A Paradox of Omniscience and Free Will

[Adstar]

LightEagle

Adstar, I don't agree with you that God would predetermine a meteorite to strike earth because killing millions of people was some way part of His plan.

Please provide the quote where i stated it was part of Gods plan? If you read this thread you will see that Cris was the poster who put forward the hypothetical calamity. My answers where answers to His hypothetical situation. Part of that was that the meteor had already stuck earth and exterminated the entire human race. Of course i do not believe that a meteor is going to exterminate the entire human race. But of course that does not mean that i do not leave out the possibility of a mayor meteor strike in the near future that will cause millions of deaths.

You may site Noah's flood and Sodom and Gamorrah as examples from the Bible, but these were punishments and not steps towards an ultimate goal.

They did play a part in Gods ultimate Goal because the world would be different if they did not take place.

Since then Jesus has came as atonement for our sins and has sets us free. According to the Bible God has done all on His side, why would He need a meteorite to establish His kingdom, which is spiritual?

Read the Book of Revelation, This world is going to go through mayor calamities from man and from Gods wrath upon earth. Too many "christians" disregard the book of Revelation and the words of Jesus in Matthew 24 and 25.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Lighteagle,

Nope. Again if the result is known before the apparent choice then it isn't a choice but a pre-determined action.

See cris that’s where your mind block is. No amount of explanation is going to make you understand something that has not been given you to understand.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[LightEagle]

Nope. Again if the result is known before the apparent choice then it isn't a choice but a pre-determined action.

Why?

If I take a dice and throw it and know on what number it is going to fall, I have not pre-determined that it will fall on that number. Lets look at a board game as another example. Even if I know what the outcome of the boardgame will be and the choices which will be made, I have had no influence on the choices made and have not pre-determined the outcome.

Another possibility is that the final outcome (final judgement by God) is pre-determined as well as the beginning (the moment of Creation), but when the final outcome is to occur and the bit in between is not pre-determined and does not have an influence on the final outcome. I would therefore agree that in this scenario I do not have free will regarding the ultimate end (or beginning), but I do have free will regarding my own personal life and the choices made in the time I have at my disposal.

 

[LightEagle]

Please provide the quote where i stated it was part of Gods plan?

(Q),
"A meteor strikes the Earth and kills every living thing upon it.
Was this gods plan?"

Adstar,
"Yes."

They did play a part in Gods ultimate Goal because the world would be different if they did not take place.

How? Where in the Bible is there reference to the fact that those destructive events had any impact whatsoever on subsequent events?

Read the Book of Revelation, This world is going to go through mayor calamities from man and from Gods wrath upon earth. Too many "christians" disregard the book of Revelation and the words of Jesus in Matthew 24 and 25.

The world has been going through calamities since the beginning of time.

 

[Cris]

Adstar,

Cris: LOL. So what you are claiming is that before you were born you knew every action you would ever take in your life, is that correct? ”

Adstar: No. Where did i say that?

Cris: but something did otherwise your actions would not have been known beforehand. ”

Adstar: Yes that something is Me.

 

[Cris]

Lighteagle,

If I take a dice and throw it and know on what number it is going to fall, I have not pre-determined that it will fall on that number.

I didn't say that you are the cause of the pre-determination but simply that pre-determination must have occurred for knowledge to be present before the event. This is inescapable logic.

How pre-determination can occur is another issue along with explaining how omniscience might be possible.

 

[Cris]

Lighteagle,

but when the final outcome is to occur and the bit in between is not pre-determined and does not have an influence on the final outcome.

Which would mean there are things that the god does not know which means he would not be omniscienet (all-knowing).

Any way you cut this - if knowledge is present before an event then the event will have been predtermined. Once you remove the claim for omniscience then free will becomes possible.

As I have said many times already the existence of omniscience is mutally exclusive with the existence of free-will. You cannot have both at the same time.

 

[Cris]

Adstar,

See cris that’s where your mind block is. No amount of explanation is going to make you understand something that has not been given you to understand.

BS. It is simple logic and a basic paradox that you are unable to resolve or explain.

 

[Adstar]

(Q),
"A meteor strikes the Earth and kills every living thing upon it.
Was this gods plan?"

Adstar,
"Yes."



How? Where in the Bible is there reference to the fact that those destructive events had any impact whatsoever on subsequent events?



The world has been going through calamities since the beginning of time.

Light eagle you are not reading the posts in full. Therefore there is little point discussing things with you.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Adstar,

Cris: LOL. So what you are claiming is that before you were born you knew every action you would ever take in your life, is that correct? ”

Adstar: No. Where did i say that?

Cris: but something did otherwise your actions would not have been known beforehand. ”

Adstar: Yes that something is Me.

When i said it was Me it was in realtion to causing my actions. Not that i determined my actions beforehand.

Once again your stuck in your mind set.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Adstar,

BS. It is simple logic and a basic paradox that you are unable to resolve or explain.

It’s your simple logic that leads you to see a paradox that makes you unable to understand.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Cris]

Adstar,

When i said it was Me it was in realtion to causing my actions. Not that i determined my actions beforehand.

Once again your stuck in your mind set.

