A conversation with a Christian

[answers]

No I do not have an ego problem.

Do you have any more questions?

 

[786]

No I do not have an ego problem.

Do you have any more questions?

Okay

So I see that she didn't let you get the final word (by removing you as friend) as you couldn't reply..... Is the point of this thread here is so that you could get this 'final' word and get it off your chest- her actions certainly are immature, but to bring a personal discussion into the public forum without consulting with the person who you talked to is generally considered 'gossiping' - and I believe that is also immature.

Peace be unto you

 

[answers]

786

What is your evidence that gossiping is immature?

Have you read any psychological research on gossiping?

Do you know any theories about the purpose of gossip?

I do. Which makes me think that your statement that gossiping is immature is incredibly stupid.

Also have you actually read the posts on this thread before posting up your own accusatory opinions?

I'm guessing because you said I only went on here and posted because I couldn't get the final word, you haven't actually read the posts on this thread. Because one of them has a series of emails which have been sent back and forth.

So the final word was not an issue.

And please explain the link you have made between immaturity and talking about a conversation you have had with a christian to other people without first telling that christian that you are going to talk about them?

Have you ever had an incident at work, or school, or during the course of your life, and talked to someone else about that incident. According to you if you had a fight at work with your boss and then wanted to tell your friend later about it, you would have to ask your boss for permission to talk to your friend about what happened or else you would be immature.

I'm really starting to feel like I'm wasting my time talking to you 768, you haven't read all the posts on this thread, you have only demonstrated ignorance and stupidity with everything you have written.

Unless you can write something that isn't completely stupid, could you please stop posting on this thread.

Thanks.

 

[786]

786

What is your evidence that gossiping is immature?

Immature is a subjective term used by idiots to impose their superiority on supposed 'immature' people. Since its subjective, I don't really need 'evidence' to say something is immature- do you have evidence contrary?

Have you read any psychological research on gossiping?
Do you know any theories about the purpose of gossip?

I do. Which makes me think that your statement that gossiping is immature is incredibly stupid.

Oh no....... did reading that make you a genius? So you read theories about the 'purpose' of gossip- is having 'purpose' enough to make something 'mature'- even pranks have purposes but I hardly find people thinking that those are mature 'traits'.

Knowing something about gossip doesn't mean shit.
(Of course the word shit here had a purpose, but was it immature to use? Give me a break with your intellectual 'knowledge')

Also have you actually read the posts on this thread before posting up your own accusatory opinions?

No, I only read your opening post. If I was the first person to write, it would be based on that post, no?

I'm guessing because you said I only went on here and posted because I couldn't get the final word, you haven't actually read the posts on this thread. Because one of them has a series of emails which have been sent back and forth.

Great to see the communication is still going.

And please explain the link you have made between immaturity and talking about a conversation you have had with a christian to other people without first telling that christian that you are going to talk about them?

Actually it has nothing to do with talking 'with a christian'- but in general terms. This is a personal discussion between two 'supposed' friends- you don't know with what 'emotions' (if any) that girl gave you replies with... To bring them into the public forum without consent in my eyes is immature. Perhaps if she knew beforehand her replies would be much different with a different logic that appeals to everyone?

Because certainly your approach to this subject is crappy and ON TOP you say this:
"I'm still trying to process how horrible of a person this Christian is."

The purpose of posting this conversation to me seems more about degrading this person then anything.... You just wanted to share with your atheist buddies and have a laugh at it.... This is also psychology.... Feel better by making your opponent be laughed at by the world.. Richard Dawkins is an expert in this, when he is asked a question he can't answer.

Have you ever had an incident at work, or school, or during the course of your life, and talked to someone else about that incident. According to you if you had a fight at work with your boss and then wanted to tell your friend later about it, you would have to ask your boss for permission to talk to your friend about what happened or else you would be immature.

What is mature in eyes would be you and your boss sorting it out instead of you spreading your one-sided story to the rest of the world about what 'really' happened.

I'm really starting to feel like I'm wasting my time talking to you 768, you haven't read all the posts on this thread, you have only demonstrated ignorance and stupidity with everything you have written.

You've only shown that the purpose of this thread is to figure out how terrible this person is.

Unless you can write something that isn't completely stupid, could you please stop posting on this thread.

