A new approach to mental illness

Abnak,


It's obvious you have little or no experience in working or dealing with people who have mental health issues.

I find your tone quite rude, and you seem to have something against people working in the field.

How would you deal with someone who was becoming ill, symptomatic, and distressed?
 
Rude? Because I ask questions or make statements that you feel uncomfortable with or are unable to answer scientifically ?

" I think it's rather obvious what the difference (is) between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick."

Please then , state the obvious . I gave examples from major religions that we could probably agree are completely stupid . Yet , are acceptable in their society . QQ's introduces his belief that the criteria and subsequent definitions contained within the DSM are valid , but variable according to where they are applied and by whom does the applying . This seems incorrect .

" ...you seem to have something against people working in the field."

No , I believe most are careing professionals . It's the lying , drug pushing , pseudo-scientific , pharmaceutical industry lackeys that evoke contempt .

" How would you deal with someone who was becoming ill, symptomatic, and distressed?"

Could you be more specific ? " Becoming ill " with what ?

It was only recently that autism was considered a condition caused by an "un-nurturing mother" and schizophrenia was a "narcissistic disorder" by major mental health professionals . Nonsense should be challanged .
 
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Abnak, people who have a mental health condition usually function quite well on medication. When they don't take their meds, they can become 'unwell' and end up in hospital because they are distressed, delusional etc.

I wish that consumers didn't have to take medication, but it is a sacrifice between being 'well' and 'unwell'. And yes, these pharmacutical companies are making big bucks from it, but realistically, what would YOU do about it, and what would you tell a mental health consumer when they are about to go into a mental health hospital for a few days.?

Yes, I liked your examples of ridiculous and somewhat violent religious rituals, but at the end of the day, one has to look at each individual case and give the appropriate treatment from there.

My job as a support worker does not include diagnosing, or treating - only a psychiatrist/ doctor does that, so I don't get too hung up on peoples diagnosies. But I do know when my guys are becoming ditressed or the voices are too much etc. So from that level, we would refer them to their doctor.

The medical community does the best they can for their clients - because their aim is to a functional life for consumers of mental health services.

Yes, I agree the DSM is flawed - wasn't homosexuality in there years ago? But as I said in a previous post - it is only a guide for head shrinks to make a diagnosis. And, I will add, misdiagnose all the time.
 
I am agreeing with you abnak. I never said that a heightened awareness of thought is schizophrenia and I may add that if I believe my own article I would dispute the existance of schizophrenia in the first place.

However we still have hospitals and other facilities full of very sick people. I don't care what the illnesses are called only that we seem to have very little to offer as a way of help.

I am suggesting a way that we can help.

And that once we treat the patient seriously and not keep thinking of the delusions we may get some where.

I am not suggesting that we ignore the delusions etc. or the fact that they are in deep shit. I am suggesting that their imaginations are struggling to cope with their extraordinary sensitivities and it is this sensitivity (sensory) that can be trained and adapted too.
 
QQ,
I now understand what you're getting at.

The Phobic Trust in NZ advocate the use of 'training' the mind and using 'mindfulness' in coping with phobia's etc.
When I was going through severe OCD, the head of the Phobic Trust told me to learn meditation, and how to work on my intuition etc.
I was also told that this could be dangerous for psychotic disorders, which is probably a reason why mental health services don't advocate alternative methods.
 
I think possible another reason apart from the inherent danger is that it would take effort and time thus money.

But when a guy or girl is sitting in a psych ward talking to no one and appears in great distress I think if some one tried to explain or find out what sensory ability was involved and attempted to work with the patient a better outcome could be possible.

Ability could be considered in abstract terms with no limitation for instance our ability to use common sense or our ability to believe what we hear or our ability to overly speculate etc etc.

Slowly over time an abstraction called an ability profile could be developed in a way that would sanely try to deal with the insanity of their condition.

You see every thing a person does and I mean everything could be considered as an ability, from going to the toilet to holding a discussion with a subpersona called God.

