do feel better. Okay? So go nuts. Let it all out. I'm not going to turn away from you because of it. No matter what you may think about me, I do care about you. So go nuts. Call me every single name under the sun. Let it all out. I'm right here and I always will be.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Some people are still angry about what happened to Jesus.
And that was nearly 2000 years ago.

 

[Gremmie]

Some people are still angry about what happened to Jesus.
And that was nearly 2000 years ago.

Just goes to show ya... Time doesn't necessarily heal all wounds.

BTW... Welcome back Cap'n K...

 

[GeoffP]

I swear, you make me want to stick burning coals in my eyes.

Well don't let me stop you getting on with what you want to do in your life.

To clarify, so that you stop misrepresenting what I say.

Those who attempt to convert people to atheism and who are abusive and insulting (ie Dawkins, Harris, etc) do more harm than good because it is such individuals who practise atheism (read many of the links I provided in this thread, written by atheists who also share the same concern that there are some who virtually treat atheism as though it is a religious dogma and an organisation) like it is akin to a religious movement. By now, you should know how much I detest evangelical or fundamentalist outlooks. People like Dawkins, Harris, etc, are evangelical. And frankly, they do more harm than good.

Thankyou for this long-awaited clarification. Was that so hard? But you need to realise that practising atheists come in all forms, not merely Dawkins and Harris. Even Dawkins makes a good point now and then, although his condescension is sorely misplaced.

Does this clear things up for you?

Or do I need to draw you pictures of why I think the so called new atheism is evangelical and dangerous and how and why those who spout this kind of crap under the name of 'atheism' tarnish all atheists?

Please. At no time did I misunderstand or misrepresent the threat of atheist militancy. I underscore, however, that the worst they're up to is picketing things and pressing offensive lawsuits. Now, does this change your perspective on the freedom of speech? Where do you stand there?

You're an idiot. Honestly, do you know nothing? THIS is priceless:

Yours is just cliché.

/Waits for the "you're a moderator, how dare you say that to me"..

Not done vomiting yet. Or is she going to beat the offensive Australian with the branches of the tree? That would be acceptable in the circumstances.

 

[Kittamaru]

Okay, you know what... Geoff, Bells, you two both go sit in separate corners for a while... seriously, this blood feud ya'll got going on is kinda lame... I don't care who started it, I'm ending it... don't make me turn this Koala around!

On a more serious note - lets face facts here... neither one of you is going to convince the other of... whatever the original point of this debate even was. So, I propose a compromise: Lets bury the hatchet, here and now. Whatever happened in the past is in the past, plain and simple. From here on out, make it a new day. You can both be civil and whatnot to one another, even if you disagree - that is just good debating. If ya'll have some conflict like this going forward, lets get it mediated instead of letting it fester into some ugly boil of malice and grief, aight?

 

[Bells]

Well don't let me stop you getting on with what you want to do in your life.

Nah.

My job here is not to make you happy or bring you joy. Plus my youngest has told me that his goal is to fart strongly enough to fly. I'll need to see it, take photos and film it to put on youtube apparently. Kid's got goals. Mummy needs to be able to see it (not to mention be able to call the paramedics when he plummets to his doom - he think's he's going high..)..

Thankyou for this long-awaited clarification. Was that so hard? But you need to realise that practising atheists come in all forms, not merely Dawkins and Harris. Even Dawkins makes a good point now and then, although his condescension is sorely misplaced.

Never said that was not the case.

Please. At no time did I misunderstand or misrepresent the threat of atheist militancy. I underscore, however, that the worst they're up to is picketing things and pressing offensive lawsuits. Now, does this change your perspective on the freedom of speech? Where do you stand there?

They have grown. Harris suggests we should consider killing people of certain beliefs. Because you know, it worked so well last time.... (yes, that was sarcasm). Or Dawkins who suggests that Hitler went wrong by classifying Jews as a race.. Apparently he didn't go wrong when he committed genocide.

Not done vomiting yet. Or is she going to beat the offensive Australian with the branches of the tree? That would be acceptable in the circumstances.

Beating it makes it angry...

 

[Kittamaru]

Speaking of things in Australia fucking you up...

Or how about Morroco... which has a spider able to cartwheel...

AT OVER TWO METERS PER SECOND

Yeah... NOPE!

 

[GeoffP]

Some people are still angry about what happened to Jesus.
And that was nearly 2000 years ago.

Fucking Romans. What have they ever done for us?

 

[Trooper]

Meh, when my dad died, it was Gods will... When my son died, it was Gods will... When my mom died it was also Gods will.

I'll be gone soon too... God spends a lot of time in my life. Wish he didn't.

How soon, Gremmie, do you have an estimate? A friend of mine’s mother is dying. They aren't allowed to talk about it. People are funny, huh? They prepare for your arrival but not your departure. Do you have adequate emotional support?

There’s this new thing called a death café. It’s based on the ideas of Bernard Crettaz, to increase awareness about death. I was thinking about asking my friend if she’d like to go. I’ll have to play it by ear, though.

Dying to Talk

Why I Talk About Death

Good day to you, Gremmie.

 

[Gremmie]

How soon, Gremmie, do you have an estimate? A friend of mine’s mother is dying. They aren't allowed to talk about it. People are funny, huh? They prepare for your arrival but not your departure. Do you have adequate emotional support?

There’s this new thing called a death café. It’s based on the ideas of Bernard Crettaz, to increase awareness about death. I was thinking about asking my friend if she’d like to go. I’ll have to play it by ear, though.

Dying to Talk

Why I Talk About Death

Good day to you, Gremmie.

I have very little support... Family and friends prefer to keep things on the down low.

If you ignore it, it will go away... Meh.

As to an expiration date, already past due. I'm hoping to see my 50th b-day in August though.

Then, whatever happens, happens... It's been a good run.

Sometimes the "cure" is worse than the ailment.

 

[Yazata]

Fair enough Yazata - and I thank you, honestly I do, for remaining civil and succinct. You are right - the larger problem is assholism, as you so eloquently put it - I'm a huge fan of George Carlin's rendition of the Ten Commandments- in the end, he condenses them down to a single commandment: Don't be an Asshole. Honestly, I can see God looking at that and going "Yeah, pretty much!"

The question now is... how do we correct it? The animosity is already there and, apparently, growing between members and moderators (and vice versa)... how do we resolve that?

As things stand, when one moderator behaves badly (and several seem to do it habitually) and when rank-and-file participants start to complain, the rest of the moderators all seem to pull together in defensive solidarity, either defending their bad-acting mate, trying desperately to change the subject, or else maintaining a stolid 'I see nothing' silence.

It's just hypocritical when moderators attack us for our own supposed ethical failings (as is happening in this thread), while at the same time some moderators don't seem to believe that they need to conform to the same standards themselves.

When regular Sciforums participants see that happening, and it's all too commmon around here, they grow increasingly contemptuous of Sciforums moderation in general.

So here's my suggestion: If you are going to moderate the Religion forum, don't let anyone, especially other moderators, shit on your board.

Apply the same standards to everyone. (Even yourself, when you violate them, apologize.)

If somebody leaves a big steaming turd in the Religion forum, tell them publicly that you don't appreciate it. If they are regular participants, do your warnings-and-bans stuff as appropriate. If they are other moderators and you lack any power to sanction them, at least publically express your displeasure. It's vitally important that you do that.

That way the rank-and-file participants on the forum will be more likely to think of you as an honest and fair referee, perhaps even a friend.

 

[Yazata]

Hey, Gremmie. I'm not real big on prayer I guess, being an atheist and all, but you're in my thoughts. Hang in there and keep posting.