A conversation with a Christian

[kurros]

How can you "respect someone as a person" if you don't respect their beliefs?

Unless of course you think that a person's beliefs are random or predestined and they had no choice in them whatsoever.

It's not that hard, don't you have any friends who do stupid things you don't respect? For instance I have a couple of friends who cheated on their girlfriends, something I don't respect at all and certainly don't approve of, yet I can still be friends with them because there is more to them as people than that. Likewise people are more than their beliefs, just because someone believes something stupid doesn't make them a person you can't be friends with.
To be more concrete, I think it is kind of nuts to believe in a God/gods, yet I still have friends who are christians. Sometimes you meet people and befriend them without ever knowing their religious beliefs.
So while I don't necessarily respect some peoples beliefs I still have respect for them as people and so refrain from being derogatory about it.

 

[wynn]

It's not that hard, don't you have any friends who do stupid things you don't respect? For instance I have a couple of friends who cheated on their girlfriends, something I don't respect at all and certainly don't approve of, yet I can still be friends with them because there is more to them as people than that. Likewise people are more than their beliefs, just because someone believes something stupid doesn't make them a person you can't be friends with.
To be more concrete, I think it is kind of nuts to believe in a God/gods, yet I still have friends who are christians. Sometimes you meet people and befriend them without ever knowing their religious beliefs.
So while I don't necessarily respect some peoples beliefs I still have respect for them as people and so refrain from being derogatory about it.

I think you don't value friendship very highly, nor people ...

:shrug:

 

[kurros]

I think you don't value friendship very highly, nor people ...

:shrug:

I'm sorry you think that, and I am sorry for you as well. If you can't be friends with people in situations I described above you chop out a pretty huge portion of the population from the pool of people you can find friends among. This means you will never experience the rich diversity of experience and knowledge that can be found amongst them.

It seems to me more like YOU don't value friendship very highly, if you are so ready to dismiss it over what you may perceive as a flaw in somebody. In addition if your only friends are people who think and act exactly like you do then you are just building an isolationist little culture around yourself which must undoubtedly distort your view of the world and the people in it.

 

[answers]

I never said I thought people who believed in religion were mentally ill. My other post was just a random thought, of 'what if - society actually started to view religious people that way'.

Also we started off as friends when we were both Christians. She was the friend of my ex girlfriend (who was a christian and the only girlfriend I've ever had that actually cheated on me... good old righteous christians). Anyway we broke up but the girl was having her own dramas with her relationship, so I would talk to both her boyfriend and the girl about their dramas and counsel them through it and give them support. The girl gave me support as well when her friend cheated on me.

So that was the basis for our friendship. Then she comes along and says, since I left the church the only reason she stayed friends with me was to convert me and that I'm a worthless person and I'll see that on judgement day.

So I felt pretty betrayed. I really tried to help this girl when she needed support in her relationship, and I really tried to be there for this girl, just as a friend. And yet to her that counted for nothing, all that matters is whether or not I convert.

To me that's screwed up.

 

[James R]

People generally don't like having their deepest beliefs challenged, and it's even worse if those beliefs aren't held for rational reasons but for emotional or other reasons. If somebody hasn't really tried to find a rational basis for their beliefs, they can find it confronting and disheartening that they don't have a reasoned reply to many rational arguments. There's a fine line between that and becoming angry at the person who has challenged you.

It sounds like you're right about this girl. She isn't at a place where she wants to even look for justifications for her beliefs. She is comfortable with just believing, and she doesn't want to be hassled.

In time, she may come around - either by finding some reasonable justifications for her beliefs, or by changing her beliefs. In the meantime, all you can do is give her space. She may never change, though.

 

[S.A.M.]

I never said I thought people who believed in religion were mentally ill. My other post was just a random thought, of 'what if - society actually started to view religious people that way'.
.

Pretty much like the random thought of the Christian girl who thought all atheists should be saved. Irreconcilable differences. Except, she wanted to save you from what she believes is a fate worse than death and you want people to call her insane.

Between the two of you, her goals seem more altruistic. Yours are entirely self involved.

 

[kurros]

People generally don't like having their deepest beliefs challenged, and it's even worse if those beliefs aren't held for rational reasons but for emotional or other reasons. If somebody hasn't really tried to find a rational basis for their beliefs, they can find it confronting and disheartening that they don't have a reasoned reply to many rational arguments. There's a fine line between that and becoming angry at the person who has challenged you.

It sounds like you're right about this girl. She isn't at a place where she wants to even look for justifications for her beliefs. She is comfortable with just believing, and she doesn't want to be hassled.

In time, she may come around - either by finding some reasonable justifications for her beliefs, or by changing her beliefs. In the meantime, all you can do is give her space. She may never change, though.

Perhaps you are right, this friendship between people of different religions requires people with decent emotional maturity. Perhaps that is what is lacking here.

 

[answers]

No I don't want her to be called insane.

The only reason why I even argued with her about these things is because she challenged me and I'm not going to back down from a challenge.

 

[answers]

Anyway I emailed this Christian girl a couple days ago to try and end things on a better note. This is what I wrote, what follows are her responses.
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I know your not a horrible person Beth. I know at your core you're a very loving person.

So despite the horrible and hurtful things you have said to me, I just wanted to let you know that I still think you are a very good person and I forgive you for what you said.