WE only have to look for a sane rational for their distress even if it means applying a little imagination ourselves.

Scenario

A guy is talking to a voice.

What sensory ability is he employing?

The ability to hear a voice ( who's voice is not important)

His ability to feel fear and sense fear

His ability to know that he is thought of as being delusionsal

His ability to think under great stress etc.

If one looks for the abilities involved there is a chance that he/she can be offered therapy where as at the moment we just let them suffer until the medications set in.

Theire ability to feel genuine sympathy is also confused etc.

Their ability to reject what we would normally take for granted.

Actually I have found rejection to be one of the most powerful abilities that we have.

As the responses to my thread starter have shown rejection is a strong ability in every one and more so in a person suffering. Rejecting the help that is offered.


We all have a tendancy to reject stuff with out full consideration and a psychotic person can reject the notion that he is paranoid or delusional because he knows he is realy experiencing what he is experiencing and for persons to call it a delusion or hallucinaation only invalidates his experiences causing not only confusion to the patient but a lot of anger as well.

I think it would be better to firstly validate his experiences in the right context and then work with the patient as to why his experiences are so distressing to him. IN the context of ABILITY we have an avenue to being able to help.

This concept as you say is not new but an extension of something currently being used. Maybe the medical profession should look a little deeper instead of resigning themselves to an INABILITY to offer real therapy.

INABILITY is only an inverse ABILITY

The ability to find a "centre" in a storm of emotional thinking is an ability that would be an excellent starter.
 
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Abnak,

I understand why you are trying to push the boundary outwards a little and yes you are trying to get people to think out side the box a little more. I repect that. ( I am also attempting to do this with my article)

However due to the limitations of this forum or should I say the fact that it is short worded answers it makes it very difficult to see the depth that people are discussing at.

Kristy for instance is talking from a perpective of working with very distressed and sad people all the time. She has great compassion and I think this is not to be disputed or for that matter treated with disdain or disrepect.

I have a background that is also full of experiences with very traumatised persons and talk at a different depth to Kristy and your self.

What has happened so far in this thread is an example of insanity that we have inflicted on our selves. WE have lost a little perpective.

Your desire to confront issues of prejudice or close-mindedness is really very good but you obviously have to accept that people will respond sometimes in defense. I refer to this as denial or rejection. And I may add is a major issue for the mentally "ILL" as well.

To be able to discuss in this medium (Forum) properly we have to try and find what depth the person is discussing at.

I may be a professor of forensic science with 40 years trying to find solutions for youth suicide for instance, or I may be a young kid who is struggling to understand the concept of "Clinically ill"

I may be a person who only spends 5 minutes a week devoted to irritating people by playing silly mind games. You know what I mean.

The perspective of the other person is very important and our ability to see this is a great sign of emotional and intellectual maturity. (and sanity I might add)

The internet forums provide a significant challenge to any one wanting to find sanity in discussions.

The loss of perpective being way to easy.
 
Kristy, thanks . Your posts are appreciated .
Your job involves many skills that I do not have and dealing with peoples problems that I have never encountered . I am however , aware of fraud and unethical conduct by members of the medical community .
As to your question : " what would you tell a mental health consumer when they are about to go into a mental health hospital for a few days.?"

Knowledge of medications and a honest support structure would be two big ones . Friends and family can be crucial during this time . Bring a PDR . Ask questions .

" And, I will add, ( psychiatrists ) misdiagnose all the time."

Since there are presently no bodily tests that determine or distinguish the nature of a mental "illness" , all a psychiatrist has is his opinion . What recourse does someone have when they are inaccurately and permamently labled / libelled ?

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QQ, I have disagreements with much of your posts . You jump to the conclusion that people talking to themselves are hearing voices and employing some unknown " sensory ability " . This may not be the case at all . Alot of people talk to themselves - often , stressed or not .

