A God We Know Nothing About

[PsychoticEpisode]

sorry to butt in


are you suggesting; you are evolving?

No but as an stage in human development I am a segment

but

Mentally, no. Perhaps my brain is configured differently than others, I don't know and I'm not going to believe it is although I would be within my rights to do so.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

well said, i agree

Then WHY don't you say Existence rather God & WHY do you refer to it as him???

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

The fact is that JA is not interested in finding out the truth about God, the evidence is in his writings (masqueraded as enquiry) .

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

The "fact" is that PE is not interested in finding out the truth about God, the evidence is in his writings (masqueraded as enquiry) .

jan.

In essence she is right. I want to know God exists first, about him second. It's the secondary information that I do not wish to learn and for good reason. Because Jan, none of it is worthwhile unless the primary information is a known fact. So it might be pertinent to establish the primary as fact.

You can believe in God, good for you. But that's it Jan, you're up to your knees in quicksand, same as I.

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

No, Jan is not right. You cannot know anything about it until you know it exists therefore the truth starts there & if not proven, ends there.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

QUOTE=StrangerInAStrangeLa;2216705]The fact is that JA is not interested in finding out the truth about God, the evidence is in his writings (masqueraded as enquiry) .[/QUOTE]

The nail has been struck on the head

That might make a good thread..... Who's afraid of the truth? One stipulation....we only talk about the existence of God? In any case it would probably still contain more scripture quotes than one could comprehend from those who don't get it..

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

No, Jan is not right. You cannot know anything about it until you know it exists therefore the truth starts there & if not proven, ends there.

I agree. Isn't that what I said? I would like to know if God really exists but I don't need to know anything about him right now, that which consists of all the unknown truths. Establish God first, then talk.

 

[Bishadi]

I agree. Isn't that what I said? I would like to know if God really exists but I don't need to know anything about him right now, that which consists of all the unknown truths. Establish God first, then talk.

i disagree;

establish what 'is' true, as in what EACH can experience, then find GOD. (if that is the term many wish to use)

remember, each person was taught where the first meal was (to live) before ever learning a word.

Learn of life, then seek to live in truth.

 

[Sarkus]

Belief can always be considered rational when there is no direct knowledge of anything involved and speculation is the only viable alternative. I for one cannot entirely discount that a god(s) exists. The theist/atheist argument rests solely on this claim: God is or isn't. To substantiate either side's take would require knowledge that is currently unavailable.

I disagree with your first sentence. In such a case as you posit, the only rational position is one of no belief at all - not one of belief in existence or belief in non-existence, but in "no belief".

Atheists, or at least the definition of atheist I use, includes anyone who lacks belief in the existence of God. A sub-set of these are those who also believe in God's non-existence. But to me it is not a prerequisite to being atheist... one must simply not be theist.

Anyhoo - back to the irrationality of it...

Belief in something where the something is "unknown" / "unknowable" is that it fails Occam's Razor... i.e. if it is "unknowable", surely it is superfluous to requirement.
If it is not superfluous then we must at least know something about it... e.g. that it is not superfluous. And thus it is not "unknowable" - at least not in an absolute sense.

So to believe in anything that is truly "unknowable" is indeed irrational.
As is to believe in the non-existence of the thing.

The rational position is to hold no position of belief with regard to it.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

I disagree with your first sentence.

Belief can always be considered rational when there is no direct knowledge of anything involved and speculation is the only viable alternative.

The first sentence was meant as the believer sees it, as in speculation being their only choice. The words can be considered doesn't imply this is for everybody does it? If it does then I'll retract it as a bad choice of words. If all one can do is speculate then to that person it is a rational thing to do or to be expected from, I would think.

I always found it fascinating that the God being believed in is always one that fits the believer's life, needs or problems and is generally a benevolent deity. Not too many gods are out there to wreak havoc on you but when you look around at the global mess you would think an evil God would be the first deity thought of. I often have wondered that if God was a malevolent, people would do their damnest to not please him, like trying to live in peace for one thing.

