A God We Know Nothing About

:shrug:....if I plagerized it then I didn't do it on purpose. Ironic in a thread about not knowing.:D
fair

and even to plagerize something is not horid, i still learned a lesson, especially when you are willing to suggest; maybe i wasn't the first....

that is something i can honor

I would be lying if I said I concerned myself about studying those matters. Sure, from time to time it comes up in conversations. But I know that I can't know.... Jan may think that makes me complacent but you see the difference. As I've mentioned.... believe it and leave it at that, works both ways.

again fair............. nothing better than an honest person, as it allows trust to evolve.

;)
 
PE>>....... do you see how the complacent become defensive rather than objective?

this is where i see integrity fails many when it comes to beliefs

almost like the 2LoT.........some are just so wrapped up in what they accept as fact, rather than allow knowledge to evolve as it has since the first word ever 'created' by mankind!

Maybe you have placed more importance than is necessary to what I am responding to? :)

I found it oppressive.

jan.
 
I don't believe in God. Whether he exists or not..I wouldn't be able to have faith in "it".

I'm not really an atheist, but I believe that if less religious people would try to expand their belief across the globe then less people would feel confronted with this issue and therefore would probably never or almost never think about it. Offering people the possibility to check out your religion, or to at least learn something about its existence is cool since I consider religion as one of our most important cultural factors, but as soon as you're trying to explain the "heretics" that their life is valueless without a God and Jesus, then I think you've crossed the line of...tolerable.
 
Is there anybody here who believes in God(s) and yet is quite prepared to leave it at that. IOW, admit that it is impossible to speculate on God's existence or non-existence, thus eliminating anything religiously associated with a god or gods as the case may be. All you have is a belief that a God exists.
I doubt many people would truly hold such a belief... nearly all beliefs in God come with at least a few concepts of God attached (e.g. benevolent).

Further, one who comes to the conclusion that God is unknowable would almost certainly be someone who recognises the irrationality of belief in such a God... but would rather merely conclude that "it is a possibility" - along with every other logical possibility.

Next, the person would be unlikely to refer to this as a "belied in God" but rather a belief in a first-cause, or some such, as they should realise that the very label "God" comes loaded with various baggage that they don't want.

Also there are many things that might exist that we can know nothing about (e.g. anything external to our universe) but can merely speculate on.

So, ultimately, such a belief, as proposed, would be nothing more than a declaration that "I believe there exists things that are unknowable".
If someone wants to call this a belief in "God"... hmmm.


I'd probably still call them out on it. Not their belief per se but their willingness to attach the label of "God" to this unknowable thing they believe exists.
 
Is there anybody here who believes in God(s) and yet is quite prepared to leave it at that. IOW, admit that it is impossible to speculate on God's existence or non-existence, thus eliminating anything religiously associated with a god or gods as the case may be. All you have is a belief that a God exists.

I wonder if it is possible to believe in such a thing without expressing some form of idolatry. I would think that it would become a natural course of direction to explore even the most vague belief in god.

Would atheists be more receptive to a believer that does not try to expand their beliefs.... i.e. philosophies, bibles, churches, rites, etc.? Would atheists/theists be less inclined to argue? Would such a belief be seen as too close to being atheist for most theists and vice versa? Would society benefit or be constantly muddled in the belief/non-belief controversy?

The most basic belief would eventually evolve into a religion in due time, but for the sake of argument, I think that an atheist would still be inclined to argue the existence of a god, regardless of the absence of ritual and dogma. There would still be a squabble.

Personally I can accept someone's belief in a god if only they were willing to leave it at that. Does the willingness of both sides to accept the other become greater if both parties agree to disagree?

Both opinions would play a role in society. I find it hard to believe that a belief in god, no matter how basic, doesn't come with some preconceived notions concerning ethical and moral questions. For sure, atheist have their own set of values, too.

For atheists, is it possible that it isn't the belief in a god that we find most perturbing but how all the trappings eventually become integrated with everyday life's decisions and policies?

I'm certain that they find the trapping most irritating, but I've never met one who didn't love to argue about the nonexistence of a god.
 
I find it hard to believe that a belief in god, no matter how basic, doesn't come with some preconceived notions

The Heisenberg Principle of Faith: You cannot believe in God and know anything about Him at the same time. You cannot have knowledge of a God and belief in it at the same time.

Any idea or notion is speculation. To know with absolute certainty even one thing about the Almighty would eliminate the belief. A theist is a believer first, speculator second. Theists know nothing of the god they believe in, it can't be any other way. To know would discount their theism.
 
The Heisenberg Principle of Faith: You cannot believe in God and know anything about Him at the same time. You cannot have knowledge of a God and belief in it at the same time.

Any idea or notion is speculation. To know with absolute certainty even one thing about the Almighty would eliminate the belief. A theist is a believer first, speculator second. Theists know nothing of the god they believe in, it can't be any other way. To know would discount their theism.


Faith is the foundational gift, yes...but according to II PETER 1:5-8 it is just the beginning of the journey.
The believer who is given this faith then adds to it theses other things.

II PETER 1:5-7
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.


Faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity.
These seven comprise the stature of a perfect man.
You see that knowledge is not only allowed but expected as a part of normal growth.

II PETER 1:8
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


EPHESIANS 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:


The mystery of God is...Christ in you, the hope of glory. Colossians 1:27
We are not only to know something about God, but we are to become one with Him.
"I'm in the Father, the Father is in me, I in you, you in Me"...
That is the very definition of knowledge in every meaning of the term.

Your "Heisenberg Principle" does not apply to the Bible and I would question any other place it has also been used.
No square circles or boxes too big for God to lift...
Come on please. Let's be serious here.
This is Sciforums after all.
 
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You asked....What do you think happens here all the time?

Fact is, there are no tests that can substantiate a god claim. If one believes in god then all things connected to it are also non-testable beliefs. You can't even call it theory.

No, Psychotic Episode: FACT IS THAT YOU ARE JUST NOT INTERESTED ENOUGH TO FIND OUT THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD.
 
it is impossible to speculate on God's existence or non-existence,

Epicurus and the Buddha both had positions equivalent to this.

Epicurus felt that if there are gods, then by there nature they have no concern with us.

The Buddha felt the gods were irrelevant in that only you can find enlightenment for yourself and that if there are gods, then they are so beyond our conception of god that calling them gods cannot be even close.

Personally I feel any god that requires belief isn't much of a god.
 
No, Psychotic Episode: FACT IS THAT YOU ARE JUST NOT INTERESTED ENOUGH TO FIND OUT THE TRUTH ABOUT GOD.

What facts are you presenting?

You do know that without actually presenting any facts, you are making his point for him?
 
What facts are you presenting?

You do know that without actually presenting any facts, you are making his point for him?

The "fact" is that PE is not interested in finding out the truth about God, the evidence is in his writings (masqueraded as enquiry) .

jan.
 
=====

believers of theology often break the very rules of the belief.

The bending of rules is what alienates believers from just being honest.

For example: existence says (per bible) that man was born in the garden (nature) but then many believe existence was mad at man and kicked him out of the garden, but that isn't correct per genesis 3 as existence was sharing as if proud.

And in reality, as much as we all wish to think we are separate from nature, we all know we can never leave nature.

My point here, if is mother nature is existence himself, then she was our creator, our beginning and ending and our life's blood all in one.

As then we can see, that for mankind to 'believe' they are separat from the garden, then by choice, them folk have isolated themselves from existence.

That is how and why i believe the believers break the rules of theology by even considering themselve ever separate from existence; some are in the belief, existence is on a thrown (how far it's thrown, i don't presently aware.), which not only is impossible to prove, but incurs the amercanidol mentality and isolation from direct responsibility.

But to know existence is, all that exists (all of existence/nature), then not only is mankind describing him (with words/math) but also capable of experiencing him, teaching about him, and conveying knowledge to the next generations to honor him.

The biggest difference, is that a existence on a thrown (out of the ballpark), and a existence as all that is, are like having an idol to worship or being capable of appreciating just being alive. If each person knew that every step you take and every action you impose to exist, by choice, was right on existence's back, in his life, in his world; then responsibility would begin to be known by each person alive and conscious.

So there is much to know about existence, the issue is, is your existence on a thrown(in other word, overhandednesses or innerhandednessses?) or do you appreciate life and thankful for every breath you take?


============
and i would say, that by reading the globes theological renditions; then lots of speculation is rampant.

That would be the pinnacle, kind of like the apocolypse (to reveal) in which as most of the old writting suggested, a day would come when mankind will understand.

Now observing that we as a species were born within all of existence, then in a real sense, we the children of existence.

We learn, we share, we comprehend compassion; we know love all the while still submissive to existence (nature).

And since every word in existence was created by mankind, then it makes sense that everything we know of existence, came from mankind within the body of mother nature.

The divide could not come from existence, but from mankind and i suggest it is based from words


====
 
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Faith is the foundational gift, yes...but according to II PETER 1:5-8 it is just the beginning of the journey.
The believer who is given this faith then adds to it theses other things.

II PETER 1:5-7
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.


Faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity.
These seven comprise the stature of a perfect man.
You see that knowledge is not only allowed but expected as a part of normal growth.

II PETER 1:8
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


EPHESIANS 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:


The mystery of God is...Christ in you, the hope of glory. Colossians 1:27
We are not only to know something about God, but we are to become one with Him.
"I'm in the Father, the Father is in me, I in you, you in Me"...
That is the very definition of knowledge in every meaning of the term.

Your "Heisenberg Principle" does not apply to the Bible and I would question any other place it has also been used.
No square circles or boxes too big for God to lift...
Come on please. Let's be serious here.
This is Sciforums after all.

The fact is you believe in God. This makes you a theist. You cannot know about God for if you did then you would have no reason to believe in Him. God would be a known quantity. Can you test this? No. Belief in God continues.

The bible is a book, this is fact. Let's say i never saw one but believed a bible exists. If I didn't know a book from a car then I would need to at least see a book with my own eyes to acknowledge its existence. Can I test this? Yes. My belief in a bible would end right there.

