98% of Catholic Women us Contraception

YoYoPapaya said:
that wasnt my question was it?
what does the bible say?
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At conception the DNA is unique, not only to the human species but to that individual human being. That "bunch of cells" is a "bunch of human cells."

Biblical proof? Why? Even Paul says that the truth is so obvious that it is written on the face of the created universe:

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they [the barbarians] are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. . . . Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.

Follow me here. Not only does Paul say that what is known about God is "plain to all" but that in the sins of impurity, the pagan Romans have taken leave of their senses, because knowing God "as God" results in worshiping him "as God" and "honoring their bodies" -- not substituting our bodies as objects of worship in place of God. By "understanding" God through "the things that have been made" we treat those things according to right reason.

Therefore, Scripture directs us to right reason in order to discern the truth about human nature. The conceptus of two human beings is not a hedgehog. If it were, we could use hedgehog fetal stem cells instead of cells from aborti in research. Right?
 
The bible doesnt say that it's considered life at conception does it?
I want you to tell me what the bible says about it. There must be something in there since all the fundies think it's proper behavior to terrorise young girls at abortion clinics.

When i asked you what the bible said about abortion you were quick to post "you shall not kill" and that other thing, but when i ask you when the bible consideres it human life, you try to avoid.
 
YoYoPapaya said:
The bible doesnt say that it's considered life at conception does it?
I want you to tell me what the bible says about it. There must be something in there since all the fundies think it's proper behavior to terrorise young girls at abortion clinics.

When i asked you what the bible said about abortion you were quick to post "you shall not kill" and that other thing, but when i ask you when the bible consideres it human life, you try to avoid.
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One of the most obvious verses is:

Jeremaih 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Now, modernists will wiggle their way around this by saying it applied only to Jeremiah. I ask: How can one believe in an omnipotent, omniscient God who does not know us even before He creates us?
 
Mind Over Matter said:
I invite everyone to read the following article which I think is the best explanation of why contraception has become widespread and the Church's position.
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Do you and your wife, as Catholics, use contraception?
Or do you engage in sex only if you wish to conceive a child?
 
Do you plan to ever stop having sex?
Or do you rely on "nature" to prevent you from it (in the form of disease or old age)?
 
Signal said:
Do you plan to ever stop having sex?
Or do you rely on "nature" to prevent you from it (in the form of disease or old age)?
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Sex is the ultimate expression of love. just dont have to be able to have a baby. u have sex to fully express what u feel for ur wife/husband.

if by nature's way/God's grace upon doing so, a baby was created, that is by far the most beautiful bonus one gets out from doing it but then, it doesnt mean that since one can never have a baby, one should stop sex.

that is laughablebesides, it all boils down on the reason u got married if my reason of getting married is simply to see what would my offspring be like i rather not marry at all.
 
You didn't answer my question.

If your wife would become pregnant at age 52 or even later - would you keep the baby or would you have an abortion?
 
Signal said:
You didn't answer my question.

If your wife would become pregnant at age 52 or even later - would you keep the baby or would you have an abortion?
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I would keep the baby. :)

It depends. If giving birth can be dangerous for my wife, we rather not make a baby. If the body is weak at that stage, the pregnancy will most likely end up as a miscarriage. why abort?.
 
Signal said:
So you would be willing to consider her bodily state over your "ultimate expression of love"?
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GEEZ, who would want to be pregnant at the age of 52, and whose husband in his right mind would compromise the life of his beloved wife just to have a kid?
 
JuNie said:
A Guttmacher Institute study found that 98% of Catholic women use birth control despite what the rules of their church.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCJ-h7ZaAGg&feature=feedu

Interesting fact that most Catholic Women don't believe the crap their Religion says they're supposed to believe.

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/prabort2.html

Abortion common among women regardless of religious or political affiliation. Even in groups thought to oppose abortion.

I've always had a feeling that Republicans and these religious folks had abortions, now the study confirms it. So, all these groups screaming about abortion and they use it just as much as people that are Pro-Choice. Ha!

I'm wondering what you religious folks think about this hypocrisy? Often the Liberal or Democrat is blamed for being Pro-Choice and killing babies when the other side was doing it all along.
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are you really surprised? i'm not. it makes perfect sense. the more they squawk about their exemplary morality, the more reason they have to drag their 16 year old pregnant teenage daughter to the clinic before anyone finds out.

and besides, isn't that the whole point of catholicism? to take direction from the pope instead of god? to be accountable to some politically motivated man, or an institution of men, instead of to god? how seriously are you supposed to take it, when you're accountable to a bunch of ineffectual, archaic, liars and pedophiles?

i have never ever understood how it is that people who understand even the mere basics of the bible...bible 101...could buy into catholicism. it's so overwhelmingly obvious that these men, and this institution attempts to put itself in christ's place.

the fruits of this deception are obvious as well. and you know, i don't really think it's deception as much as the result of people who are looking to buy in to the lie, because it is i'm sure much easier to have a relationship with this institution, than it is to have a relationship with god; god isn't an institution of fucked up humans.

here's some scripture for catholics (and some other religious people) to chew on...

