A new approach to mental illness

It is true that a grey area exists but such an existance of a grey are should not shift the focus from the areas that are more obvious.

I suppose I see the state of sanity and insanity as a sliding infinite scale with no real clear distinctions along the way.
The culture and society the person lives in is an obvious determiner as to how sane a person is.

The thing is if a guy goes "wacko" over his neighbours garden furniture and the neighbour is understanding then there aint a problem. However if the neighbour isn't so understanding the guys behaviour may have to change and if he can't the law will be used to restrain him or treat him.

Either way his society determines his future treatment. If he is able to refrain from his wacko behaviour with out treatment then he is considered sane and only having suffered a temporary slip of mind so to speak. (which of cause we all do at times) It is only when the behaviour is entrenched and unacceptable does his assesment become necessary.
 
Originally posted by Quantum Quack
It is true that a grey area exists but such an existance of a grey are should not shift the focus from the areas that are more obvious.

etc
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What's that got to do with this statement?

"I think it's rather obvious what the difference between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick."

You have done a lot of rambling around but really didn't address this issue. I think it is an important one; because here in the West there is an intolerance of ANY world view not based on rationalism. In this way, Western psychology is very limited; and it is often used as a weapon of elitism, a way of enforcing class distinction.
 
Watcher, I agree with you as I said the definition of sanity is a very wide one. I don't agree with the statement at all:
"I think it's rather obvious what the difference between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick."
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And....

I thought that I had addressed this, maybe less directly as you would wish, but address it I feel I have.

The DSM that the psychiatry services here ( Australia ) use seems to adequately cover this issue. Our Mental health act also allows for the rule that dissallows detention or protection orders based on beliefs alone. Only is a person protected ( as a rule ) because of his potential and actions that infringe on the rights of others.
( and percieved threat of extreme self harm )

The question of "potential" is where it gets really vague. Being something that a Doctor has to make a value judgement on. The appeals processes allow for mistaken diagnosis by being judged by the doctors' peers.

The Doctors I must say do not enjoy this vexatious position that they are in hence the development of the DSM. ( rules of restraint and treatment)

The destinction between subjective insanity and objective insanity could be mentioned.

In that objective insanity is when it impacts directly on the rights of others, and subjective insanity being the patients effect on himself. ( such as religious beliefs and other subjective distortions)
 
" ..impacts directly on the rights of others. "
If you adhere to DSM fabrications and your methodology included nurturing their delusions , then it could be argued that you are the one who should be restrained .

I know of a young women who was taught that she had an evil spirit in her body as part of some religious nonsense that she was exposed to . This religious over-refinement caused her intense distress and she was admitted to a hospital . While there , the head psychiatrist proceeded to reinforce this devil nonsense in her mind by telling her , her family and others that - yes this girl is possesed . The young womens condition deteriorated rapidly .

Now here you are advocating a similar procedure . Pure, non -consentual and provocational . These people are not play subjects for your entertainment . If you tried to make one of my family , your guinea pig .....I would be knocking on your door !
 
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Abnak, where do I suggest nurturing their delusions?

I only advocate the training of ability.

In the example you quote I would be asking"What ability is the girl employing unknowingly"?

What sensory distortions are involved?
 
Your exact quote was " To nurture the ability is to free the patient of delusion."

What sensory distortions are involved?
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There were no sensory distortions in this case , just normal fear and misplaced trust in an authority figure who fed her further lies and powerful medications . She reached out for help and was further manipulated .

Many in your profession are not men of science , they are rapists and egomaniacs who hide behind a concocted list of unapproved behaviours . Their claim is medical , when in reality they are simply an extention of Government control .
 
With all due respect ( I do mean this)

Abnak, for some people including my self your response is bordering on conspiracy theory.

I ask you the question?

What abilities are you using to arrive at your opinion or position?

What perspectives are involved?

What memories have you that create a sense of confrontation?

or

What abilities are missing?

etc etc etc
 
" What abilities are you using to arrive at your opinion or position?"

In the incident I related , it entailed talking to several people involved , then trying to determine what had occured . When I first heard this , I was extremely sceptical as to its accuracy . But repeated references and confirmations by others , leads me to believe that this indeed had taken place . The woman , an acquaintance of approximately ten years, told me that soon after her daughter was admitted , the head doctor approached her asking if she was a Christian , then proceeded to detail his ridiculous contrivance described . This woman is a Pentecostal and readily accepted the doctors story , much to the dismay of several of the staff . It is my belief that evil spirits and a devilish horned guy in a red suit are imaginary constructs , there is no evidence what so ever of their existence . I arrived at a conclusion ( a position or opinion reached after consideration ) that the doctor was deliberately misleading these people .

" The culture and society the person lives in is an obvious determiner as to how sane a person is."

Being "mentally healthy" is determined by whether or not an individual conforms to a groups usances ? Some societies practice clitoral and penis mutilation ...would non-conformists to this be considered by you to be suffering from a mental disorder ?

That line of thinking resembles a 15th century mentality ,where an inquisitional style elite cloak themselves in medical folderol - motivated by profit and desires of further developing a fallacious ascendancy . It is not one based entirely on sound medical reasoning, but one where invention , ingenuity and mendacity are utilized in hopes of decieving .

Benjamin Rush ( APA mascot ) labled political adversaries as suffering from a mental disorder . Psychiatry, does deal with real medical issues , but was and often is still used as a vehicle to control others that resist dictatorial subjugation into an imaginary homogeneous framework .
 
