A Request Directed to Sciforums' "Atheists"

[Kittamaru]

Post

Bale, I'm going to apologize in advance - I just don't have it in me to reply to all of that right now - woke up this morning with a killer migraine (that just won't go away) and I feel like something is trying to claw its way out of the back of my throat.

I just need to ask though - you keep saying that denying people the right to pray in public isn't somehow denying them their fundamental freedom of worship... how do you figure? Your comparison that one's freedom to religion can be stopped with regards to sacrifice of a child doesn't really hold up because that act (sacrifice of a life) passes into the realm of illegal and violating the rights of another, not to mention certain basic moral principles. Public prayer does none of these... it doesn't hurt anyone. After all, if you don't like what you are hearing, simply disregard it and move on. Much the same as if a theist doesn't like what they are hearing from an atheist, they are free to simply disregard it and move on.

How would you feel if the decision was made that Atheists were "free to be atheists behind closed doors" but had to put up a theistic front when out in public because Christianity dictated it? You would be enraged and dismayed, right?

Well, that's exactly what you are trying to say Theists should do... that we can only be religious at home and when out in public we have to put up an atheist front.

 

[Grumpy]

quinnsong

Oh no, she will have none of that. Unfortunately she is about as Fundamentalist as you can get, a fire and brimstone kinda gal. No talking reason with a Southern Baptist right wing conservative who believes in demons. Wanna try? lol

I feel what you are saying. I was raised by a fundy Baptist Missionary. Let's just say we lived in different worlds. My father had anger issues, and the thing most likely to pop his cork was questioning his authority and knowledge of the world. It shaped my personality and all three of his children are now Atheists(because we all got lots of first hand experience of the idiocy that is magical thinking). He received lots of confirmation and respect from his fellow travelers, but he wasted his life as far as I am concerned. Yes, he did some good works, but he could have done those things without the damage his magical thinking did and actually come out ahead of the game of life, instead his delusions did much more harm than the good it inspired. My father's religion did not make him a better man, it made him a dupe, a victim and a fool. And it made my childhood a misery.

Grumpy

 

[Kittamaru]

quinnsong



I feel what you are saying. I was raised by a fundy Baptist Missionary. Let's just say we lived in different worlds. My father had anger issues, and the thing most likely to pop his cork was questioning his authority and knowledge of the world. It shaped my personality and all three of his children are now Atheists(because we all got lots of first hand experience of the idiocy that is magical thinking). He received lots of confirmation and respect from his fellow travelers, but he wasted his life as far as I am concerned. Yes, he did some good works, but he could have done those things without the damage his magical thinking did and actually come out ahead of the game of life, instead his delusions did much more harm than the good it inspired. My father's religion did not make him a better man, it made him a dupe, a victim and a fool. And it made my childhood a misery.

Grumpy

See, I grew up in a similar but opposite situation - my father didn't even come to church to witness my mother, grandfather, and myself take part in the musical program... but he was an angry drunk that couldn't stand to have his "authority" questioned in the slightest. He was physically and verbally abusive... one of the happiest days of my life is, no joke, the day we got to put him on a plane and ship his ass back to England where he can be drunk all he wants and he doesn't bother us. It was, quite literally, an eye opening experience for me... I had a perfect example of how NOT to conduct myself, both in the everyday and in dealing with unexpected situations. He had no faith at all... in anything really... and so when things didn't go his way, he would simply get enraged and try the "bigger hammer" and "hit it harder" philosophy... when that inevitably failed, he would storm off to imbibe more alcohol or stand there and just rage at whatever it was that had foiled him. He had nothing to carry him past his failures.

While I don't wish to claim faith in a higher power is the only thing that can get you past such an obstacle, it is pretty obvious that for some it is the first thing they turn to... and often with impressive results.

 

[Trooper]

There is no politically correct way to say this, so I'll just say it; I wonder what her response would be to learn that the concept of "hell" as an "eternal torment" is actually derived from pagan beliefs...

There is no politically correct way to say this, so I'll just say it; I wonder what your response would be to learn that the whole concept of 'God' is actually derived from ancient mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_mythology

Did you know that in Nietzsche’s "Thus Spoke Zarathustra," the name of this character was taken from the ancient prophet Zoroaster (Zarathustra), who was the founder of Zoroastrianism.

