A logical Republican

[Athelwulf]

Really? Please feel free to point out any illogicality. I am big fatcat corporation, and I act in MY best interest. Screw the people....

Case in point.

But alrighty. I'll point out your ill logic.

Well, you got me on unions, this is something I don't know that much about, nevertheless I will still argue it.

Ditto.

Unions in the States are a joke. They are in my pockets. They do whatever I tell them to do.

Unions are a check against unchecked capitalism, where nothing stops a capitalist from exploiting his workers. It's great to be all for capitalism, but you can't have pure capitalism, because your workers have rights.

Union membership has been declining.

How do you know this?

When was the last decent sized strike? I think it was back then when Ronnie was the prez and he kicked the ass of the airline traffic controllers.

Have you been paying attention?

I am not aware of the problem, but we are against it, unless those are gay/atheist/democrat babies...In that case it is social Darwinism..

So you're okay with some murders, if it's the right people?

Finally something juicy! Thanks.

Honestly, we (big corporations) LOVE illegal immigration, that's why nothing is being done about it. We could stop it in 5 mins, just by following Germany's example, when not the immigrant but the business employing them is fined so harshly, that they can not/dare not efford to do it.

Why do we love illegal immigrants? They are:
-dirt cheap
-non-unionized
-have no legal rights or representation
-basicly they are modern day slaves
-they are good for the economy, because they also spend money here
-they increase the number of people here, what wouldn't happen by natural birth

So we just love them, but it wouldn't be PC to tell you, so guys, this is a secret between me and you. OK?

I've been waiting for someone to say that from a conservative point of view!

I'm not decided on this issue. But in your case, I'll argue the other viewpoint, which may or may not be logical:

You need to pay immigrants the same money you pay other people, because they're people too. They're not slaves ready to be exploited by you.

Also, it's not smart to let the immigrants in so willingly. Once they come here and get employed by you, they'll stay. And if they stay, and you aren't paying them enough, they'll need welfare to survive, and all the welfare money that could be used on people who were here first is being used on the immigrants. And how is that good for us?

I am saying what a big fatcat would tell you when he is drunk and honest...Please notice, I am not the government, although I have influence on the government. I am big business so my problems and interest are not always the same as the administration's...

You're doing a pretty good job of representing a Big Business fatcat.

Which war? We LOVE wars, period. It is good business. Building up the military is actually one of the best businesses. And we have to use the stockpile, otherwise there would be new orders, agreed?

War is unnecessary cavemen brutality. Ever heard of civilization? Of diplomacy? Of not killing people?

I take it you refer to the Iraq war. That is easy. Here you have to follow the line of reasoning.

1. USA gets 60% of its oil from outside and this will INCREASE in the future.
2. Iraq has the 2nd biggest oilreserviors on Earth.
3. Iraq was also a danger to Israel (not to the US), my strongest lobby, and you have to agree, I have to do what my influence wants me to do.
4. Also oil is peaking right now, so in the future the ME oilreserve area is the big PRIZE. Whoever controls it, controls everybody.

So you plan on continuing our addiction to oil, when it's slowly but surely destroying our global climate?

Growing a lot of corn to produce ethanol, an alternative to gasoline, is also a profitable and economically good thing to do. And it won't harm the Earth in the process.

Now, this is not just getting access to it, but also DENYING access to my competitors, meaning China or whomever wants to rule the world. We do, nobody else should. Clear?

Such nationalist arrogance.

You wouldn't want the Chinese taking over Iraq with some kind of false WMD casus beli, would you? It is better us then them or anybody else.

So we're stopping people from fucking up the place by getting the blood on our hands instead?

Of course we had to cook up some stupid story what the average American would eat up, and WMD seemed just fine. After all, we sold a shitload of it to Saddam, who the hell thought he got ride of them?? That is a honest mistake...

Yeah, serves you right.

Then we switched the goal to the Iraqi freedom. This sounds as good as any...

How Orwellian.

But the real reason is oil, and I bet you don't want to pay 3-4$ a gallon for your gas, do you?

You're right, I don't wanna pay money for gas. I want to buy ethanol.

We miscalculated the locals a bit, because we don't know psycology too much.

