10 Questions for skeptics

[Crunchy Cat]

That could be intentional.

On a pure conceptual level perhaps. If we take into account all the contradictory evidence that exists for virtually any specific religions claim of 'God', then considering 'intent' would require the following to be true:

* It's intended that no supportive evidence of 'God' will exist (cover up).
* It's intended that false contradictory evidence to 'God's existence will exist (cover up and deception).

No life form on earth would have the capacity to pull such a thing off; hence, the onus would be on 'God'. The contradictory evidence would raise lots of 'what the hell' type of discoveries and eventually be found to be false. People would begin thinking 'who / what duped us?' and know that something in fact did; hence, the discovery of falsified contradictory evidence becomes supportive evidence (thus the intent is doomed to failure).

The progress of our knowledge fortunately has never turned up even the slightest hint of empirically false contradiction; hence, the original assertion that intention could be a possibility just isn't the case.

You referring to this post?

Nope... this one:

"If I were to sum this up into a concise statement, then the reason you believe is doing so provides intense positive emotional satisfaction and health in your life... and this in itself would serve as evidence of 'God's existence (i.e. emotional benefit being a reward of belief)."

 

[Silas]

One thing I'm learning through this thread though is that doesn't matter what I say. I think the reason that everyone keeps refuting my responses is that you've already made up your minds against the very basis of my beliefs, in which all of my explanations stem from - a concept which you have already refuted to begin with.

I rather thought the reason everyone keeps refuting your responses was that you had posted the questions (from the ChristianAnswers site) and wanted to see what the response from atheists was. Wasn't that the whole point of the thread? Did you honestly expect people to read your responses and say, "Of course! It's so obvious I've been wrong my whole life!" I for one don't expect you to change your mind based upon what I say. Well, to change your mind about the value of apologetics, maybe, but certainly not to lose your faith over it.

Hi ggazoo,

Simply put, there is no evidence in reality to even remotely suggest that 'God' exists.

That could be intentional.

Indeed. On the television the other week, even Richard Dawkins conceded that the ultimate mystery of Existence could be down to God. Which is to say that, despite all appearances to the contrary, scientists have never made categorical statements of the nature "Evolution is true, therefore there is no God" or "The Big Bang is the explanation for the Universe, therefore there is no God".

When we argue in favour of Evolution against Creationists, we are not going out of our way to deny God, we are fighting for the right to teach established fact in schools. We are not fighting against apologetic explanations of the form "the Creation story is an allegory in which each Day could stand for billions of years", we are fighting against our children being taught in school that Evolution is a theory with inexplicable gaps that completely undermine its acceptance as fact. That is simply an outright lie which we are at pains not to have taught in our schools. Evolution is a fact established with no less a basis than the Atomic Theory of matter, General Relativity or the Quanta.

When we argue against Intelligent Design being taught as a science, it is because it is not a science, and propagates a system of looking at science which is not acceptable to any scientist - ie to decide that certain biological structures are "irredcibly complex" and then reaching a conclusion about Design. This is not science, as I've pointed out, because it picks an arbitrary point of the current limit of human understanding and then decides that here we stop investigating.

We argue against what seems to us to be blind acceptance of the Bible as God's Word and thus infallible, because scientific discoveries that are in conflict with the Bible are once again getting suppressed in the United States as they did in Europe in the early years of scientific discovery.

This is what I would believe if I believed in God:

• God leaves no fingerprints. This is more or less what you meant when you responded to Crunchy Cat's noting of the total absence of evidence for God, that perhaps it was intentional. I wouldn't believe in Intelligent Design because that would imply God's inability to create something without proving his existence.
• God is the God of truth. Denying the overwhelming evidence for evolution is simply lying to oneself, and promoting the idea that evolution is unsupported is lying to other people (specifically the schoolchildren) and that is against God's law, considerably more than disbelieving in Genesis 1 is.

 

[Silas]

You'll need to justify this with actual quotes and citations of the things that came to pass. Let us take ("here he goes again", everybody says) Isaiah 7:14, the supposed prediction of the Virgin Birth of Christ. The original Hebrew does not say "virgin". If you read it in context, it is very obvious that Isaiah is actually trying to convince King Azaria of something that is going to happen very very soon - within the next year or two. It is entirely to do with the kingdom of Judah facing two powerful enemies and Isaiah's counsel - as advised by Yahweh - is to let the two enemies wear each other out. He illlustrates this by describing a child that is shortly to be born, and before it can speak (before it can say "mama" and "papa"), the enemies will be vanquished. He isn't telling him of some baby being born in seven centuries' time who is going to "save" the people from an oppressor (the Romans) who haven't even come out of their caves yet, and when the current enemy (Assyria, Babylon) will be little more than a memory. I don't call that much of a prophecy or much in the way of fulfillment.

The Hebrew word "almah," which is the word that Christian Bibles often translate as "virgin," actually means "young woman." It is true that "almah" means "young woman," however, the Bible never uses the word to refer specifically to a married woman. And the Bible makes it clear that unmarried women are to be virgins.

I sort of knocked off the "virgin" bit quickly, because it was incidental to my point. You haven't answered my real reason for rejecting Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy of Jesus on the basis that Isaiah was talking to King Ahaz (not Azaria as I said, sorry) about events that were taking place right then, circa 740 BCE.