Nah just teasing you. I thought the idea you might be causing your own pre-determination a particularly comedic opportunity.

 

[Cris]

Adstar,

It’s your simple logic that leads you to see a paradox that makes you unable to understand.

I don't think that is what you meant to say, it doesn’t make sense. Simple here means it is not difficult to see.

Let’s try it without the religious aspects so you can’t accuse me of not understanding because God hasn’t taught me yet. Hmm, that might backfire since without his help you might claim not being able to understand simple logic, oh well, let’s see.

I’ll state it again for you. If an outcome is known before an event occurs then the outcome must have been pre-determined. This implies nothing about how or what caused the pre-determination just that it is a necessary result given the chronology. To avoid any confusion let’s assume the knowledge was available say some 10 billion years before the event.

So what is wrong with that?

 

[LightEagle]

You said the following in a previous post which I did read:

Please provide the quote where i stated it was part of Gods plan? If you read this thread you will see that Cris was the poster who put forward the hypothetical calamity. My answers where answers to His hypothetical situation. Part of that was that the meteor had already stuck earth and exterminated the entire human race. Of course i do not believe that a meteor is going to exterminate the entire human race. But of course that does not mean that i do not leave out the possibility of a mayor meteor strike in the near future that will cause millions of deaths.

You must then have misunderstood the hypothetical example. It was meant as a model for events in general which cause distress and pain. By saying God used the meteorite impact in His plan, you are saying that He uses calamaties (such as a meterite impact, rape, murder, volcanic eruption, etc.) as part of His plan. That all that happens fits into His Divine plan. If you meant otherwise, please correct me and post what your point of view is on the above statements.

 

[Adstar]

I’ll state it again for you. If an outcome is known before an event occurs then the outcome must have been pre-determined. This implies nothing about how or what caused the pre-determination just that it is a necessary result given the chronology. To avoid any confusion let’s assume the knowledge was available say some 10 billion years before the event.

So what is wrong with that?

its wrong.

There is no point in me restating my position and then you restating yours cris. We could keep on doing that for months. How many times have you made this statement.

"If an outcome is known before an event occurs then the outcome must have been pre-determined."

You can keep on repeating that statement as many times as you wish but it is wrong in relation to God. You are locked in this logic. I have stated my position and those who are given understanding will accept it. I am content with that.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

LightEagle

Read this again:

Of course i do not believe that a meteor is going to exterminate the entire human race. But of course that does not mean that i do not leave out the possibility of a mayor meteor strike in the near future that will cause millions of deaths.

Read this:
1 Kings 9:9
Then they will answer, ‘Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore the LORD has brought all this calamity on them.’”

Read this:
Jeremiah 6:19
Hear, O earth! Behold, I will certainly bring calamity on this people— The fruit of their thoughts, Because they have not heeded My words Nor My law, but rejected it.

Read this:
Jeremiah 26:3
Perhaps everyone will listen and turn from his evil way, that I may relent concerning the calamity which I purpose to bring on them because of the evil of their doings.’

Read this:
Ezekiel 6:10
And they shall know that I am the LORD; I have not said in vain that I would bring this calamity upon them.”

ok?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: rape and murder are not Calamities. And the calamities that come from God are fortold by Gods prophets.

 

[Cris]

Adstar,

its wrong. ...

Why? This is a simple exercise in logic, not religion.

 

[LightEagle]

Why? This is a simple exercise in logic, not religion.

Thanks

Adstar, using God to explain all calamities (by the way, rape is a calamity according to the difinition given by the Oxford dictionary) is not only imprudent, but also dangerous. How do you explain to a rape victim that what has happened to her is some way part of God's plan? How do you explain to the victims of New Orleans or Hiroshima that what happend is part of God's plan? Sin brought chaos and therefore calamities. All your examples are from the old testament. Since then Jesus has come. The "signs of the times" Jesus mentions are not God-wrought calamities, but just signs, due to a sinfull and therefore fallen world.

Cris, your logic is irrefutable, but only from a specific point of view. I agree that if the outcome of an event is foreknown, it is inevitable that it should happen. However, free will can exist if the Supreme Being who has the foreknowledge ONLY had the foreknowledge and did not interfere with the choices made. The event is inevitable, but not if it would not have been chosen.

 

[(Q)]

I agree that if the outcome of an event is foreknown, it is inevitable that it should happen. However, free will can exist if the Supreme Being who has the foreknowledge ONLY had the foreknowledge and did not interfere with the choices made. The event is inevitable, but not if it would not have been chosen.

If an event has foreknowledge, no choices can be made. One simply is following that which is already known to happen. In other words, no free will. This is a very simply concept to understand.

 

[Jenyar]

If an event has foreknowledge, no choices can be made. One simply is following that which is already known to happen. In other words, no free will. This is a very simply concept to understand.

Only if there is only one path to such an event, and therefore only one path to be known. The Bible knows no such determinism (Deut. 11:26-28; Deut. 30:19). God sets different paths before us, and knows all of them, but we can walk only one. God knows where every decision will land us, every consequence, but He does not decide for us which path we take. That doesn't mean we can do something God has not foreseen, or that we cannot choose because God has foreseen all options.