 

[TheVisitor]

The fact is you believe in God. This makes you a theist. You cannot know about God for if you did then you would have no reason to believe in Him.

That doesn't work in any situation.
Let's test your "theory" shall we?

You cannot know about God [ the law, the police, a speed limit on a dangerous curve...]for if you did then you would have no reason to believe in Him [the law, the police, a speed limit on a dangerous curve...]

You deny that speed limit one time and go flying off a cliff and tell me then how much you still don't believe in it.
Please...give me a break.
You'll believe and have a greater knowledge of it at the same time, if you live to tell the story.

The bible is a book, this is fact. Let's say i never saw one but believed a bible exists. If I didn't know a book from a car then I would need to at least see a book with my own eyes to acknowledge its existence. Can I test this? Yes. My belief in a bible would end right there.

No. Belief in something that exists doesn't mean that at all.

You can believe that "red point Siamese exist" even though you have never seen one.
Then one day you see one and guess what?
Your belief is even stronger because it's now backed up with firsthand knowledge.
The one doesn't counteract or contradict the other.


I not here to fault you for not believing in God.
I'm more concerned with others who might believe your faulty reasoning and be taken in by it.
That's why I am straightening this out for the record.
Your logic is flawed to begin with and doesn't hold up in this or any other situation for that matter.

And that fact....has nothing to do with religion.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑

Sarkus: see above

It's like God was listening

 

[TheVisitor]

I always found it fascinating that the God being believed in is always one that fits the believer's life, needs or problems and is generally a benevolent deity.
Not too many gods are out there to wreak havoc on you but when you look around at the global mess you would think an evil God would be the first deity thought of.

After reading this, I think you may be on the right track after all.
There are about three thousand denominations out there just in so-called "Christianity" alone.
You haven't been taken in by them yet and that's a good sign.

The ones that fell worshiped God and stood in His presence for Aeons.
That would make them experts at impersonation wouldn't it?
The God of heaven isn't the only god mentioned in the bible, friend.
There are millions of malevolent spirits seething through the very air that you breathe with every breath you take.
You think that's air you're breathing?
You think those are your thoughts?
You keep asking questions like the ones above and you might just get yourself the answer.

But unless you're willing to go all the way....

"Don't look for it Taylor, you may not like what you find".

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

There are millions of malevolent spirits seething through the very air that you breathe with every breath you take.

OK then...Gods are good but spirits are bad. Spirits often are labelled as such.
The easiest thing for me to do right now is to ask you to show me but I won't go there. However the belief in spirits in the air intrigues me. Just how many things must be believed in order for spirits to enter my lungs?

One would first have to believe there are spirits. This is the speculative thought that spawns the rest. There is no way of testing for spirits and I'd have to think the believer knows this. Feeling rather secure about his declaration the believer expands on the first thought and the rest is history. How & why people buy into it is another thing.

 

[lightgigantic]

Is there anybody here who believes in God(s) and yet is quite prepared to leave it at that. IOW, admit that it is impossible to speculate on God's existence or non-existence, thus eliminating anything religiously associated with a god or gods as the case may be. All you have is a belief that a God exists.

Given that action and values are intrinsically related, it appears that you are asking whether a person can have such a low value of god that the action comes to a practical standstill. (the answer is "yes" of course)

Would atheists be more receptive to a believer that does not try to expand their beliefs.... i.e. philosophies, bibles, churches, rites, etc.?

given that such action (and thus lack of value) would appeal to the values of the atheist, at a guess, they might even publicly endorse it if it worked out cheaper than an advertising campaign.

Would atheists/theists be less inclined to argue?

Would such a belief be seen as too close to being atheist for most theists and vice versa? Would society benefit or be constantly muddled in the belief/non-belief controversy?

You cannot talk of society "benefiting" unless you introduce some sort of value system

Personally I can accept someone's belief in a god if only they were willing to leave it at that.

Leave at what?
Justifying one's values in a social forum (like sci for example)?
What if they don't have computer access because their home got bombed?

