A Paradox of Omniscience and Free Will

predetermination and foreknowledge are different.

predetermination supposes that God has predetermined everything. down to my decision if i am going to have a cup of tea tonight or i am going to have a cup of coffee, classic calvinism says that we are unknowing zombies playing our automated parts in an automated existence.

Foreknowledge does not exclude intervention. God always planned to intervene with the Act of the Messiah. But the intervention does not go down to each individuals acceptance or rejection of the Messiah.

Actually in classic calvinism God does not need to intervene in anything. Because in calvanisim every event in history is pre-set therefore all God had to do is set the program running and sit back.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Cris said:
Adstar,

If there is such a set outcome then you are agreeing that everything is indeed pre-determined, correct?
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No.

The set outcome is desired by God (the ultimate objective of God) therefore He created the Universe and injects Himself at critical junctions in History to lead creation to the desired outcome. But God does not control each individual response to His interventions. But God who saw all of History from the foundations of the earth (beginning of creation) knows exactly how each and every person will react.

Just because someone knows my reaction does not mean they have forced me to react in the way i do. The reaction is still my decision even when Someone already knows what my reaction will be.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Seeing as time is a property of the universe, I would imagine a creator would be in timeless place and could at the moment of creation see from the beginning to infinity. What seems like billions of years to us is nothing to the hypothetical creator.

And we still think we have free will even though everything has already been said and done?
 
A meteor strikes the Earth and kills every living thing upon it.

Was this gods plan? Did he have foreknowledge of the event? Did he cause the event? Could he have intervened to stop the event? Was this his grand plan afterall, to watch his creation be destroyed by something else that was his creation?

Why or why not?
 
(Q) said:
A meteor strikes the Earth and kills every living thing upon it.

Was this gods plan? Did he have foreknowledge of the event? Did he cause the event? Could he have intervened to stop the event? Was this his grand plan afterall, to watch his creation be destroyed by something else that was his creation?

Why or why not?
Click to expand...

The physical is just a home for the spiritual. God's everlasting kingdom is within us where nothing may destroy it. Once you have understanding of this, there is no need to worry about what happens to this mortal temporary physical home. We await a new home, one untarnished by the consequences of fallen man's unspiritual fleshy pursuits. God can do what he likes with His creation. Who would you be to challenge Him anyway?

peace

c20
 
Uh, thanks for the sermon, c20. Could you answer the questions, instead?
 
adstar,

Just because someone knows my reaction does not mean they have forced me to react in the way i do.
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Agreed, but something did otherwise your actions would not have been known beforehand.
 
Lighteagle,

Why does something HAVE to be predetermined?
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If omniscience exists then predetermination is a necessary result. It is inescapable logic. If an outcome is known before the choice is made then the choice will have been predetermined.
 
alright 'omniscience' means 'knowledge of all things'....now my argument is that this 'God' dude on high is an upstart created by a upstart elie of men known as the patriarchy who seek to one up on Nature/Goddess, women, and all peoples who contradict their bullshit

they poisit that teir belief is the 'Word' of 'God' hence 'LOGOS' 'KNOELDGE' becomes the be all and end all

understand that a deeper inight is wit the Goddess stream--much more primeval than the idea of a sky-god. with Goddess you getIMMANENCE. this means that Earth and universe--NOT divided as patriarchal phiolophy, and mystical schools did/do--are her BODY.....!

see what this means.

This is meaning that very creation itsELF IS creative. there is no 'architect desinger-god BEHIND 'creation'--as a potter makes clay. no. Goddess and creation are one, which mans we too. ...creation is creationism. is sentient. yes?

so that means for free will, that all energy/matter has volitin. that the choice is spontaneous. when you choose to do someting it is spontanous. no longer do you have a knowledge-eye hovering above your head. the agent and he act are one
 
Lighteagle,

What if the choice is not known, but the all the possibilities? Then the SPECIFIC outcome is not known, but all the possibilities the chooser has at his/her disposal is.
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OK. If a god is aware of an infinite number of possibilities but doesn’t know which specific path will be chosen from that set then that is the same thing as not knowing what will happen. In which case he is not omniscient and free will could exist.