What do you know?

After all nobody likes occupiers. And boy, we going to stay there until the last drop of oil, I promise you...

Don't be surprised when a civil war erupts.

Oh wait...

We don't like it, because we like globalization. Also at this time and pace it is naive to think a country like America could be isolated. We are way too much involved just pretty much everywhere, our interest is global.

I suppose.

Read again what I wrote about the war and oil, that also explains it...

Yeah. Bad globalism.

Also monetarily we are depending on the Japanese and Chinese buying our bonds. By isolating the country, we would get stuck with nobody financing our standard of living...

What about sustaining ourselves? It would be good for the economy.

Before we discuss abortion or same-sex marriage, I have to explain about subjective/objective issues and the nature of politics.

Some issues in politics are not objective, there is no clear right or wrong. The winner is the right one. Global warming is an objective topic (not the cause of it, but the fact itself).

Moral issues are usually subjective. Your stand depends on your morals, traditions, religious beliefs,etc.

I guess this makes sense. Liberals value liberty, equality, and justice, while conservatives instead value what it was like in the "good ol' days", when these principles only had a lopsided reign.

Yeah, I follow ya.

But, the cause of global warming is in fact objective. It's either one cause (or a set of them), or the other. It's not up for opinion.

So although the sides can argue until they die who is right or wrong, at the end the side is right who is winning POLITICALLY the debate. Screw the arguments and let's bring in the cavalry!!! Is that understandable??

Sure, I guess. Well, liberals are slowly winning this particular battle for civil rights. So I guess liberals are right here.

Now on same-sex marriage we are against it because of the beliefs of our base. That's about it, end of story...

So you don't care?

i just hate those patronizing jackasses.

Oh, me too.

 

[Syzygys]

Man, this is going to be long...

I'll point out your ill logic.

I bet you won't.

How do you know this?

It is a FACT. Check it out. Last year union membership dropped to an all time low.Just because I said I am not an expert on unions, I do know something...

I have to break up your post, because in the quote I only see your lines, and I can't always tell what we are refering to. Can you post in smaller parts
in the future? Thanks...

 

[Syzygys]

Have you been paying attention?

Sure. How many big strikes were in the last 20 years? How come only 13% (I think) of the workforce is unionized?

So you're okay with some murders, if it's the right people?

Correct. Most people actually think the same, except they don't like to say so...

You need to pay immigrants the same money you pay other people, because they're people too. They're not slaves ready to be exploited by you.

That was a figure of speech. Nevertheless, they have basicly no rights whatsever, thus pretty much anything can be done against them. They can be fired at will, no healthcare to be provided, etc.

they'll need welfare to survive, and all the welfare money that could be used on people who were here first is being used on the immigrants. And how is that good for us?

You mistake different interests. What is good for ME, big corporation, doesn't necesserily good for the government or for the people general.

Since I get the extra profit from less cost and the government has to pay for the welfare, why would I care? And I definiatelly don't care about the people...

Got it?

 

[Redefine91]

You need to pay immigrants the same money you pay other people, because they're people too. They're not slaves ready to be exploited by you.

Now wait a second...

1800's Black Slavery had plenty of rebellions. Nat Turner took out something like 25 white people and had 50 something slaves following him before he was hung, off the top of my head. Blacks, while they may have been enslaved, often tried to escape to the north, where they would be treated as real people and paid for their work.

If illegal immigrants aren't slaves, they sure are acting like it. They do the cotton picking of our day. No one wanted to pick it in the 1800's and no one wants to clean septic tanks, build decks, and other disgusting, or physically exhausting jobs. They take the shit wages, thank you, and go on their way. If they wanted more rights they'd revolt or gather together or something.

And, ironically, the only time in recent memory they all had a mass gathering was to PROTEST being sent out of their "plantation." So apparently they like it here. I have no problem paying Illegals shit wages because they get free benefits here. Regular immigrants, are a whole nother story though.