Matthew 7

Judging Others

1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Ask, Seek, Knock

7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
True and False Prophets

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
True and False Disciples

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
28 When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
 
JuNie said:
A Guttmacher Institute study
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The 'Guttmacher Institute'? Never heard of it. A "study"? I'm skeptical right out of the gate. Turns out that the Guttmacher Institute is some kind of reproductive rights advocacy organization. Activists often label their groups 'Institute' and refer to their press releases as 'studies', hoping to give their political rhetoric the social prestige of science.

found that 98% of Catholic women use birth control despite what the rules of their church.
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I don't think that 98% of Catholic women are even sexually active.

I do think that it's accurate that a solid majority of American Catholics ignore their church when it comes to birth control, but I don't believe the 98% number.
 
Mind Over Matter said:
One of the most obvious verses is:

Jeremaih 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Now, modernists will wiggle their way around this by saying it applied only to Jeremiah. I ask: How can one believe in an omnipotent, omniscient God who does not know us even before He creates us?
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Meaning knowing his soul. But when is the soul "put into" the child?
 
http://everything2.com/title/Quickening

A pregnant mother's sensation that a child in her womb has moved of its own volition is called "quickening". About 40 weeks typically separate conception and birth, and 24 weeks separate conception and "quickening". The quickening of a child has long provided a basis for moral and legal distinctions concerning abortion, and I would argue is the implicit basis for the "trimester" framework of United States' constitutional law as expressed in Roe v. Wade.
The Bible

Pro-Lifers assert that "The Bible teaches us that life begins at conception." In fact, the Bible teaches no such thing. Rather, the Holy Scriptures acknowledge that life begins before birth. God knows us in the womb. See Psalm 139:13-15; Jeremiah 1:5. Before birth, we may even feel and express joy at the presence of God. John the Baptist met Jesus before either of the men were born, when John's mother Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant. Luke 1:39:

And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; and entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

The notion that abortion prior to "quickening" is murder cannot be supported by the Bible. To the contrary, the Bible recommends administering an abortifacient to a wife if her husband suspects her of being unfaithful. Numbers 5:11-29. A priest would administer the abortifacient ("water of bitterness", Num. 5-17-18) and if the woman has in fact been unfaithful, the water would "make your uterus drop, your womb discharge". Num. 5-21,22, and 27.

A distinction between punishments for accidently inducing an abortion (paying a fine) and killing a human being (being put to death) was reflected in the earliest known legal codes, including the Code of Hammurabi. Similarly, the law of Moses could distinguish between aborting a fetus and injuring a human being:

21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. Exodus 21:22-25.

Of course, the God of Israel was not a "pro-Life" god: God could sometimes call for the death of innocent children and even the unborn. God's judgment of the people of Samaria was that they will "fall by the sword, their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open". Hosea 13:15-16. Dozens of similar passages can be quoted; the Holy Scriptures were not written to provide a simple and vapidly consistent set of arguments for contentious people to debate with one another.

At some point, the ancient Israelites rejected the practice of human sacrifice, and in particular, child sacrifice. The story of God's command to Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac (Genesis 22), and God's subsequent order to spare Isaac, may reflect a break with archaic religious practices. Such practice lingered, however, in the historical period recorded in the Bible. The great king Solomon is said to have erected a temple to Moloch:

Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon. I Kings 11:7

The name "Moloch" or "Molech" was used to describe a god who required the sacrifice of children by burning them in a bronze idol. While the priests of Yahweh opposed the practice ("And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD". Leviticus 18:21) it apparently continued through the time of Jeremiah. See 2 Kings 23:10.

Likewise, the early Christians found themselves in conflict with the prevailing Hellenic views regarding contraception and abortion. As the story of Oedipus indicates, infanticide was an integral part of Hellenic culture. Early Christians vigorously opposed infanticide and also contended that an unborn (late term) child was human and to kill it would be murder. Where precisely human "life" begins, however, has been the subject of some development over time. The notion that life begins at conception is relatively new.
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excuse me but, you misquoted that scripture...

"I knew you BEFORE I formed you in your mother’s womb". Jeremiah 1:5
 
Mind Over Matter said:
GEEZ, who would want to be pregnant at the age of 52, and whose husband in his right mind would compromise the life of his beloved wife just to have a kid?
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"Sex is the ultimate expression of love." - or isn't it? If you don't have sex with your wife, then you don't love her - per your logic ...

Whose husband in his right mind would compromise the life of his beloved wife just to have sex?

A good Christian, obviously!
 
Signal said:
"Sex is the ultimate expression of love." - or isn't it? If you don't have sex with your wife, then you don't love her - per your logic ...

Whose husband in his right mind would compromise the life of his beloved wife just to have sex?

A good Christian, obviously!
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My wife's desires would need to be taken into account and any decision arrived at jointly.

Perhaps "ultimate expression of love" is not an appropriate words or poor choice of words, but it doesn't mean I don't love her.
 
YoYoPapaya said:
Meaning knowing his soul. But when is the soul "put into" the child?
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There are several definitions for the word "child":
A young human being below the age of full physical development or below the legal age of majority.
or
a person 14 years and under.
or
Biologically, a child (plural: children) is generally a human between the stages of birth and puberty

These are vague. However, as soon as the sperm penetrates the egg, it is a human being which possesses a soul with free will and intellect, and the gift of life given to them by Almighty God. That's really all you need to know.
 
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