This thread itself is stupid.... I was simply trying to find out why it was created- your motives are simply to laugh at the person and you wanted to do it with your atheist buddies here.

I will now stop posting in this thread :shrug:

Thanks.

No problem.

Peace be unto you

 

[sifreak21]

Okay

So I see that she didn't let you get the final word (by removing you as friend) as you couldn't reply..... Is the point of this thread here is so that you could get this 'final' word and get it off your chest- her actions certainly are immature, but to bring a personal discussion into the public forum without consulting with the person who you talked to is generally considered 'gossiping' - and I believe that is also immature.

Peace be unto you

gossup is something you hear from a 3rd party not from someone involved in the issue, and its not immature at all ever think he wanted a 3rd opinion? or maby he wanted to vent a bit showing how mental some people are when it comes to religion. as for consulting the person he doesnt have to.. as he was part of the conversation he can share it with whomever he wants.. now if your or i were to start a post about it thats gossiping

 

[sifreak21]

Immature is a subjective term used by idiots to impose their superiority on supposed 'immature' people. Since its subjective, I don't really need 'evidence' to say something is immature- do you have evidence contrary?



Oh no....... did reading that make you a genius? So you read theories about the 'purpose' of gossip- is having 'purpose' enough to make something 'mature'- even pranks have purposes but I hardly find people thinking that those are mature 'traits'.

Knowing something about gossip doesn't mean shit.
(Of course the word shit here had a purpose, but was it immature to use? Give me a break with your intellectual 'knowledge')



No, I only read your opening post. If I was the first person to write, it would be based on that post, no?



Great to see the communication is still going.



Actually it has nothing to do with talking 'with a christian'- but in general terms. This is a personal discussion between two 'supposed' friends- you don't know with what 'emotions' (if any) that girl gave you replies with... To bring them into the public forum without consent in my eyes is immature. Perhaps if she knew beforehand her replies would be much different with a different logic that appeals to everyone?

Because certainly your approach to this subject is crappy and ON TOP you say this:
"I'm still trying to process how horrible of a person this Christian is."

The purpose of posting this conversation to me seems more about degrading this person then anything.... You just wanted to share with your atheist buddies and have a laugh at it.... This is also psychology.... Feel better by making your opponent be laughed at by the world.. Richard Dawkins is an expert in this, when he is asked a question he can't answer.



What is mature in eyes would be you and your boss sorting it out instead of you spreading your one-sided story to the rest of the world about what 'really' happened.



You've only shown that the purpose of this thread is to figure out how terrible this person is.



This thread itself is stupid.... I was simply trying to find out why it was created- your motives are simply to laugh at the person and you wanted to do it with your atheist buddies here.

I will now stop posting in this thread :shrug:



No problem.

Peace be unto you

if the thread is so stupid why post? cuz most people agree with him? that some religous people are mental? you obviously take offense to it attacking his beliefs so whos acting childish here? i can go down to that level too your god is stupid and its complete idiocracy that you believe in something there is no evidence of what so ever so go and pray to your invisible, non exsistant friend.. i dont post things like that because a persons belief is ther belief and to be honest religous people are the ones with the problems tryign to convert people or saying people are wrong in what the beleive in then you end

pease be unto you :shrug:

 

[786]

gossup is something you hear from a 3rd party not from someone involved in the issue, and its not immature at all ever think he wanted a 3rd opinion? or maby he wanted to vent a bit showing how mental some people are when it comes to religion. as for consulting the person he doesnt have to.. as he was part of the conversation he can share it with whomever he wants.. now if your or i were to start a post about it thats gossiping

Having a third opinion from someone qualified is okay... but bringing it into the public forum begs a question if that is actually the purpose.

You are right that 'gossip' is spreading facts/rumors about other people's affair. But having been in a discussion he is spreading the discussion of 'someone' else not only his to the whole public. This is simply a variation of gossip. This thread has nothing to do with 3rd person opinion. Bringing anything like this to public forum only results in mockery if anything.

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

if the thread is so stupid why post? cuz most people agree with him?

Well you have to give benefit of doubt at first? That is why I simply asked him questions. But I don't find it as coincidence that most people (i.e atheists) agree with a stupid thread... I find a correlation between stupidity and atheists.

you obviously take offense to it attacking his beliefs so whos acting childish here?