If in fact they actually have heard voices that no one else present has heard , a good place to start would be eliminateing electronic devices as a possible . You and others have described that many of these individuals have the opinion that they are being harrassed by law enforcement . Well , if you want I could pull up companies that supply the military and law enforcement communities with just such instruments , like directional transducers etc.... Denying the existence of this technology would mean either ignorance or dissimulation .

Could it be that some are indeed telling the truth , only to be entraped in a politicized medical establishment ?
 
Here in Australia we have methodology for an appeals process.

The possibility of some one being committed to an institution unfairly for any duration is extremely small. However the patient may think this to to be the case and has access to an appeals process. Unfortunately their condition is so precarious that they are unable to take full advantage in most cases of an appeals process.

An advocate can be sought and gained and this is fairly common here. However an advocate can not make a plea for sanity when the patient is obviously in distress.

Patients are very keen to pursue justice when they feel that their rights are threatened. It is the experience of the medical staff that they are acting as part of their state of mind and normally they plead with the patient to allow time to pass and a better perspective achieved. (When the patient can fill in the paper work and wait for a response they are proving that they are nearly ready for release)

?
If the patient is unable to excersise restraint the staff will do this for them.

I might add the situataion in these hospitals is far from perfect. The whole area of psychiatric care is full of major problems because we have no real way of dealing with insanity. The staff are in constant fear of their safety and organise themselves accordingly.

The pressure on nursing and doctors is incredible and they survive doing what they try to do as best as they can.

A very good female friend for instance has a habit when ill, of walking around with a big knife ( and I mean a BIG knife)( conspiracy theory). Her mom is constantly fearful. The nurses who treat her frequently are also.

The first reaction is to isolate her from others her plea'e for justice are violent. After a while she tends to settle down and apologises to everyone. Two months later she is repeating the cycle.

Abnak, if they are hearing voices that no one else can hear and if it's not sensory what else do you think it may be?
 
Edit : posted a response to your question , but realized later that it was a misunderstanding on my part . If some one was actually " hearing voices " and external sources ruled out 100% , then I would say , they are occuring internally . I do think some people suffer from mental "illness" , I am not saying that it doesn't exist , only that the industry can be motivated by entirely by profit to the extent that the very people it claims to help actually is detrimental to their health .
 
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ahhh it is truely amazing how two people who actually agree can think that they aren't:)

Can I ask you Abnak to do me a favour and find in my article where I assume the sensory ability is unknown.

I am in fact suggesting that they are employing known sensory abilities that are deeper in strength from the normal. In fact it's the whole object of the article.

It just goes to show you how easy it is to confuse people hey:D
 
" find in my article where I assume the sensory ability is unknown."



QQ, not in the original article , but as a response to Xenu . " What I am talking about is their ability. In this case their ability to hear voices ... " This would be your postulated unknown ability ( my words ) . I don't have it . You , I assume do not have it . In fact I don't think this ability exists in the context of there actually being something real . I did state other ways that people can have auditory sensations , when others do not , through electronics and that some people may have been subjected to this kind of harrassment .

When some one takes a powerfull hallucinogen , stimulating serotonin processes , the user experiences sensations that can include acousmas . Maybe this is similar to persons truely suffering from schizophrenia . Persons consuming large amounts of stimulants can have sensations that bugs are crawling on their skin or perceive a smell when a source really does not exist . These are not abilities , only temporary delusions - toxic psychosis .

I do agree with some of what you say , yet think you are very incorrect when you try to call it an ability .
 
Quantum,

First let me say what I like about your approach. I like that you are trying to create a new, more positive, outlook into mental illness. Focusing on the positive aspects, and the feeling that what you have can be very useful. Sometimes there are good benefits from the illness. For instance, when clients of ours with bipolar disorder have a bout of mania, we teach them how to use that creatively and to their benefit.

However some abilities people don't want. All most all of my clients who do have hallucinations don't like them and have no desire to harness it. Most of them want to just hold down jobs and have rewarding relationships. We teach them how to do what we call Reality Checks and are thankful to people who help them align their perception to what's really there.