"Most scholars believe that key concepts of Zoroastrian eschatology and demonology influenced the Abrahamic religions. Zoroaster is almost always depicted with a beard, this along with other factors bearing similarities to 19th-century portraits of Jesus. This conception of angels is best understood in contrast to demons and is often thought to be "influenced by the ancient Persian religious tradition of Zoroastrianism, which viewed the world as a battleground between forces of good and forces of evil, between light and darkness."

"Mesopotamian religion is thought to have been a major influence on subsequent religions throughout the world, including Canaanite, Aramean, ancient Greek, and Phoenician religions, and also monotheistic religions such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_myth#Sumerian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mythology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_mythology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_influences_in_the_Hebrew_Bible

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panbabylonianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion


P.S. Sorry to hear that you're not feel well.

 

[Kittamaru]

There is no politically correct way to say this, so I'll just say it; I wonder what your response would be to learn that the whole concept of 'God' is actually derived from ancient mythology.
P.S. Sorry to hear that you're not feel well.

Well of course it's all from ancient mythology; after all, it is all stuff dictated by human minds and interpretations. It doesn't change the belief that there is something there, even if we aren't 100% on what it is... which is borderline agnostic I know.

 

[(Q)]

You don't have a right to respect. Free speech is more important.

This draft principle addresses one of the most difficult issues for freedom of expression. It balances an essential respect for the humanity, dignity and personal choice of every individual believer with an equally vital freedom to question the claims of any belief system, organisation or group.

"The UN’s Human Rights Committee... authoritative interpretation of Article 19 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states that, “Prohibitions of displays of lack of respect for a religion or other belief system, including blasphemy laws, are incompatible with the Covenant.” Such displays must not, however, violate Article 20′s ban on, “Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence.”

http://freespeechdebate.com/en/principle/p-7/is-nothing-sacred/

 

[(Q)]

I was responding to this response to Bells:

Putting Bells emotionally charged rant aside, she would like to know how this is perceived by the public.

In 2001, victims of the El Salvador earthquake had to sit through a half hour prayer meeting before receiving assistance (publicly funded aid) from this organization.

No Bells, the public did not perceive this in a positive light at all.

In 2003, Franklin Graham, stated that Islam is a "very evil and wicked religion" leading to opposition campaigns by Islamic leaders.

Again Bells, the public did not perceive this in a positive light at all.

This organization has been criticized (publicly) in the UK, Canada, the United States, Ireland and other countries. The British supermarket chain, Co-op, and South Wales Fire Service both suspended their support for the project after numerous complaints about its religious connections.

You see Bells, there is a great deal of negativity perceived by the public as a result of this organizations evangelistic motives over actual care for people.

Do you even care about the fact this organization thumbs their noses at the law in order to spread the gospel, before offering publicly funded aid to victims?

As it appears, you do not care. You must feel that they are above the law and can do whatever they want in order to convert others?

That is not cherry picking, that is a direct response to Bells example, which shows her example to be bogus.

Is there a problem with that?

 

[(Q)]

Do you realize that you are acting like a petulant child? Grow up!

Do you realize you're a hypocrite?

 

[Kittamaru]

Do you realize you're a hypocrite?

 

[(Q)]

Which insult would that be?

So, you felt compelled to lie, now? How very convenient.

Did he insult your intelligence by correcting your incorrect understanding of the word Bigot?

No, he didn't. But, since you have conveniently forgotten the insult, I made a thread about it. Oh wait, you actually responded on that thread, which would show you are a bold faced liar.

In fact, that seems to be the only time Fraggle Rocker was addressing YOU at all in the last 48 hours / several pages.

Yes, that would confirm you are a liar.

So, yeah, go ahead and call me names. Rant and rave all you like. Rage impotently against your cage like a rabid animal all you like... all it does is showcase your apparent inability to hold a debate without sinking to personal attacks, baseless accusations, and copious amounts of profanity... what a mature and level headed approach

More lies. Keep em coming. It shows just how bad the moderators are here and how much they need to resign.