What belief of his did I attack?

i can go down to that level too your god is stupid and its complete idiocracy that you believe in something there is no evidence of what so ever so go and pray to your invisible, non exsistant friend.. i dont post things like that because a persons belief is ther belief and to be honest religous people are the ones with the problems tryign to convert people or saying people are wrong in what the beleive in then you end

Now that you spewed this crap please tell me which belief of his did I attack?

Peace be unto you

 

[sifreak21]

sorry i should have said attacked his person in this line here

"your motives are simply to laugh at the person and you wanted to do it with your atheist buddies here"

present this as if you knew the reason and then added your "atheist buddies" is an attack on the belief ,, like if i said you just posted this so you and your christian buddies can laugh at it"

my mistake on the wording

 

[786]

sorry i should have said attacked his person in this line here

"your motives are simply to laugh at the person and you wanted to do it with your atheist buddies here"

That is why I began with a question to him.... but he simply doesn't answer.

present this as if you knew the reason and then added your "atheist buddies" is an attack on the belief ,, like if i said you just posted this so you and your christian buddies can laugh at it"

Is this a desperate attempt to save yourself from looking like a fool? Adding 'atheist buddies' has nothing to do with 'attacking belief' but more so about peer-social interaction. You feel more comfortable with a group of your friends then others. Its hardly any attempt to attack atheism.

my mistake on the wording

Your mistake was posting.

Peace be unto you

 

[answers]

768

I felt genuinely hurt by what this christian person said. When someone tells you the only reason they have been 'friends' with you is to convert you, and that they think you are worthless, you question yourself.

I was questioning myself. I wanted other peoples' opinions on whether or not I deserved to be called worthless.

I was upset by what this christian person had said, and I thought that a lot of the people that post here may have similar experiences as I have had and they could empathise with me

So I was looking for support from some fellow athiests.

You instead come on here and call me sexist, immature, etc.. etc... just attacking me over and over again, with little to no basis for anything you say.

I hope you take the time to read this whole thread, and think back on the sort of person you are projecting yourself as.

You have been nothing but hostile toward me, trying to bully me and put me down.

If that's what your religion causes you to do to someone who just wanted to hear that they weren't worthless, then maybe you need to rethink some things.

I'm not a weak person, but I think what this christian girl said was really horrible, and a low blow. I genuinely cared about this girl as a friend, and spent many many hours talking to her when she was having a hard time with her last relationship. I thought that would count for something to her, but instead she saw me as a worthless athiest who's only value was the potential of conversion.

For someone who says peace be upon you, you are incredibly hostile and anything but peaceful, I really hope you realize this and change your behaviour.

 

[scifes]

Okay so this is a converstation I had over facebook with a person that I used to go to church with, but since then I've seen the light and embraced agnosticism.

well thanks for sharing, really nice material discussed, but first, the main issue:

yeah that's what pissed me off, that she actually pretended to be friends so she could try and convert me...like honestly who does that?

friends do that.

if you believed hell exists, and non christainswill get tortured there for ever after death, and you had a friend who wasn't a christian, and you really really really cared for that friend, what's the first thing you'd do?
if you came across an atheist who you don't give a damn about, would you care enough to preach them?

2-weren't you preaching HER????
and doing it so fricking good she couldn't wait to correct the mistakes se had in the last message to send it and get rid of you?
your questions and theories put her in serious doubt..her, a devout christian, from one who she was trying to save, who is now pulling HER into hellfire with him, who wouldn't listen to what's good for him and is trying to doom those who care for him, makes sense to run away when faced with hard questions..

also did you see the way she reassured herself that "i don't worship my version of god"?? you got into her man, you screwed her up from the inside out..also mentioning studying psychology and the bible..wooo..you evil mastermind..

I may not have all the facts...but it's coz i KNOW what i believe and i don't believe God expected us to be rocket scientists to figure it out!..and you say "well you should know the facts?" well you yourself just said to me "why do i need to know where i come from"...i do...but i dont think i have to know everything about everything...
............
............
.............
Me:
You need to know the facts that back up your belief.
I need to know the facts that back up my belief. However my belief does not require me to know where I come from. That is the core of being agnostic, not knowing. If I claimed I knew something, I would have to show how I knew it. I do not claim this, so I do not need to show this. You however claim this and need to show it.

no you don't.
it's as simple as that.
not being able to show and prove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

if a kid can't prove hydrogen has one electron then it doesn't?

in book that tells you not to?