If you don't want half literate illegals with an 8th grade education and limited skills to be treated like slaves, how about informing them to stop acting like it. As immoral as it is, paying illegals low wages is nothing but smart business. Why shouldn't a struggling business look for a way to cut costs? If they immigrant be willing, then what the hell. And you probably say things like "he doesn't know we have minimmum wage and has no idea he's being exploited" Well whos fault is that? Who came here with no idea of the was business and government works? We didn't go to mexico in giant ships and round them up by the hundreds. They came here, and they were LOOKING for work. Theres a big difference between that and being shackled up to work for nothing.

 

[Syzygys]

War is unnecessary cavemen brutality. Ever heard of civilization? Of diplomacy? Of not killing people?

I am not following you. I CARE about interest and profits, I don't care about morality...

So you plan on continuing our addiction to oil, when it's slowly but surely destroying our global climate?

Yeap, after all, this is an oiladministration. Come on, the energyplan of the country was made up by oilbusiness executives in a secret meeting!!!

How is that for democracy, by the way???

And it won't harm the Earth in the process.

What is the quarterly earnings of ethanol companies? I might have to look into those...

So we're stopping people from fucking up the place by getting the blood on our hands instead?

1. We are stopping others of taking over the place.
2. I most certainly don't care about sacrifice, as long as others have to do it...
3. Did you know that annually we lose more people to GLUTTONY than in Iraq? (1500 people die of gastrobypass surgery a year as compared to 1000 soldiers in Iraq)

What about sustaining ourselves? It would be good for the economy.

Too late. The last year when the US was energy independent was 1949!!!!!

Thanks for the feedback, we actually agreed on most things...

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Syzygys, why aren't you doing this from a liberal view point? as most liberals don't provide anything but politically correct argument in support of their view point, there is no logic in political correctness, only feel good, if we were logical about energy independence we would be drilling our own resources right know, but it is politically incorrect to do so because of the environmental lobby, the technology that has been developed today for drilling is the safest it has ever been, and spills are a minor occurrence any more, and drilling fields do not have to be spread out allover the landscape any more, slant drilling, and then there is the nuclear energy political correctness, if we were logical about new nuclear plants we would reap a two fold benefit, the air pollution would be reduced and again oil consumption would be reduced, show me anything were the Liberals use logic in their thought process?

 

[Athelwulf]

Man, this is going to be long...

Haha. Sorry.

It is a FACT. Check it out. Last year union membership dropped to an all time low.Just because I said I am not an expert on unions, I do know something...

Well now you've piqued my curiosity. Do you have any sources?

I have to break up your post, because in the quote I only see your lines, and I can't always tell what we are refering to. Can you post in smaller parts
in the future? Thanks...

Habit of mine, now that we have a button to click to quote several posts. Sorry. I won't do it when I respond to you.

 

[Athelwulf]

Sure. How many big strikes were in the last 20 years? How come only 13% (I think) of the workforce is unionized?

However many people are in unions and how many strikes there have been doesn't matter. This may simply mean that the unions are working as an effective check against the moralistic flaws of capitalism. These checks must be preserved.

Correct. Most people actually think the same, except they don't like to say so...

So that gives you the right to do the same? You wouldn't jump off a bridge, I hope...

That was a figure of speech. Nevertheless, they have basicly no rights whatsever, thus pretty much anything can be done against them. They can be fired at will, no healthcare to be provided, etc.

All men are created equal. And not anything can be done to them, because they are undeniably people. I wonder what the authors of the Declaration of Independence would've thought about your way of thinking.

You mistake different interests. What is good for ME, big corporation, doesn't necesserily good for the government or for the people general.

You have a responsibility to not do anything that is bad for society.

Since I get the extra profit from less cost and the government has to pay for the welfare, why would I care? And I definiatelly don't care about the people...

Got it?

Who are they getting the money from in order to pay welfare? Your profits may very well go towards an increase in taxes needed to pay welfare for all the immigrants you're paying poorly.

 

[Athelwulf]

I am not following you. I CARE about interest and profits, I don't care about morality...

Thus is your folly.

What is the quarterly earnings of ethanol companies? I might have to look into those...

I'm not sure. But I bet they'd be a lot higher if we relied on ethanol instead of oil for gasoline.

1. We are stopping others of taking over the place.

And now the blood is on our hands.

