A race horse

[iceaura]

Of course you can. You just become something other than a theistic Muslim, if you put your faith in certain of them.
”
Not necessarily.This black and white thinking is limited to a certain kind of mental process or perhaps social conditioning.

Yep. Comes in various brands - Islam is one of them. I regard the conditioned mental process involved as crippling, others regard it as suitably focusing - like the blinkers on a race horse.

Don't worry, your theistic credentials are in good order - that necessity of a God to provide for a "causal universe" is your bona fides, and I will attest to it.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yep. Comes in various brands - Islam is one of them. I regard the conditioned mental process involved as crippling, others regard it as suitably focusing - like the blinkers on a race horse.

Don't worry, your theistic credentials are in good order - that necessity of a God to provide for a "causal universe" is your bona fides, and I will attest to it.

Doesn't matter if you do or don't. I prefer my blinkers to yours, I was never one for words over action.

 

[iceaura]

I prefer my blinkers to yours, I was never one for words over action.

Very American attitude - your fellow theists in the US would recognize it immediately, and know you as one of them. That was practically the slogan of the people who committed the genocide against the North American Reds, the pioneers of America, for example.

It's a bit unpleasant sometimes, to be on the receiving end of all that focused belief translated into action - ask the Iraqis. The best thing to do is usually just stay out of the way, if you can - an Abrahamic theist with the bit in their teeth is all but impossible to turn.

 

[S.A.M.]

Very American attitude - your fellow theists in the US would recognize it immediately, and know you as one of them. That was practically the slogan of the people who committed the genocide against the North American Reds, the pioneers of America, for example.

It's a bit unpleasant sometimes, to be on the receiving end of all that focused belief translated into action - ask the Iraqis. The best thing to do is usually just stay out of the way, if you can - an Abrahamic theist with the bit in their teeth is all but impossible to turn.

Heh, yeah, I'm familiar with how demonizing works too. Hence my preference for a paradigm where accountability is tied to what people do, rather than what they say they do.

 

[iceaura]

Hence my preference for a paradigm where accountability is tied to what people do, rather than what they say they do.

Yours and everybody's. The sticky part comes in actually getting people to own up to what they do. It's not noticeably easier, with Abrahamists in general or Muslims in particular - the tunnel vision thing they tend to have going limits communication.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yours and everybody's. The sticky part comes in actually getting people to own up to what they do. It's not noticeably easier, with Abrahamists in general or Muslims in particular - the tunnel vision thing they tend to have going limits communication.

Yeah I've noticed the tunnel vision thingy. Its generally found behind the justifications for self interest. One of the first things that struck me about media in the US for example is how easy it is to restructure reality by omitting large parts of what defines it. Hence it was quite clear to me that I was never going to see, for example, the celebration of Christmas in Iran, an Egyptian play or a travelogue on Morocco that included bars where the lithe young Maghrabis hung around and joked. There would never be, for example, an interview with the government oppressed LGBT communities in the Arab world unless it was to promote an upcoming crusade. Nor was I likely to hear about the sense of humour of the Iraqis or the bloody mindedness of Egyptian women since invisible people make for acceptable victims. For the same reason, it would not surprise me if all the Presidential visits to Saudi Arabia missed a look at Arab society in general. The occasional outlier who found reality disconsonant with the rhetoric could be easily brushed aside [though the honesty of such duplicity can be refreshing].


So yes, I am familiar with your brand of anti-Abrahamism, if only in the limited context of the Arab world.

 

[iceaura]

So yes, I am familiar with your brand of anti-Abrahamism, if only in the limited context of the Arab world.

My brand of what!?

Was that excellent paragraph of description detailing the benighted nature of the US Abrahamist-dominated, theistically coopted, fundie catering media supposed to have some identity with anything I've posted here?

When you look at the US media, the US military, and the US corporate elite, dealing with the Muslim world, you are looking at Christian dominated, theist dominated, Abrahamic religion dominated, institutions and agencies deal with the Muslim world. That is not "my brand" of anything.

Yeah I've noticed the tunnel vision thingy. Its generally found behind the justifications for self interest.

Peculiar kind of self-interest, fundie religion. I'd use some different word.