I know you think that without God everyone is evil. But there is nothing that proves this. A person's desire to do good or evil is determined by their genetics and their environment. This has been shown many times in psychological research. A persons' nature is not determined by a mystical being in another dimension.

with all due respect, this is bull..

What it all boils down to for me. Is that Christianity is a hypothesis answering the question of why are we here? It says we are here because God is so loving that he wasn't happy with what he had and needed to show that love to others. However these others rebelled against him and so he showed more love by killing himself. But not really himself but a man version of himself, that was only part of himself but that was actually not just part of himself but actually his whole self so he died but didn't die because it was only part of himself but died fully because it wasn't just part of himself and then he was raised from the dead therefore paying for all the rebellion that the people had done and now all we have to do is believe that part of God died for us and rose again, while believing that all of God died and rose again, and has forgiven us, in order to take part in salvation. And salvation is in another dimension called heaven. Where there is the son the father and the holy spirit who are all seperate gods but who are all the one god, and we get to spend all the rest of eternity in the presence of these gods/god and that's our reward for believing that god died.

i cracked up when reading this:roflmao:


and uh, i think the agnostic hypothisis should jump back a few step and start over..

The agnostic hypothesis states that: we haven't seen a god, we haven't talked to a god, we don't know if he actually exists, but we know there's a world, so something must have caused it, it's probably something that happened in this dimension that obeys the laws of this dimension because all we have ever seen is this dimension and things that obey the laws of this dimension, so it's too much of a stretch to say something in another dimension caused it. And in this dimension we see things like big bangs and evolution as being possible so that's probably the cause of creation rather than something that isn't based on any observable evidence.

how can you call yourself an agnostic when you've already decided what i underlined??
you're a full-fledged atheist bro..

Anyway I believe Jesus and his followers were mentally ill.

because they saw, talked to, and believed in god?
hoola hoop reasoning..

I've seen schizophrenics in real life claim the same sorts of things as Jesus and believe totally that they were true.

did they raise the dead?
talk as babies?
then you ask for the facts it's all based upon?
and mess your poor friends' brain?: D

I use parsimonious logic when deciding what I believe. Which means believing the simplest and most logical explanation.

So if I go to the fridge and find an apple in it, I do not believe that the apple came from another dimension through a worm hole created by aliens. I will jump to the simplest and most logical explanation, that my girlfriend must have gone to the shop and bought apples and left them in my fridge.

and that's what your friend meant when she said "see god all around you"..
all the equilibrium constants in the world, all the ones which only a little, what does it say?

bang a women and get the most advanced and complex "device" n the world, whithout any of you knowing anything or intervening with it, what does it say?
the skies, the mountines, all the pretty living beings, our suitible surroundings...

for most people;
my girl friend bought the apple = god did it.

However simple logical thought does not always dominate. In ignorance superstition plays its part. As can be seen in many behavioural experiments with animals. Birds for example were given food randomly. After a few days the birds started behaving oddly. One would peck at the corner of the cage, another would spin in circles, another would fly backwards and forwards. Why? Because the birds thought that these actions were what was giving them the food. They though 'hey I was spinning when I got food, so I'll spin again'. Of course it's all just random.

if you had no girlfriend, and the apple still apears in your fridge still, what would you think?
and loooooooool.....isn't spinning around and batting your wings the equivilant to scientists' evolution theory to where the "food" came from? as opposed to "god did it"?
what happenned to your simple reasoning?

It's much like christian belief. They believe and something happens, for example they pray and get the job they prayed for. So now they believe in prayer. Except this new belief is not falsifiable, meaning it can't be proved wrong. Because when they next pray and don't get something they want, there is an explantion, that they didn't pray with enough faith or what they were praying for wasn't in their best interest. But as long as the random rewards from time to time remain, their belief will also. In this random rewarding environment extinction of a belief is impossible.

they live longer.
they live happier.
their beliefe ranges from time to time, and they notice the difference, the same difference.

And like you said, the God you know isn't a God you can know from reading in books. Which is the real hook with Christianity. Because for each Christian God is tailor made to their own values. You have some christians who know God as a judge who hates homosexuals, and coincidentally they themselves hate homosexuals. You have other Christians who know God as all loving, and coincidentally they value love. You have other Christians who know God as a 'cool dude', and coincidentally they themselves value being 'cool dudes'.

is that true about christianity? what god wants and doesn't want isn't known?

