A Request Directed to Sciforums' "Atheists"
- Thread starter Tiassa
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No, I hold no such beliefs, I hold an understanding of those things. Do you not?
I have no problem with other ways of "thinking", but the proselytizing of religions is not about thinking.
But, that's putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. I don't ever need to talk about atheism if it weren't for theism in the first place and the fact that it is in the public eye.
That's what they all say. SOME religions are highly exclusionary, but not ours. The problem is that faith is a slippery slope, and moderate religions like yours lead people to actually take the word of the Bible seriously, and there are some nasty things in there. There are actually circumstances in which it says it's OK to throw rocks at your children until they die for what they say or believe. Although secular society has outlawed this, an all too common outcome is estrangement from one's family if you dare not to believe what they believe.
That's a reprehensible trend on the part of the UN. I'm shocked you would advocate it. They would actually seek to outlaw, for instance, criticism of religion, especially Islam. Christopher Hitchens has commented extensively on this subject.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2009/03/dont_say_a_word.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASpZhGQE7MU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck_FMAWzfVA
Frankly, this makes you the biggest hypocrite on this forum.
My statements are not lies, nor are their veiled at all. Keep telling yourself that though... seems to make you more comfortable with your grand delusion of what "fair" is.
About what I expected... you don't even have the guts to hear something that might contradict your worldview and prove just how wrong your opinions are...
By your own words:
Notice the recurring theme here... we are free to practice our religion... only so long as we are out of sight. That is OPPRESSION.
Now, I await your apology for your libelous statement that I was lying.
I dunno... I'll tell you how sad it is if/when it starts happening. What I can tell you is how pathetic your blindness to your own hatred is.
I would like, at this time, to request you provide evidence to back your claims, as well as for you to lay out, in whatever terms you desire, your claims on how life, the universe, and everything works.
I expect multiple sources with proper citations.
Failure to do so will be recognized as a failure of ability to do so.
After all, we are, first and foremost, a scientific community - if you are claiming an understanding of such things, you best be ready to prove it.
SO, in short, (Q)... put up or shut up.
Who said anything about certainty? I can hold an understanding about something without holding a belief in it.
My claims about life, the universe and how everything works? I made no such claims, but I understand you must fabricate lies in order to defend your position.
So, you are asking me to prove my understanding of scientific concepts? LOL. Hilarious.
Kittamaru, you have to admit that we live in a country where we are kowtowing to irrational beliefs. I was at a military ceremony recently where we were all asked to join in prayer. I didn't like it. I was extremely uncomfortable, and quite frankly, very concerned that our military leaders, hell, even our president believed in this stuff. Praying doesn't exude confidence, you know.
"Merely being present at a military ceremony or event where a military chaplain says a solemnizing prayer, however, does not violate the First Amendment, since no person is being compelled or pressured to assent to any belief, no person is being asked to participate in religious worship, and no person is being asked to engage in a religious act."
It’s bullshit, Kittamaru. They are told to bow their fucking heads. They are told to go to church or clean the barracks. Google it, if you don't believe me.
Prayer and Religion in the Military
"Merely being present at a military ceremony or event where a military chaplain says a solemnizing prayer, however, does not violate the First Amendment, since no person is being compelled or pressured to assent to any belief, no person is being asked to participate in religious worship, and no person is being asked to engage in a religious act."
It’s bullshit, Kittamaru. They are told to bow their fucking heads. They are told to go to church or clean the barracks. Google it, if you don't believe me.
Prayer and Religion in the Military
No official in the US government or armed forces—regardless of rank or station—has the right to compel or pressure any other person (1) to assent to any specific philosophy or religious belief or creed, (2) to participate in a religious worship service (such as forcing someone to attend a chapel worship service—unless that person is on duty, for example, serving as a member of an honor guard or a color guard at a funeral or other ceremony), or (3) to engage in a religious act (even so simple an act as being asked to join hands with others when a short prayer of blessing is said over a Thanksgiving or Christmas meal in the military dining facility). Merely being present at a military ceremony or event where a military chaplain says a solemnizing prayer, however, does not violate the First Amendment, since no person is being compelled or pressured to assent to any belief, no person is being asked to participate in religious worship, and no person is being asked to engage in a religious act.
Likewise, no official in the US Government or armed forces—regardless of rank or station—has the right to compel or pressure a chaplain (or any other person, such as a lay religious leader on a naval vessel or someone else asked to pray) to pray in any particular manner. Instead, the chaplain or other person should be free to follow his conscience and the traditions of his specific faith group and to pray as he deems appropriate in the circumstances. Allowing a person to pray as he desires does not violate the establishment clause, whereas directing how he prays or pressuring him to pray in a certain way does violate the establishment clause. See Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. at 588–89 (noting that it is inappropriate for a government official to tell a member of the clergy how to pray).
http://aclj.org/military-rights/prayer-and-religion-in-the-military
Likewise, no official in the US Government or armed forces—regardless of rank or station—has the right to compel or pressure a chaplain (or any other person, such as a lay religious leader on a naval vessel or someone else asked to pray) to pray in any particular manner. Instead, the chaplain or other person should be free to follow his conscience and the traditions of his specific faith group and to pray as he deems appropriate in the circumstances. Allowing a person to pray as he desires does not violate the establishment clause, whereas directing how he prays or pressuring him to pray in a certain way does violate the establishment clause. See Lee v. Weisman, 505 U.S. at 588–89 (noting that it is inappropriate for a government official to tell a member of the clergy how to pray).
http://aclj.org/military-rights/prayer-and-religion-in-the-military
What made you uncomfortable? Did anyone single you out and attack you for not believing the same as them? What difference does it make if our military leaders believe in God, Jesus, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster; so long as they are capable of performing their duties, what relevance is it to their position?
I can google a lot of things... and I'm not saying you are wrong. At the same time, homosexuals in the military also find themselves under fire. Women in the military find themselves under fire. Does this mean that women and homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to serve?
You are laying blame at the feet of religion... an idea, an inanimate object. It CANNOT be held responsible for what people do any more than a gun can be held responsible for the fact that some crazy half-wit decided to use it to shoot up a school. The problem is PEOPLE.
I'm not sure what the spoiler was supposed to show... if anything, it explains how it is improper and against regulation for anyone, theist or atheist, to try and tell others how to act...
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Because I'm the Linguistics Moderator and you have committed an error in the use of language. One which, if uncorrected, could greatly muddle this discussion.
Bigots hate ideas, not people. If your neighbor, co-worker, brother or child is intolerant of your political beliefs, your spirituality, your notions about racism, or your taste in music, do you hate him, despite the fact that you appreciate him 99% of the time?
I'll let it go with an informal warning this time, but that is a violation of the SciForums rules. Do it again and you might find yourself taking another little vacation. I wonder how many of the members will miss you.
American exceptionalism for one thing. We are not God-blessed.
"I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace, a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity, and if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here. That's how I saw it and see it still...."—Ronald Reagan
"The man who prays is the one who thinks that god has arranged matters all wrong, but who also thinks that he can instruct god how to put them right."― Christopher Hitchens
Exactly, it shows how it is improper to force religion on people, but it happens, it does, in schools, the military, and in the public workplace.Kittamaru said:
As far as the Exceptionalism goes... honestly, I think you will find that in most countries to an extent - a sense that their country is somehow better than others.
Indeed, forcing religion on people happens. As does forcing a lot of other things on people. Heck in many US schools now, it's against the rules (and an offense punishable with suspension or worse) to HUG someone!
Military leaders are representatives of the government, which is not allowed to show preference for religion or lack of it. When they speak at an official event, separation of church and state applies to their speech.
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