 

[S.A.M.]

My brand of what!?

Was that excellent paragraph of description detailing the benighted nature of the US Abrahamist-dominated, theistically coopted, fundie catering media supposed to have some identity with anything I've posted here?

When you look at the US media, the US military, and the US corporate elite, dealing with the Muslim world, you are looking at Christian dominated, theist dominated, Abrahamic religion dominated, institutions and agencies deal with the Muslim world. That is not "my brand" of anything.
Peculiar kind of self-interest, fundie religion. I'd use some different word.

Indeed, I am looking at American society as represented by its elected members. You can apply this across the board in the "Global Peace Initiative"

The restructuring does blur when the borders get closer and its not possible to avoid some recognition of what is rather than what isn't. But the basic self interest remains intact, as does the framimg of the other. I'm beginning to think its a requirement of sterile civlisation to ignore its actions. Perhaps that is why the focus has shifted to the requirement for platitudes?

 

[iceaura]

Indeed, I am looking at American society as represented by its elected members.

Then where are getting "my brand" of "anti-Abrahamism" from? They are all Abrahamists, for starters. They're your fellow theists, and typical of the kind. Welcome them.

I'm beginning to think its a requirement of sterile civlisation to ignore its actions.

Pakistan's self-oblivious slide toward disaster, Saudi Arabia's darkening corrupted princedom, these count?

But the basic self interest remains intact, as does the framimg of the other.

This "self-interest" you keep invoking - whose interest, exactly, are you talking about? Chomsky was clear on the point, as was Hermann and the rest.

 

[S.A.M.]

Then where are getting "my brand" of "anti-Abrahamism" from? They are all Abrahamists, for starters. They're your fellow theists, and typical of the kind. Welcome them.

I doubt many of the 45 member states forming the biggest weapons coalition in history are guided by anything me or my fellow Abrahamists would recognise

Pakistan's self-oblivious slide toward disaster, Saudi Arabia's darkening corrupted princedom, these count?

In the context of both being established and allied with the above mentioned peacekeepers, entirely.

This "self-interest" you keep invoking - whose interest, exactly, are you talking about? Chomsky was clear on the point, as was Hermann and the rest.

Whatever motivates some people to maintain an expensive lifestyle perhaps? Not sure how the self described moral leaders of the free world justify it to themselves.

 

[iceaura]

I doubt many of the 45 member states forming the biggest weapons coalition in history are guided by anything me or my fellow Abrahamists would recognise

Then it's time for better awareness of self. Those of us outside the belief system have no problem recognizing the patterns.

In the context of both being established and allied with the above mentioned peacekeepers, entirely.

Excuses, excuses.

Whatever motivates some people to maintain an expensive lifestyle perhaps? Not sure how the self described moral leaders of the free world justify it to themselves.

So we are not talking about the "self-interest" of the US, US society, most US people, or anything of that kind.

 

[S.A.M.]

Then it's time for better awareness of self. Those of us outside the belief system have no problem recognizing the patterns.
Excuses, excuses.

Probably because you're on the inside looking in

So we are not talking about the "self-interest" of the US, US society, most US people, or anything of that kind.

Only if we pretend that being above the law and beyond accountability is somehow devoid of self interest.

 

[Michael]

Yep. Comes in various brands - Islam is one of them. I regard the conditioned mental process involved as crippling, others regard it as suitably focusing - like the blinkers on a race horse.

Don't worry, your theistic credentials are in good order - that necessity of a God to provide for a "causal universe" is your bona fides, and I will attest to it.

Zing!

 

[Michael]

Heh, yeah, I'm familiar with how demonizing works too. Hence my preference for a paradigm where accountability is tied to what people do, rather than what they say they do.

Don't hate the people, but discourage their intolerant ideology.

I never understood how some people can be so racist against Indians. They quote various writings from various people and publish various crap like: "No mixing the races" and all that. Just last night at the pub a guy I know was advised by his mother not to mix the races - for the sake of the kids (he has 3 so-called half cast kids, kind of cute if you ask me). Back 200 years ago many publications discouraged the mixing of the races between the so-called superior white race with the inferior "darker" ones.