How many times have theists been asked to prove their stance? Countless times. What I'm saying is that if you believe then you obviously haven't proven anything. You are not required to prove God if you only believe in Him. However this would have to take an admission from the theist that they just don't know anything about the God they believe in. Basically that would remove any challenge to a theist about proving their God.

So I`m right back where I started. All you have to do is believe or not believe and leave it at that.
 
What I'm saying is that if you believe then you obviously haven't proven anything.

PE, this must be an issue with semantics. Surely you are not saying that once something is proven, you no longer believe in it? (i.e. you don't believe in facts)

(Also, lest this comment be misconstrued, I am agnostic and not promoting any god, factual or faith based)
 
I doubt many people would truly hold such a belief... nearly all beliefs in God come with at least a few concepts of God attached (e.g. benevolent).

Unfortunately that is the case.

Further, one who comes to the conclusion that God is unknowable would almost certainly be someone who recognises the irrationality of belief in such a God... but would rather merely conclude that "it is a possibility" - along with every other logical possibility

Belief can always be considered rational when there is no direct knowledge of anything involved and speculation is the only viable alternative. I for one cannot entirely discount that a god(s) exists. The theist/atheist argument rests solely on this claim: God is or isn't. To substantiate either side's take would require knowledge that is currently unavailable.

Next, the person would be unlikely to refer to this as a "belief in God" but rather a belief in a first-cause, or some such, as they should realise that the very label "God" comes loaded with various baggage that they don't want.

The trouble is they can't. Without personification, there would be no theists.(I'd have to rethink Bishadi's nature is God conclusion although I don't believe he thinks of nature as an entity)

Also there are many things that might exist that we can know nothing about (e.g. anything external to our universe) but can merely speculate on.

Agreed..... In a nutshell this is what I've been contending. Ok to speculate on God as first cause. However to speculate on a speculation.... well then you've simply crossed the boundary from the sublime to the ridiculous.

So, ultimately, such a belief, as proposed, would be nothing more than a declaration that "I believe there exists things that are unknowable".
If someone wants to call this a belief in "God"... hmmm.

Exactly. How many theists would freely admit that God is one of the unknowables? I wish they all would admit this because everything else connected to it, i.e. religion, is also in the same category. The ones that do admit god is unknown and are prepared to live with just that are the true believers.

I'd probably still call them out on it. Not their belief per se but their willingness to attach the label of "God" to this unknowable thing they believe exists

That is your prerogative and is essential to a vibrant discussion forum.

Been fun:D
 
Unfortunately that is the case.



Belief can always be considered rational when there is no direct knowledge of anything involved and speculation is the only viable alternative. I for one cannot entirely discount that a god(s) exists. The theist/atheist argument rests solely on this claim: God is or isn't. To substantiate either side's take would require knowledge that is currently unavailable.



The trouble is they can't. Without personification, there would be no theists.(I'd have to rethink Bishadi's nature is God conclusion although I don't believe he thinks of nature as an entity)



Agreed..... In a nutshell this is what I've been contending. Ok to speculate on God as first cause. However to speculate on a speculation.... well then you've simply crossed the boundary from the sublime to the ridiculous.



Exactly. How many theists would freely admit that God is one of the unknowables? I wish they all would admit this because everything else connected to it, i.e. religion, is also in the same category. The ones that do admit god is unknown and are prepared to live with just that are the true believers.



That is your prerogative and is essential to a vibrant discussion forum.

Been fun:D

must take your fire; as that was fun for me too (awesome post)

if each were born with such wisdom, offered to them at a young age, mankind would have a much better chance as a whole to eventually reach the peaks of the unknown knowledge.

i see knowledge is evolving; mankind is basically conscious mass, defining itself

it is almost like existence (God) as the collective of mass, energy and all time into ONE, in which we were all born within (evolved) and capable of understanding our presence/existence.... of itself.

kind of esoteric but i believe it is a fair analogy, any others see something in the idea?

Is existence defining itself?
 
PE, this must be an issue with semantics. Surely you are not saying that once something is proven, you no longer believe in it? (i.e. you don't believe in facts)

(Also, lest this comment be misconstrued, I am agnostic and not promoting any god, factual or faith based)

The I'll believe when I see it idiom? I see what you're saying. Perhaps I should have said continue to believe. Language is always a stumbling block it seems:eek:. Not sure if that means it's easier to make someone believe or not believe:D

I would have no reason to continue to believe in something I just found out about. My belief, for that particular instance, would end right there. It would not be unknown to me anymore. People used to believe the Earth was flat. Once the facts were presented that belief had no meaning or ceased to be a belief.

Semantics are a bitch. I did the best I could. It's like when they used to teach phonetics...the kid's grammar and spelling were terrible but the most important thing was to convey the message.
 
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The I'll believe when I see it idiom? I see what you're saying. Perhaps I should have said continue to believe. Language is always a stumbling block it seems:eek:. Not sure if that means it's easier to make someone believe or not believe:D

I would have no reason to continue to believe in something I just found out about. My belief, for that particular instance, would end right there.

sorry to butt in


are you suggesting; you are evolving? :D
 
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