For example I know all the possible outcomes if I throw a pair of dice, but I will not know beforehand which specific number will arrive at my next throw.
 
Adstar,

The reaction is still my decision even when Someone already knows what my reaction will be.
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Not if it has been predetermined. That you think it is your decions is just an illusion. If it is known beforehand then you will be powerless to do anything different - you will be simply a pre-programmed automaton.
 
c20H25N3o said:
The physical is just a home for the spiritual. God's everlasting kingdom is within us where nothing may destroy it. Once you have understanding of this, there is no need to worry about what happens to this mortal temporary physical home. We await a new home, one untarnished by the consequences of fallen man's unspiritual fleshy pursuits. God can do what he likes with His creation. Who would you be to challenge Him anyway?

peace

c20
Click to expand...

Whatever way you slice it, that is impossible. As sure as I am of a banana being the colour yellow, I am sure there is no 'afterlife'. From what I understand, everything that made up my body will always exist after death, but that is no afterlife. Unless my nueron network is replicated in some other dimension, I will have no knowledge of it and no individuality. Even then I would have no knowledge of existing elsewhere. There could even be another universe out there with my body which is exact to the smallest particle, and I would have no knowledge of it.

What you just said is not far off a 5 year old telling you about santa/the toothfairy. I hate to keep going back to that analogy, but it is true. From childhood we do not understand why loved ones die and where they have gone, and that is the root of everything you just said - Insecurities, delusion, fear and being unable to accept the harsh reality.
 
Cris said:
Just because someone knows my reaction does not mean they have forced me to react in the way i do.
Click to expand...

adstar,

Agreed, but something did otherwise your actions would not have been known beforehand.
Click to expand...


Yes that something is Me.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
(Q) said:
A meteor strikes the Earth and kills every living thing upon it.

Was this gods plan?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Did he have foreknowledge of the event?
Click to expand...

Yes

Did he cause the event?
Click to expand...

Yes

Could he have intervened to stop the event?
Click to expand...

Yes

Was this his grand plan afterall, to watch his creation be destroyed by something else that was his creation?
Click to expand...

Yes

Why or why not?
Click to expand...

Because it would be a part of His plan.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar

You've shown 2 things.

First, free will does not exist and second, your god is cruel.
 
Adstar,

Yes that something is Me.
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LOL. So what you are claiming is that before you were born you knew every action you would ever take in your life, is that correct?
 
Cris said:
OK. If a god is aware of an infinite number of possibilities but doesn’t know which specific path will be chosen from that set then that is the same thing as not knowing what will happen. In which case he is not omniscient and free will could exist.

For example I know all the possible outcomes if I throw a pair of dice, but I will not know beforehand which specific number will arrive at my next throw.
Click to expand...

Ok, I can agree with that. On the other hand. Say God does know each possibility as well as the choice that the chooser will make, but had no influence on that choice, then free will exists as well.

Adstar, I don't agree with you that God would predetermine a meteorite to strike earth because killing millions of people was some way part of His plan. You may site Noah's flood and Sodom and Gamorrah as examples from the Bible, but these were punishments and not steps towards an ultimate goal. Since then Jesus has came as atonement for our sins and has sets us free. According to the Bible God has done all on His side, why would He need a meteorite to establish His kingdom, which is spiritual? I agree with C20 and his division between spiritual and physical. Take another example. A woman is raped. Do you really think that this is part of God's plan for her life or that of humanity as a whole?
 
Lighteagle,

Say God does know each possibility as well as the choice that the chooser will make, but had no influence on that choice, then free will exists as well.
Click to expand...
Nope. Again if the result is known before the apparent choice then it isn't a choice but a pre-determined action.
 
Cris said:
Adstar,

LOL. So what you are claiming is that before you were born you knew every action you would ever take in your life, is that correct?
Click to expand...

No. Where did i say that?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
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