100prophecies.org

]1. Abraham's descendants would have their own country
Bible passage: Genesis 15:18
Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: 1400 BC and in 1948

But Abraham's descendents include all the Arabs including the Ishmaelites. Israel is only one small part of it.

2. Jacob saw a vision of Israel's future
Bible passage: Genesis 28:10-15
Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: Throughout history
In Genesis 28:10-15, the Bible says that Jacob, who lived about 4000 years ago, received a vision from God about the future of his descendants (the Israelites, who today are commonly called "Jews"). The vision accurately foretold their future. Here is our summary:

1. Jacob's descendants would have Israel as their own country. (Gen. 28:13). This was fulfilled about 3400 years ago when the Israelites first established Israel.
2. The Israelites would be like dust, spreading out to the east, west, north and south. (Gen. 28:14). Throughout history, the Jews have been scattered worldwide. They are the first and only group of people to be scattered worldwide.​

Genesis was actually written during the time of the Book of Kings. What kind of story of origins would not have a "prophecy" that demonstrated the current status quo, ie a united nation of Israel. Then the Israelites were indeed scattered, in fact the nation of Israel was completely destroyed. The Jews of today are the descendents of the people of Judah, who themselves were taken into captivity by the Babylonians, but within the century were allowed to return and build the Second Temple.

3. The Israelites would have a worldwide impact. (Gen. 28:14). Jews have had a tremendous worldwide impact in science, art, literature, economics, music and theology. The worldwide spread of Christianity began 2000 years ago by Jews who were followers of Jesus.​

^Take careful note of this one.

4. Jacob’s descendants would be brought back to Israel. (Gen. 28:15). This began to be fulfilled during the late 1800s when many Jews worldwide began returning to their ancient homeland. They re-established Israel's independence in 1948.​

An indication perhaps that Genesis actually dates from after the Exile. But at any rate, expressing a hope which then is fulfilled does not constitute a prophecy that is likely to convince a skeptic.

3. Counting Abraham's descendants would be like counting the stars
Bible passage: Genesis 15:5
Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: Throughout history
[...]
Genesis 15:5
He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars - if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

Isaac Asimov pointed out that God did a whole lot better by Abraham than that initial promise indicated, since there are only about 6,000 stars visible in the night sky at one time!

4. The people of Israel would be scattered worldwide
Bible passage: Deuteronomy 28:64
Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: 721 BC, 586 BC, 70 AD, 135 AD, modern times

Hang on - this is the same as the prophecy at 2 (2), above.[/quote]

5. God will never forget the children of Israel
Bible passage: Isaiah 49:13-18
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: Throughout history

Ask a Holocaust survivor if they still believe that. At any rate, it's a subjective determination. Just because there are still Jews in the world is not necessarily an indication that God has not forgotten them. There are many minority peoples in the world who have undergone similar trials, yet they survive to this day.

6. The people of Israel would have a worldwide impact
Bible passage: Genesis 12:2-3
Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: Throughout history

Hey! Precisely the same as 2 (3) above!

7. Israel would be partitioned by other nations
Bible passage: Joel 3:2
Written: about 400 BC
Fulfilled: 1900s


8. Israel would be restored and repopulated
Bible passage: Ezekiel 36:8-10
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s

About the only thing here which is valid. Sufficient to bolster a weakening faith, but not enough to convert someone. After all, Ezekiel was expressing his hopes for a repopulated Israel, in order to ensure the people never turned away from God. That Israel has been restored and repopulated is a fulfillment of that hope, maybe, but not necessarily a fulfillment of clairvoyance visions.

9. Jesus' life was foreshadowed by the prophet Isaiah
Bible passage: Isaiah 42:1-9
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: About 2000 years ago
In Isaiah 42:1-9, the prophet Isaiah speaks of a servant of God who will be a light to the Gentiles (non-Jews) and bring justice to the world. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of this promise.

Full marks for not jumping straight to Isaiah 7:14. But even the terms they describe its fulfillment sound like begging the question. It's a truism to say that "Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment". Of course they do, that's why they're Christians. Imagine if Jesus had never lived, or had never risen to prominence. Imagine that John the Baptist's followers had founded a Church instead (with his martyrdom at the hands of Herod Antipas taking the place of Christ's under Caiaphas and Pontius Pilate). How would John be any less the fulfillment of Isaiah's requirements?

10. Jesus said His words would never be forgotten
Bible passage: Luke 21:33
Written: about 30 AD
Fulfilled: At this very moment

Nobody has ever denied the power and influence that Jesus Christ has exerted on the world, for the which you can pretty much thank the Emperor Constantine. Obviously if Jesus had been forgotten, then we wouldn't be here arguing the subject. The power of the story and philosophy of Jesus on people throughout the last 2000 years is certainly not in any doubt. It's not of itself a confirmation of His Divinity, however. After all, then you would be able to claim the same for Mohammed.

So it boils down to this: exhortations that were expressed in a "God will do this if you worship me..." kind of way are turned, after the fact, into prophecies. I thought it was rather sad that they only way they could get 10 "fulfilled" prophecies in the list was by repeating themselves.