But let me say that I've talked to a few people do enjoy their hallucinations, and that's ok. They can be a source of entertainment, but usaually they are distracting and overwhelming.

I want to ask though, what use can you get out of an ability to see/hear things that aren't there and feel that they are real? I would imagine that most people with mental illness don't want to develop their "abilities", and rather, develop the "ability" of feeling well.
 
I see your point Xenu and I think it is valid.

The greatest ability that in the end we would be trying to achieve is the ability of feeling genuinely happy with the world and one self.

The ability to feel good etc.

I have found that nearly all the abilities exhibited by the patient are fundamental in nature in that when the ability has achieved it's exagerated state it ruins the balance in the infrastructure that helps maintain wellness.

For instance the ability to see visually a hallucination.

Most people are able to visualise and imagine things quite well. Some people see them visualy (with the minds eye) and some people see them non visualy (with the minds eye) the only differece being the intensity of the brightness of what they are seeing. IN a patients case as shown in the film "A beautiful mind" the visualisation or imagination can be extremely visual so much so that it can be seen with the naked eye.

And as you can understand this can be very deluding and confusing, seeing your mind working in such a profound way.

The same appraoch can be applied to auditory "Hallucinations"

IN that really all we have to ask, maybe is, why is the patients thinking so loud? So loud that it manifests as real sound and is entirely distracting and overwhelming in it it's nature.
The humand mind also innately knows when it's integrity is breached. The fear and distress is usually a symptom of loss of integrity.

And of cause if you fear something it tends to never leave you alone. So a patient is at war with his own ability. And well the war becomes self justifying and there is rarely a chance of recovery in full.

Most of the abilities are ones that we have learned as children and the patient has to re-learn them again before he can achieve a certain peace.

So I think that to consider what ability is involved and apply some sort of training (even if subtley) there is a possible future peace for the patient.

When I see a street guy ( in his sixties say) walking around fossicing in bins and picking up cigarette butts for example I try to imagine what abilities he has developed over the years and how we can help him unlearn some and learn new ones etc.

There are many cases that would be incredibly stubborn to this approach, I can think of many. However there are also many cases I can thnk of that would be rather condusive to this approach and maybe this is the place to start.
 
" To deny the ability is to provoke delusion. To nurture the ability is to free the patient of delusion."

But their ability is to have delusions . So you seek to cultivate their delusions in order to help the person not have delusions .

Huh ?

My capability ( ability ) to comprehend some material can be limited . And I can at times be completely incorrect . This topic however is a real head scratcher .

:)
 
Abnak, it's not surprising that you and others are struggling to understand me, anything that provokes change creates conflict and discomfort.

In response to your question about delusion.

I think it wise to look at what a delusion is.

(brainstorming excersise)

Delusion - fraud - misconception - lie - misunderstood truth - subjective reality - an experience not shared with others - etc.

Delusion - denial - mistaken rejection - blindness -etc

Abstraction - If you could experience what the patient experiences would it be considered as a delusion?

A friend goes in to another room and watches a movie that you can't see. He experiences something that you can't consciously share with him.

He comes out and talks about the movie that he saw and you think he must be deluded because you didn't see what he saw.

A guy is standing there talking to a washing machine, we see no communication. We don't share his reality so we call his behaviour as deluded.

The thing is we know we can't share his experience and he cant' share it with us. So is it delusion or is it his subjective reality that we can't understand.

Are we too quick to consider his delusion purely the work of his imagination as if his imagination is self creating and not determined by his environment and hit nature.

What does the imagination feed off?

Abnak and others please excuse the above rambling as an example of my little delusion or should I say the way my mind (I) tend to try and work things out.

We all have the ability to be deluded this is a big part of our mental need, the escape of fiction, the escape from reality even if it can be destructive etc . The patient is only experiencing it in a way that is way over the top, extreme but certainly if we look at him as trying to cope with his exageration then we can possibly get some where.