When there is no actual God you can make him or her whatever you want to. That's why people feel such a connection with God. Because they can have an intense relationship with him. Relationships are a means of relating to another. When you see that you have things in common with someone you say to yourself 'I can relate to this person, I want a relationship with this person'. By tailor making God to suit yourself, you can relate to him extremely well. You can have a deep and strong relationship because you have so much in common with your values etc...


Now if God was a prick, who randomly killed little children for fun, then you would not be able to relate to him and would probably not believe in him, because this god is not 'your' god.

So you don't worship god at all, you only worship your own personal idea of god.

That's the result of just knowing god, rather than actually reading the books and believing in the actual god, instead of your own personal interpretation. But the problem is the books leave so much up to personal interpretation for this very reason. If the bible actually taught everything straight forward, then there wouldn't be hundreds of different denominations of churches.

so is this all just for christianity? what about other religions?

Also you don't see God in everything. You don't see a rape victim and see the power of God in that. You choose where you want to see God and where you don't want to see god. Once again creating your own personal view of God because you can just pick and choose what you want to believe and attribute to him.

you don't see god in everything because god is not in everything, then we would all be automotons..where god is not, free will given to humans by god is.

Right now your religious beliefs are fulfilling your needs. That's why you aren't going to study the Bible at bible college. Or read books like the God delusion. Or study religion or philosophy at uni. Because right now you don't want to know anything more, because you are happy knowing God the way you know him right now. Truth therefore takes a back seat to having your needs met.

which is one of my most important philosophies in life..
what good is truth if it doesn't one way or another make your life more comfortable?

 

[786]

768

I felt genuinely hurt by what this christian person said. When someone tells you the only reason they have been 'friends' with you is to convert you, and that they think you are worthless, you question yourself.

Yes that is cold...

I was questioning myself. I wanted other peoples' opinions on whether or not I deserved to be called worthless.

Here is where I have a problem with you.... you are asking other people's opinions to determine if you are WORTHLESS...... this is a depressing state of events.... Who in their right minds asks for opinions of other people for something like this. You need to set your own goals, worth, purpose in life- asking others for your worth is ridiculous and actually makes me worry that you may turn suicidal. Get some help from professionals, not idiots on this board.

I was upset by what this christian person had said, and I thought that a lot of the people that post here may have similar experiences as I have had and they could empathise with me

Or laugh at her? You could left out the whole discussion and only talked about being called worthless, and discuss it with your friends so they can console you.

So I was looking for support from some fellow athiests.

I thought so

You instead come on here and call me sexist, immature, etc.. etc... just attacking me over and over again, with little to no basis for anything you say.

Actually I didn't call you anything... The way you wrote your responses led me to question your motive... and I only questioned you. I never said you were a sexist.

I hope you take the time to read this whole thread, and think back on the sort of person you are projecting yourself as.

Yes I know I am projecting myself as a heartless fiend. But my 'hostility' is only in terms of questions.... but now you have basically admitted to my accusation that you just wanted to be with you 'friends' to discuss this. Use PM for that- bringing it into the open forum led me to question this whole thing.

You have been nothing but hostile toward me, trying to bully me and put me down.

If you create a questionable thread, I was only questioning you... sure it seemed 'hostile' but the way you presented it I was only questioning that.

If that's what your religion causes you to do to someone who just wanted to hear that they weren't worthless, then maybe you need to rethink some things.

This has nothing to do with my religion. Actually I would say this was more of a 'scientific' logical method of deduction. If you want to blame science be my guest.

My religion is 100% against gossip... and this is what I saw in this thread... If all you wanted to hear was that you weren't worthless you had many more options then to simply post it in the open forum and then have everyone laugh at that girl.... Does having others say that the girl is stupid make you feel having more 'worth'- that is sickening.

For someone who says peace be upon you, you are incredibly hostile and anything but peaceful, I really hope you realize this and change your behaviour.

Peace and criticism can both happen at the same time.. I was only criticizing this thread... the reason it seems hostile is because the way you wrote your responses the only logical questions I could come up with were if you had ego problems or you were a sexist.... If you had chosen better words to portray your message I might not have come to those as a basis of questioning you.... But again you already have now admitted that you wanted to be with your 'friends'..