Abnak, I agree with you again. You have again pointed out that the question of sanity is fluid and subject to perspective.

The doctor you are talking about regards the girl mentioned is in fact less sane than the girl I would think. In a position of high authority behaving so badly.

But as with most things we need to keep things in perspective I guess, in this case it is worth noting the incident is only oneof many. But also one of millions of admissions and treatments occuring every day.

An example of extreme malpractice for sure, but I would put forward the view that it is only and extreme minority view point that is discussed.

So from this perspective your approach is in my opinion and with all due respect some what biased to this minority.

Thisin no way invalidates your point of view I might add.
 
Abnak,

Actually that was me that said "difference between someone who is religious and obviously sick etc", so don't attack Quantam Quack please.

I guess in a way we can't dismiss consumers thoughts and feelings whilst "unwell" because that is taking their rights and beliefs away from a very personal experience that we cannot understand from their perspective.

However, most of the mentally ill people I know are devout Christians, and I only know of 2 atheists. I think this is because it gives them comfort from the so called 'devil' and they feel safe if they've been 'born again'.
A friend of mine believes God and Satan talk to him, and he is a very devout Christian, which makes me wonder if it is his 'illness' or if it is indeed God or whoever.

Indeed that psychiatrist of your friend's needs rapping over the knuckles for saying what he did, as does the various pastors etc who rope in people to convert.

I am currently studying to become a consumer advocate and I have had many discussions with my tutor about and she says to me
"What right do you have to tell a person it's not real? Its real to them, and humans have capabilities to deal with things in their own way"
So I suppose one has to take each case and work with that.
but for all that I am a frim believer in giving people reality checks, because I am not about to agree that a person is possessed and have them commit hari kari on me. I guess it depends on a lot of issues.
 
Kirsty, welcome back.

I just wanted to focus a little on the issue of what is real.
As you have said it is not for us to say that a patients experiences are not real but I would add that it is also important that whilst validating the partients experiences we need to also validate ours to him/her.

Our reality and theirs is in a state or conflict . Ours is considered more real than theirs and this is the error. It is not really a question of whose reality is more real but that they are different.

Our reality is more shared with others than theirs. This does not invalidate their reality but states the difference.

The following is a post in another thread about the illusion called reality ( mental monoism)


""While interviewing a psychiatric patient in an institution cafeteria I was looking at another patient. As I watched I saw his fork leave it's plate and fly across the room at high velocity free of any visible effort by the patient concerned.
The patient looked up at the nursing staff and said " did you see that, did you see that,? It's happened again!!!"
The nursing staff assumed he had picked up the fork and thrown it across the room and chastised him for telling them that it did it on it's own. They thought he was joking, insane or both.
So arguments about solidness ( of reality) to me are in some ways amusing because as I witnessed it can at times be quite fluid.
The patient appears to have a certain ability that he can't control and is absolutely terrified of and rather mystified of as well."""

As you can see his reality is very precarious just by this event(s) alone. His fear and sense of delusion or self doubt is strong creating enormous problems for him. But because he is normally unable to share his experience we consider him to be unsane (UNSANE) However I did witnesse it and was the first peron he knew of that had shared this with him. No one else saw it so am I also insane...? sharing his insanity or are we just sharing in a rather rare event.
 
" ...we need to keep things in perspective I guess, in this case it is worth noting the incident is only one of many. But also one of millions of admissions and treatments occuring every day."

You are correct that this involved only one small girl and that millions of others did not experience similar horrors . What is applied to millions , is an industry generated concoction listing unacceptable behavours .
Many are normal for all living , breathing , fallible human beings at some time in their lives . But if you have , or some one says you have more than they think is appropriate - you will be encouraged to take medications that the same industry produces for a profit . And quess what , all of this collection of dubitable alphabet soup disorders are unverifable . Pure chicanery .

If such machinations were used in a legal system , it would be called a kangaroo court .
 
I accept your point of view. However I do not share your cynicism.

Possibly we are talking about different levels of illness.

The persons that I am referring to, usually only come to the attention of the doctors after severe disturbances. And hospitalisation is unavoidable as there being no other alternative.

I accept that it is possible that the industry of mental health is self justifying but from my own experience with it I find that it's treatment of patients is quite legal.
 
Please describe how you would nurture patients delusional abilities . Would this be done covertly ?
 
Nurturing their delusional abilities is the whole basis for your thread . How would you do this ? Would it be done secretly ?
 
I am sorry Abnak but I fail to see where I state that I would nurture their "delusional abilities" and have never suggested that it would be done in secret.

For a patient that can not accept what is presented to him I would ask what abilities are being employed that create the lack of accepting what is said as being said in good faith. I woud ask what abilities he would be utilising that creates a state of suspicion.

Our ability to be suspicious is a very strong ability and I would attempt to train that ability to be suspicious so that it is more grounded in reality and within the control of the patient.
 
"So the patient has developed an ability... "(delusional)
"To nurture the ability is to free the patient of delusion." - Quack

Healthy scepticism is not to be confused with baseless suspicion . Especially when experience has reinforced the postion that care should be taken when trusting others .
 
If I have given the impression or said anywhere that I wish t nurture the patients delusions then I am sorry for that is not what I wanted to state.
I aim to nurture the abilities not the delusions.
 
Nurture - breed - nourish

So you desire to breed their delusional abilities

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As soon as I have the full name of the doctor that manipulated that young woman and the hospital where he is employed , I will post it .
 
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