(IOW social expression and voice is very much connected to needs interests and concerns - big difference between a union meeting amongst wharfies and morning tea at the public library)

Does the willingness of both sides to accept the other become greater if both parties agree to disagree?

To a greater extent, yes.

But since issues of "action" always spring up around "value" its not like it will ever be smooth going

For atheists, is it possible that it isn't the belief in a god that we find most perturbing but how all the trappings eventually become integrated with everyday life's decisions and policies?

I guess the solution to these pesky "actions" springing up is to introduce a value system to eradicate them, eh?

 

[TheVisitor]

OK then...Gods are good but spirits are bad. Spirits often are labelled as such.
The easiest thing for me to do right now is to ask you to show me but I won't go there.

I never said gods are good, spirits are bad....
It's not that easy to discern good from evil.

No way to test for the existence of spirits?

Take a cancerous tumor.
It has a life force of it's own that feeds upon your life and exists to destroy you.
Kill the tumor with radiation, chemo or prayer even...
The body of the tumor still exists unless it's removed by surgery, but the life is gone.
It rots, you get sicker until your body absorbs it and your blood carries off little by little the decaying mass.
The life of the tumor...what was it? It was trying to even destroy the very host it needed for it's own life.
The healing energy within you, what was it? It was trying to restore you to being whole.
There are two different spirits at work within you.
Doctors can set a bone, but they can't make it heal.
That's from God.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

You cannot talk of society "benefiting" unless you introduce some sort of value system

That's like introducing another god. For one thing the Pope wouldn't be telling me not to use a condom. How would you like to work for a prophylactic company and have him shoot his mouth off like that when you've got mouths to feed at home.(double whammy...poor guy)

What if they don't have computer access because their home got bombed?

Perhaps an ad on the side of a bus.

I guess the solution to these pesky "actions" springing up is to introduce a value system to eradicate them, eh?

You saying a real one exists today. Is this a belief you have? Does it start with God? If it does then I think we are going to have problems agreeing if we continue on here.

 

[lightgigantic]

How would you like to work for a prophylactic company and have him shoot his mouth off like that when you've got mouths to feed at home.(double whammy...poor guy)

... and how would you like to volunteer as a groundsman for your local parish?

Perhaps an ad on the side of a bus.

Something you have personal experience with organizing, eh?

You saying a real one exists today.

sure

Is this a belief you have? Does it start with God? If it does then I think we are going to have problems agreeing if we continue on here.

try googling "proactive interference" and "schema" for more details.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

I never said gods are good....oh no.
You are missing the point.

No way to test for the existence of spirits?

Take a cancerous tumor.
It has a life force of it's own that feeds upon your life and exists to destroy you.
Kill the tumor with radiation, chemo or prayer even...
The body of the tumor still exists inside you unless it's removed by surgery, but the life is gone.

The life of the tumor...what was it?

Did you join a little club that gets together in the basement of a house that you have no idea of who it belongs to? Do you sit around in a little circle while some guy strums a badly tuned guitar and sings praises to a god in a voice like fingernails on a chalkboard? At some point do you stop and listen while some guy encourages you to believe in the lord and how it is important to give all that you have to Him all the while convincing you to sell flowers down at the corner of Main & Elm for the mission? Later on do they bring in some guy who talks to you in tongues? Do you all pray for one thing common to the group and it somehow appears at the front door?

Are any of these things are happening to you? .

Sorry, you remind me of someone. You're knocking the starch out of me but not with your rebuttals unfortunately. Viz.... I see no point in arguing with you, your logic has surpassed some strange level of coherence I can't comprehend. I really don't know of anybody that could argue with you on your playing field. Maybe LG.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

... and how would you like to volunteer as a groundsman for your local parish?

You would be surprised. If you only knew where I'm going next(somewhere in the world) I think you'd faint. Stop by and say hello.

try googling "proactive interference" and "schema" for more details

I can't recollect properly but I think we've been down that road before. Maybe if I reorganize my thoughts I'll be able to think straighter.