I genuinely enjoyed talking to you randomly on facebook, even if it was just to pass the time. When you had relationship troubles I was always prepared to listen and talk you through it because I cared. I spent a lot of time trying to help you. And I appreciated the support you gave me with the breakup with Nikki.

I really honour you for the love you have for people and I'm kind of sad that things ended the way they did, and that you believe I am completely worthless and not worth caring about.

But I agree with you, it is best that we no longer talk.

However, if you are really in need of some emotional support down the track, and you have cooled down, feel free to email me. I'm not going to write you off as a friend because of a disagreement about religion.

Anyway all the best Beth.

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i'm sorry. i didnt have any right speaking like that to you. I really do hope you havea great life...

sorry again.

b
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I'm sorry Tim, i guess you're the first person i've dealt with who i have not been able to convince haha. I'm sorry.
The wedding was amazing Just what you'd expect from Tom and Bec it was worth it
Have a good day. B.
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[answers]

And Sam don't try and paint a picture of me as the big evil hate-filled athiest trying to selfishly rip this persons' faith from them.

It was a consensual debate. Just because she believed that what she was doing was going to save me from eternal damnation doesn't mean she is any more correct or better in any way. If I believed by convincing her, that there is no God, that she would never die and would win a million dollars and get her own pet unicorn, does that mean that I'm a better person for holding my own view?

Like really? Just because I hold a different view and I defended it, doesn't mean I'm a bad person. I volunteer as a telephone counselor, helping people who are depressed and want to commit suicide. I'm also studying to become a relationship counselor because I really want to help those couples in need. And one day I'll be qualified to deal with psychopathology as a clinical psychologist, helping a lot of people that have got it rough.

I'm not a bad guy just because I don't believe everyone I convince of my point of view will go to heaven.

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't think you're evil, just representative of most atheists I have seen here. There is a thread on psychiatric treatment of theists that may interest you.

The general consensus in atheistic discussions on religion seems to leave them with few choices between mental illness and dishonesty. Apparently theists fall either in one camp or the other.

 

[answers]

Nah I don't believe that. I think thiests are just fulfilling their human needs in one of the best ways available.

When you have all your needs fulfilled by something, it is rare that someone will question that thing.

 

[spidergoat]

Nah I don't believe that. I think thiests are just fulfilling their human needs in one of the best ways available.

When you have all your needs fulfilled by something, it is rare that someone will question that thing.

Because learning about the world intellectually, as it really is, is difficult. It's much easier to be handed an easy to understand custom made narrative about the world that puts you at the center of the whole enterprise. It's good for the ego, but it can also make you arrogant.

 

[Arch_Rival]

Threadstarter committed the mistake of trying to reason with a disturbed christian fundie. Don't do that. As far as these people are concerned, religion is not based on reason.

 

[786]

yeah that's what pissed me off, that she actually pretended to be friends so she could try and convert me...like honestly who does that?

Actually that is still a very 'caring' option.... if you only thought about it.

So you're an agnostic.... and everything about you is 'not knowing'- that is just too depressing in my opinion.

Peace be unto you

 

[786]

The only reason why I even argued with her about these things is because she challenged me and I'm not going to back down from a challenge.

Oooooooooo--- why are you sexist? Or do you have ego problems?

Peace be unto you

 

[answers]

Because I defended my beliefs I'm obviously a sexist with low self esteem.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I never even thought about the gender of this person being any reason to debate with them. You did!

That must mean that you're the sexist.

If being friends with someone in order to convert them is caring, is killing someone in the name of your god in order to convert others through fear also caring? Better for one to die so others may be saved, that's a Christian sentiment too isn't it?

Peace be unto you too.

 

[786]

Because I defended my beliefs I'm obviously a sexist with low self esteem.

Thanks for pointing that out.

That is not what I pointed out... re-read what you had said (which I quoted) and what it means. Or at least you could have stated in a more 'humble' manner but you wanted to seem 'manly' by not refusing a 'challenge'.... Basically now I've listed out the 'point' I was trying to make so you can understand it.

I never even thought about the gender of this person being any reason to debate with them. You did!

That must mean that you're the sexist.

No, it just means I'm more conscious about 'words' and problems that exist in society and was wondering if you were a victim of this problem; hence my question to you (not a statement as you presumed).

If being friends with someone in order to convert them is caring, is killing someone in the name of your god in order to convert others through fear also caring? Better for one to die so others may be saved, that's a Christian sentiment too isn't it?

Well you would have to ask caring for who? If for 'humanity' then yes, but for you no (as you would be dead)... but clearly this example doesn't apply to your situation, so stop making situations up and only think about what your situation is to assess 'caring'... We can all make up examples.:shrug:

Peace be unto you too.

Peace be unto you

 

[answers]

So not backing down from a challenge is manly? I know lots of women who won't back down from a challenge. My girlfriend is one of those people.

I think it's very sexist of you to say that standing up to a challenge is a trait of a man.

 

[786]

So not backing down from a challenge is manly? I know lots of women who won't back down from a challenge. My girlfriend is one of those people.

I think it's very sexist of you to say that standing up to a challenge is a trait of a man.

Certainly not, I was simply asking you a question.... Conventional word usage is as such for example 'be a man'- I certainly didn't make up the expression, I was asking you a question..... So then you have an ego problem? (my second question right?)

Peace be unto you