We mostly worked past that and are still working past it. The same thing is happening with the Qur'an. The racists of course don't like this one bit. Not one bit at all. But, my mate, he loves his mother as much as he always has. And she loves her wonderful grandkids.

 

[iceaura]

Probably because you're on the inside looking in

Inside of what?

Only if we pretend that being above the law and beyond accountability is somehow devoid of self interest.

Are we also pretending that the sterile, US society, US peopled, general subjects of the earlier accusations, are above the law?

 

[S.A.M.]

Don't hate the people, but discourage their intolerant ideology.

I have no trouble with intolerant ideologies just assholes.

I get along well with many people with ideologies unlike mine or ones I strongly disagree with.

I don't get along with assholes even if they share my ideologies.

 

[one_raven]

Sam,

Do you believe that Allah exists as a matter of metaphysical reality or just a metaphor/pragmatic truth?
If neither, please explain.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sam,

Do you believe that Allah exists as a matter of metaphysical reality or just a metaphor/pragmatic truth?
If neither, please explain.

Thats what I am trying to frame in terms of mental construct: whats the difference between the two?

What makes a metaphysical reality more "real" than a metaphor?

In terms of concepts that we define to understand reality, whats the reality we are accessing?

PS lets not make this about me. There are plenty of other people to do that here/

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Well I have not experienced Buddha's existence either but I am willing to concede on faith that he may have existed.

But in this case your faith is rational.

• Buddha was an ordinary mortal man. Therefore his existence is not an extraordinary assertion, subject to dismissal in the absence of extraordinary evidence by the Rule of Laplace. The god of Abraham, in contrast, is an unobservable supernatural creature with the power to capriciously and irrationally perturb the flow of events in the natural universe. His existence violates not just a couple of canonical scientific theories, but the fundamental premise underlying the entire scientific method: that the natural universe is a closed system whose future behavior can be predicted by theories derived rationally from empirical observation of its past and present behavior. This is exactly what Laplace warned us about.
• There is ample ordinary evidence for the existence of Buddha, so to have faith in that existence is not unscientific. There is no extraordinary evidence for the existence of the god of Abraham, so we are free to treat that hypothesis with disrespect. To have faith in that existence is not only unscientific but, considering how deeply it violates the scientific method, it is antiscientific.

Faith in Allah is an irrational faith. Big difference.

I doubt many of the 45 member states forming the biggest weapons coalition in history are guided by anything me or my fellow Abrahamists would recognise.

I have spent my entire life in the largest of those 45 states, the overwhelming majority of whose citizens consistently and proudly identify themselves as Christians. There is a strong religious theme in our election campaigns, and we have never had a President who was not a practicing Christian who justified his actions based on his faith. Our Christians, collectively as a community, enthusiastically support NATO and are ready to make war against the Muslim world, as well as the Russians if they don't start behaving themselves. While there are a few admirable but tiny exceptions like the Quakers, this is the essence of Abrahamism in the new millennium: atavistic tribalism. You may speak of your "fellow Abrahamists," but most of them in fact do not extend their kinship to the entire monotheistic population. Abrahamism is an artifact of the Stone Age, when it was necessary to fight rival tribes over limited resources. It has no place in the modern world, in which there is a surplus of everything and our only problem is distribution.

Whatever motivates some people to maintain an expensive lifestyle . . . . ?

An intuitive understanding of 21st-century economics. There is no shortage of goods and services or the production capacity to deliver them, merely a political problem in delivering them to everyone who needs them. I know that giving up my chocolates, my air conditioner and my Mercedes would not even slightly solve the nutrition, comfort and transportation problems in the poor countries. 25 years ago I raised a massive amount of money for World Vision International to send food to the starving Ethiopians. That food was hijacked by despotic leaders and sold on the black market to buy champagne and weapons.

 

[S.A.M.]

What makes Buddha more real to you? All our assertions of rationality ultimately boil down to which assumptions we hold true.

Although, to be fair, Buddha is a less valid construct than his words for the purposes of what I am saying. Buddha being a putative person. I was more interested in how the acceptance of a belief system may be linked to a predisposition to think in that way, but, as I said, I'm still trying to parse it.

I'm more interested in the concept of "truth" here than the definition of rationality.