 

[Trooper]

Well of course it's all from ancient mythology; after all, it is all stuff dictated by human minds and interpretations. It doesn't change the belief that there is something there, even if we aren't 100% on what it is... which is borderline agnostic I know.

[video=youtube_share;BBCFQtDLPA0]http://youtu.be/BBCFQtDLPA0[/video]

I'm sorry, Kittamaru. We are just animals. Special only to us. We may have a deep need to believe because we require acceptance. Unfortunately, religion reinforces the "us and them" mentality.

 

[(Q)]

The sad thing is I take no joy in this. I just cant stand to see how much some people would want to rescind a religious persons ability to worship as they want... it is a founding principle of our nation here

No one is rescinding anything, you are simply being asked to keep your religion behind closed doors as a sign of respect for others considering your religion openly disrespects them and they don't want to hear it. You feel compelled to bring it out in public knowingly understanding it does disrespect others, but you don't care about that. That's called being selfish.

 

[Kittamaru]

So, you felt compelled to lie, now? How very convenient.



No, he didn't. But, since you have conveniently forgotten the insult, I made a thread about it. Oh wait, you actually responded on that thread, which would show you are a bold faced liar.




Yes, that would confirm you are a liar.



More lies. Keep em coming. It shows just how bad the moderators are here and how much they need to resign.

Oh, you're still hung up on that old thing? My bad, I thought you were talking about something relevant to the current conversation in this thread... heaven forbid I expect you to be on topic... guess I should know better by now, you angry, petulant little thing.

 

[Kittamaru]

No one is rescinding anything, you are simply being asked to keep your religion behind closed doors as a sign of respect for others considering your religion openly disrespects them and they don't want to hear it. You feel compelled to bring it out in public knowingly understanding it does disrespect others, but you don't care about that. That's called being selfish.

Not at all; you are the one being disrespectful by pretending to have any knowledge whatsoever on a topic you are so obviously woefully unaware of. The challenge stands; come to my church for even one service and tell me how anything we say or do is disrespectful to anyone not of our faith.

And again, forcing one group to keep their beliefs behind closed doors is oppression, plain and simple.

 

[Trooper]

No one is rescinding anything, you are simply being asked to keep your religion behind closed doors as a sign of respect for others considering your religion openly disrespects them and they don't want to hear it. You feel compelled to bring it out in public knowingly understanding it does disrespect others, but you don't care about that. That's called being selfish.

It needs to be discussed openly. No one should be hushed.

 

[(Q)]

It needs to be discussed openly. No one should be hushed.

No one is being hushed. It is a request to all believers, not an ultimatum. I have no problem with discussions of religions on religious forums.

 

[(Q)]

Not at all; you are the one being disrespectful by pretending to have any knowledge whatsoever on a topic you are so obviously woefully unaware of.

You can keep making up lies all you want to defend your house of cards, they are thinly veiled.

The challenge stands; come to my church for even one service and tell me how anything we say or do is disrespectful to anyone not of our faith.

I don't need to go to another church or hear another preacher tell me what to believe and how to behave based on their immoral and unethical religious fantasies.

And again, forcing one group to keep their beliefs behind closed doors is oppression, plain and simple.

Wow, you are still trotting out the lie about being forced.

Notice how believers are compelled to fabricate lies in order to defend their beliefs? How sad is that.

 

[Trooper]

No one is being hushed. It is a request to all believers, not an ultimatum. I have no problem with discussions of religions on religious forums.

Why? Science and religion both make claims about the fundamental workings of the universe. Are you too inept to defend your belief?

 

[(Q)]

Oh, you're still hung up on that old thing?

Yes, I do understand that you moderators are so complacent sitting atop your ivory towers and think little about breaking the very rules you are supposed to uphold, but that is the problem here entirely.

My bad, I thought you were talking about something relevant to the current conversation in this thread... heaven forbid I expect you to be on topic... guess I should know better by now, you angry, petulant little thing.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm talking about. Thank you for making my point.

 

[(Q)]

Why? Science and religion both make claims about the fundamental workings of the universe.

What does that have to do with anything? We are all capable of picking up a bible and reading it ourselves.

Are you too inept to defend your belief?

What belief?