2. I most certainly don't care about sacrifice, as long as others have to do it...

You may have to sacrifice in ways you aren't thinking about currently.

3. Did you know that annually we lose more people to GLUTTONY than in Iraq? (1500 people die of gastrobypass surgery a year as compared to 1000 soldiers in Iraq)

How can someone rationalize death like this?

It would make more sense if we were somehow okay with how many people die of gastrobypass surgery, and didn't care at all about reducing those numbers. It would also make more sense if these deaths were, furthermore, intentional, and we were okay with it.

Too late. The last year when the US was energy independent was 1949!!!!!

It's never too late to boost our economy by relying on domestically produced goods.

Thanks for the feedback, we actually agreed on most things...

Good to hear.

 

[Syzygys]

Syzygys, why aren't you doing this from a liberal view point?

I might do so after I am done with this. But right now I am having too much fun. There is one major difference though. Liberals have no political representation right now, since both parties are pro-business/corporation/rich people, with very slight real differences....

The liberal media bias is also a myth, done by us, big fatcats....

 

[Syzygys]

Well now you've piqued my curiosity. Do you have any sources?

Of course I do. But since in the future you can do it yourself, I typed "low union membership" into Google:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/01/25/union-membership-drops-to-historic-low/

"The number of wage and salary workers who were union members dropped to 12 percent of the work force last year,” the AP reports, “the lowest percentage since the government started tracking that number over two decades ago.” Workers represented by unions earn 28 percent more than nonunion workers, are 62 percent more likely to have medical insurance through their jobs, and are four-and-a-half times as likely to have guaranteed pensions. "

Now you understand why we don't like unions. It is cheaper to pay off their leadership then giving raise to the workers...

 

[Syzygys]

However many people are in unions and how many strikes there have been doesn't matter.

Well, no. Unions get their strength from numbers. And their activities can be measured by either the number of strikes (lots of unhappy people) or the numbers (lots of happy people) You have to start to read alternative resources if you want to get the correct pictures on everything.

So that gives you the right to do the same?

Nope, but I am with the majority's view on that one...

All men are created equal.

In your dream and in a perfect world yes, otherwise no. Please tell me if the children of princess Diana are equal to a child born with HIV in black Africa, whose both parents are dead due to AIDS?

I am guessing you are rather young and idealistic. You will grow out of both...

I wonder what the authors of the Declaration of Independence would've thought about your way of thinking.

They would agree with me, because they were just like me. They were rich, white, protestants, racist, sexist and they cared about independence because of BUSINESS. No taxation without representation, right?

You have a responsibility to not do anything that is bad for society.

OK, here we are in a political/history class not in church. So let's keep idealistic moralizing to a minimium, and by minimum, I mean zero....

Who are they getting the money from in order to pay welfare?

From you middleclass workers. Corporations and rich people don't like to pay taxes and they have the brains and the means to avoid them...

 

[Syzygys]

But I bet they'd be a lot higher if we relied on ethanol instead of oil for gasoline.

OK, this is a secret again, so let's keep it between you and me.

Of course we could follow Brazil's example and switch to ethanol. But that would be bad for ME, big oilbusiness. And I am not stupid, I am not going to screw myself so just the people can be happy. The government is in my pocket. Now you could make a good argument that what is bad for the country, it is going to be bad for everybody in the long run.
Probably so. But my oilguys are rich thus their point of breaking is much higher then the average Americans. Right now it is a conflict of interest, and the American public is losing. As long as the people or the government can make us be interested in alternative resources, we won't try to switch.

Hey, after all we successfully killed the electric car!!

And now the blood is on our hands.

Again, we are not interested in morals, just in profits...

Man, anytime I think of war, I get a hard on. First we make a shitload of profit by bombing them back to the stoneage, then once we won, we make another disgusting profit (hey, $200 hammer anyone?) by rebuilding the same country....I just LOVE government orders...They sign the bills without looking at them....

 

[Syzygys]

I have just ran into this. Education on both illegal immigrants in the meatpacking industry and the unions' eroding power:

http://counterpunch.org/kutalik02022007.html

Here is the funky stuff:

"Since the late 1990s, however, immigrant workers in the industry have at times been more willing than union officials to fight for better conditions in the plants."