If you think that you will be 'worth' something when someone else tells you.... You really do have some problem and need professional help.

Peace be unto you

 

[jpappl]

Pretty much like the random thought of the Christian girl who thought all atheists should be saved. Irreconcilable differences. Except, she wanted to save you from what she believes is a fate worse than death and you want people to call her insane.

Between the two of you, her goals seem more altruistic. Yours are entirely self involved.

No hers are self serving. First of all, she only was willing to talk to him as long as she felt there was an opportunity to get him to convert. Once it was clear that wasn't going to happen, she moved on.

Secondly, the only reason christians try and convert others is to make their own belief stronger. I don't buy the spread the message bs. The proof of that is she moved on instead of accepting him and continue to try the conversion.

She moved on because there will be no support for her delusions.

 

[(Q)]

I think it's a really interesting conversation. It ends with my old 'friend' telling me basically the only reason they stayed in touch with me was to convert me, and now they don't care what I do so they are no longer my 'friend'.

I was a bit shocked by it all. Feels like they lied to me in order to try and convert me back to Christianity. I'm going to have trouble trusting a Christian on any level after that.



i dontrlly wantto talk to you anymore

as i said...nohin in common.

later
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

And with that I was removed from her facebook so that I couldn't reply.

Seems very immature of her.

Anyway I'd really like to hear what you guys have to say about this.

She's insane. Simple, really. And, it is her Christian ideology that has once again demonstrated to propagate hatred, bigotry and lies. Religions will always divide mankind, forever. That's why they need to be eradicated if we are to survive as a species.

 

[jpappl]

786,

If you think that you will be 'worth' something when someone else tells you.... You really do have some problem and need professional help.

Agreed. You don't need others to give you worth. I have had friend for various reasons say that I am not who they thought I was and because of this or that didn't want to be friends.

Too bad, I am a good person and they lost a good friend. I have had a few that I met later and they apologised for being so critical and judgemental. They just had some growing to do, maybe thats the case here.

 

[answers]

Everybody needs support. No one is an island.

There are many many experiments that show just how much man is a social creature, needing support from others. (If interested start with learning about the Asch line judging experiment and go from there.)

Your suggestion to the contrary shows just how much you don't know about man.

A person does not need to be suicidal to talk to others about their problems. I really hope you are smart enough not to really believe what you said to the contrary 786

Also gossip is a form of social bonding. Great apes groom each other as a form of social bonding. Humans gossip as much as great apes groom. Not saying this is the exact same manifestation of the psychological phenomena but some researchers suggest this.

Gossip is one of the major ways people share and interact within relationships.

"If people aren't talking about other people, it's a signal that something is wrong--that we feel socially alienated or indifferent," says Ralph Rosnow, Ph.D., a professor of psychology at Temple University and coauthor of Rumor and Gossip: The Social Psychology of Hearsay.

"For a real understanding of our social environment, gossip is essential," agrees Jack Levin, Ph.D., professor of sociology and criminology at Boston's Northeastern University and coauthor of Gossip: The Inside Scoop. "Its primary function is to help us make social comparisons. For example, if we read bad news about celebrities in the tabloids, or get into the gruesome details of our neighbor's misery over a cup of coffee, our own problems begin to pale in comparison."

Source: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199607/the-real-slant-gossip

 

[786]

Everybody needs support. No one is an island.

Are you trying to tell me that you don't know anybody in real-life and so had to use this public forum to find 'support'

Secondly what I meant by gossip is more in the line of talking something personal or bad or rumor about someone.....

Peace be unto you

 

[shichimenshyo]

Are you trying to tell me that you don't know anybody in real-life and so had to use this public forum to find 'support'

Secondly what I meant by gossip is more in the line of talking something personal or bad or rumor about someone.....

Peace be unto you

How does one talking something bad?:shrug:

Are you suggesting its bad to use a discussion forum...as a forum...to discuss?

 

[786]

How does one talking something bad?:shrug:

Are you suggesting its bad to use a discussion forum...as a forum...to discuss?

I left out the commas...

Also I am not suggesting that it is 'bad' to use a discussion forum.... but his purpose of finding support could have easily been done with 'real' people than a public forum.. I've already explained my reasoning before.

Peace be unto you