If we just write of his delusion as an imaginary construction with no sensory causality then we can't help at all.
 
" We all have the ability to be deluded this is a big part of our mental need.... "

Everyone may have the capacity for delusion ( erroneous belief ridgedly held - contrary to overwhelming evidence ) , I even think most people are delusional . Imaginations run wild , fed by their societies constraints as what is and not acceptable and often presented by authoritative fiqures as being correct . The mental need for these people maybe because they require to belong to group where logically addressing facts and their basic insignificance is circumvented with rhetoric . Their escape from reality seems to be an ability that they were taught .

The extreme cases of delusion are what we should be addressing Scott , and not intermixed with "normal" human frailities and confusions , as included in your list . " misconception(s) - misunderstood truth - subjective reality - experience(s) not shared (by) others - etc. "

Erroneous imaginary construction may indeed be borne from environmental factors and incorrectly processing stimulus . But every one is different , and not all fit into the present contrived paradigm where their incorrectness is given a medical term .
 
yes I agree,

We so often fall for the stereotyping trap. Lets find a constant and give it a name or title. When we do we most often forget why we did it in the first place.

Usually we give a title to the group of factors as a convenience and then we forget that we did it only for our convenience and need to organise things and in itself is only a construct.

We forget this and then think that our little label is a fact.... when it isn't. So a state of delusion is created by forgetting the nature of the "Label"

As I am sure you would agree:

The greatest insanity of all is when a people and persons consider themselves to be sane.

Sanity is not an absolute term, and nor is insanity. One can only say that one is only saner than someone else and not just sane.

The same could be said for delusion,

An incorrect assumption held by myself or any one is a state of delusion but necessary to the cause of learning. Over time if I keep at it, my delusions will weaken, as I learn more, or I may accept a falacy as truth and become even more deluded.

If one looks at the world community as a whole and stands back, one can see that humanity is generally quite deluded in so many things, but compared to say 100 years ago it is clear to me that delusion is becoming less and less all the time.

The removal of delusion is always a painful process because the person tends to love his/her little delusion and to let it go is sometimes impossible to consider.

For example science may very well be deluded about the nature of light, in that they consider it to travel at the speed of "c'

This belief is now an assumption of truth and may very well be the greatest obstacle science has in it's scientific pursuits.

The same goes for attitudes towards mental illness causality.
 
Line you draw seems so clear...

Originally posted by kirstykiwi
QQ, you're probably right..
I think it's rather obvious what the difference between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick.
Click to expand...

You've made several statements along the way that were interesting, and controversial in my mind. Assuming of course, that my mind counts - I could be sick, you know. In which case my opinions shouldn't count, as they could be based on a delusional view of the world.

I am not in total agreement with the original poster, please understand. But what disturbs me about the Western approach to mental health are our fairly narrow definitions of what is "mental health" and "mental aberration". I think that is where he was heading with his commentary.

At the extremes, that judgement seems pretty easy. If you have a patient who has zero contact with reality, who is extremely violent and completely incapable of caring for himself, it's pretty clear that he or she is "sick". Certainly he or she is a problem for all of us, without question.

What gets a little murkier is our attitude toward and treatment of a person whose delusions are simply extreme responses to actual situations; who in fact may have savant-like brilliant and valuable insights one moment and whacko ideas about his neighbor's lawn furniture the next. What do we do with those people? That is not clear.

I do find a certain amount of scientist-priest Western arrogance in your statement "I think it's rather obvious what the difference between someone who is religious, and someone who is sick." I'm not sure it is obvious at all. From a Western point of view, many of the religious practices of Hindus and Buddhists would be considered "delusional", and the practices of meditation and fasting in the minds of many Westerners are nothing more that "cult-like".

It's this huge gray area in the middle that I find disturbing about how we define and deal with "mental illness" in the West.
 
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