By the way, next topic?

 

[Athelwulf]

Of course I do. But since in the future you can do it yourself, I typed "low union membership" into Google:

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/01/25/union-membership-drops-to-historic-low/

"The number of wage and salary workers who were union members dropped to 12 percent of the work force last year,” the AP reports, “the lowest percentage since the government started tracking that number over two decades ago.” Workers represented by unions earn 28 percent more than nonunion workers, are 62 percent more likely to have medical insurance through their jobs, and are four-and-a-half times as likely to have guaranteed pensions. "

Now you understand why we don't like unions. It is cheaper to pay off their leadership then giving raise to the workers...

You don't like unions because they prevent you from doing whatever the fuck you want. The low numbers probably means something, but I'm sure it doesn't mean they're utterly useless.

 

[Athelwulf]

Well, no. Unions get their strength from numbers. And their activities can be measured by either the number of strikes (lots of unhappy people) or the numbers (lots of happy people) You have to start to read alternative resources if you want to get the correct pictures on everything.

Unions probably have low numbers because things are working. They're effectively acting as a check against the less moral aspects of capitalism. Therefore, they shouldn't be abolished just because you don't like giving them what they rightfully deserve.

In your dream and in a perfect world yes, otherwise no. Please tell me if the children of princess Diana are equal to a child born with HIV in black Africa, whose both parents are dead due to AIDS?

In human rights, they are.

I am guessing you are rather young and idealistic. You will grow out of both...

You wish.

They would agree with me, because they were just like me. They were rich, white, protestants, racist, sexist and they cared about independence because of BUSINESS. No taxation without representation, right?

Yeah. That stuff they wrote in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution is just hot air, right?

OK, here we are in a political/history class not in church. So let's keep idealistic moralizing to a minimium, and by minimum, I mean zero....

You wish to be immoral and get away with it. As long as your greed is satiated. Very interesting. This says a lot about your character.

From you middleclass workers. Corporations and rich people don't like to pay taxes and they have the brains and the means to avoid them...

Whatever the middle class pays in taxes doesn't get paid on your goods and services. Think about that.

 

[Athelwulf]

OK, this is a secret again, so let's keep it between you and me.

Of course we could follow Brazil's example and switch to ethanol. But that would be bad for ME, big oilbusiness. And I am not stupid, I am not going to screw myself so just the people can be happy. The government is in my pocket. Now you could make a good argument that what is bad for the country, it is going to be bad for everybody in the long run.
Probably so. But my oilguys are rich thus their point of breaking is much higher then the average Americans. Right now it is a conflict of interest, and the American public is losing. As long as the people or the government can make us be interested in alternative resources, we won't try to switch.

Hey, after all we successfully killed the electric car!!

You can switch from being an oil company to an ethanol company. That's where the money will go, and you love money.

Again, we are not interested in morals, just in profits...

That much is obvious. Your greed is getting the best of you.

Man, anytime I think of war, I get a hard on. First we make a shitload of profit by bombing them back to the stoneage, then once we won, we make another disgusting profit (hey, $200 hammer anyone?) by rebuilding the same country....I just LOVE government orders...They sign the bills without looking at them....

I just love it when people show their true nature.

By the way, you're good.

 

[Mr. G]

Honeybun, you missed the operative word. It was THAT.

So, let's follow leftie logic according to Syzygys...

THAT is a logical argument, in and of itself, just as is is; whatever is is when it needs to be the situationally appropriate is.

THAT is that which is THAT when operatively not to be missed.

THAT is so is.

That is logic for lefties.

 

[Mr.Spock]

So, let's follow leftie logic according to Syzygys...

THAT is a logical argument, in and of itself, just as is is; whatever is is when it needs to be the situationally appropriate is.

THAT is that which is THAT when operatively not to be missed.

THAT is so is.

That is logic for lefties.

LOL

 

[Syzygys]

So,

Sweetheart, my Argu-meter failed to detect any argument in your post. Is it broken or there was really none in it?

Why don't you come back when you are ready? Until that, enjoy the Super Bowl....