10 Questions for skeptics

SkinWalker said:
And here I thought you were going to sound off with discoveries of ossuaries, arks, chariots under the Red Sea, the Shroud of Turin, etc., etc. I must give you some credit for not falling for such nonsense.

Thanks SkinWalker, I'm trying. ;)

One thing I'm learning through this thread though is that doesn't matter what I say. I think the reason that everyone keeps refuting my responses is that you've already made up your minds against the very basis of my beliefs, in which all of my explanations stem from - a concept which you have already refuted to begin with.
 
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An extract from ggazoo's quoted website concerning Darwin -

"Charles Darwin was a tragically mistaken man who drifted from a childlike trust in One who helped him run to school on time into an abyss of hopelessness and agnosticism. While the spiritual journey of a Christian is a journey out of darkness into Christ's marvellous light, that of Charles Darwin was a slippery slide out of Gospel light (although not saving spiritual sight) into the sheer "blackness of darkness for ever."

Darwin's unbelief, like that of so many people today, had its roots in a mind which first rejected the revelation of God in the Bible and then was unwilling to accept the revelation of God which God Himself has given in nature. This religion of revelation, of the Bible, of the Lord Jesus Christ, will keep us tuned to truth, hope, and life in God, and away from evolutionism, humanism, and atheism, only as we allow it to exercise its power in our hearts. The tragedy of Charles Darwin is that he never did."

It seems very sad that one of greatest scientists ever, who brought such immense enlightenment to the world should be seen by these Christians as a tragic mistake.
 
My mind is very open. If presented with testable, reproducible evidence, I would be forced to side with that evidence.

However, I do note that the believer in silliness that ranges from religious cults to ESP to UFOs nearly always begins with a conclusion and then begins to search out confirmations. I work the other way around. Show me the confirmations then I'll settle on the conclusions. Until then, the evidence I see suggests that religion is a virus of the mind, albeit probably one that has been necessary to some extent in the development of humanity.
 
"1. How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe?"
in this quantum universe that we exist in, there is NO order.

"2. How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of Biblical stories, places, and people?"
i haven't heard of any archaelogical evidence to be honest

3. From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense?
do you believe lying can be a moral act?
i do
assuming you dont, then humanity has no universal moral sense
most people believe that war can be a moral act, i dont. once again, no universal moral sense.

"4. If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?"
my individual moral sense

"5. Please explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal, or how order could have ever resulted from chaos."
there is no such thing as personality, merely a complex arrangement of molecules
order does not exist, chaos is everywhere, as supported by quantum mechanics

"6. How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible complexity of its essential components?"
darwins theory of evolution clearly explains how humans evolved from single celled organisms. i am not sure how single celled organisms came to be

"7. Why does the Bible alone, of all of the world's 'holy' books, contain such detailed prophecies of future events? Many of which have already been fulfilled?"
yes, ive seen some of the bibles prophecies "and the world shall believe a lie" they come true because they are deliberately vague.

"8. Are you aware that every alleged Bible contradiction has been answered in an intelligible and credible manner?"
are you aware that the star wars movies contain no contradictions?

"9. How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to consistently author one unified message (i.e. The Bible)?"
do you have any proof that it was written by these people?

"10. Why subscribe to the incredible odds that the tilt and position of our planet relative to the sun are merely coincidental?"
are you meaning to say, that it is unlikely that a planet will exist that can support life? when you take into account the fact that there are billions of stars in each galaxy, there is a very large chance of suitable planets existing
 
ggazoo said:
All responses I expected. :)

Hey Crunchy Cat, I pose the question to you now... why don't you believe?

Hi ggazoo,

Simply put, there is no evidence in reality to even remotely suggest that 'God' exists.

Hey let me know if my summed up interpretation of your last response was accurate?

Thanks!
 
Ggazoo,

One thing I'm learning through this thread though is that doesn't matter what I say.
It will if you say something that provides factual evidence for supernatural claims.

I think the reason that everyone keeps refuting my responses that you've already made up your minds against the very basis of my beliefs, in which all of my explanations stem from - a concept which you have already refuted to begin with.
Well yes. Most here have seen the same religious assertions many many times before, you have yet to introduce anything new. Assertions alone and appeals to emotionalism will not penetrate a need for facts. Remember you are not addressing an ill-informed gullible public here.

You will need to do more than simply state what you believe on faith if you expect to convince any non-believers here that you have anything worthwhile.
 
ggazoo said:
Well, just look at something like sex. A simple idea of a shaft fitting into a hole... you don't think someone had to conceptualize that?
Well, I conceptualize it quite often, but no, I don't think any entity needed to plan the whole process as it stands now in order for it to work, not even if you conceptualize the biosphere of Earth as a living entity.

I don't think you should assume that all our minds are totally made up on the subject of religion, some certainly are, but I for one have some respect for the teachings of Jesus. I think that Christianity has misinterpreted them, placed their emphasis in the wrong places, and in the early years intentionally destroyed the variety of thought that existed about Jesus. Science as a field of study would be nowhere if not for scientists acknowledging doubt and uncertainty about their findings, but they can be more certain about them than theistic explanations, which are untestable.
 
Crunchy Cat said:
Hi ggazoo,

Simply put, there is no evidence in reality to even remotely suggest that 'God' exists.

That could be intentional.

Crunchy Cat said:
Hey let me know if my summed up interpretation of your last response was accurate?

You referring to this post?

spidergoat said:
Well, I conceptualize it quite often, but no, I don't think any entity needed to plan the whole process as it stands now in order for it to work, not even if you conceptualize the biosphere of Earth as a living entity.

I don't think you should assume that all our minds are totally made up on the subject of religion, some certainly are, but I for one have some respect for the teachings of Jesus. I think that Christianity has misinterpreted them, placed their emphasis in the wrong places, and in the early years intentionally destroyed the variety of thought that existed about Jesus. Science as a field of study would be nowhere if not for scientists acknowledging doubt and uncertainty about their findings, but they can be more certain about them than theistic explanations, which are untestable.

I agree completely.
 
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ggazoo said:
That could be intentional.
It could be - but why place a belief in something for which there is no evidence, intentionally so or otherwise.
If it is intentional - where is the evidence of the intent?


Do you believe that this Universe is actually created by an invisible 6-headed pink Unicorn that lives just outside our field of view?

If not, why not?

Does lack of evidence have anything to do with it?
 
Sarkus said:
I thought Nostradamus made more accurate prophecies than the Bible? And please indicate the passages in the bible that categorically predict future events - and please indicate them BEFORE that event. To see a prediction in a book AFTER the event is merely subjective interpretation of the text - unless the text is unambiguously clear. So - evidence please?

This is the one question that I was most curious about. Thoughts on the following link:

http://100prophecies.org/

Silas said:
You'll need to justify this with actual quotes and citations of the things that came to pass. Let us take ("here he goes again", everybody says) Isaiah 7:14, the supposed prediction of the Virgin Birth of Christ. The original Hebrew does not say "virgin". If you read it in context, it is very obvious that Isaiah is actually trying to convince King Azaria of something that is going to happen very very soon - within the next year or two. It is entirely to do with the kingdom of Judah facing two powerful enemies and Isaiah's counsel - as advised by Yahweh - is to let the two enemies wear each other out. He illlustrates this by describing a child that is shortly to be born, and before it can speak (before it can say "mama" and "papa"), the enemies will be vanquished. He isn't telling him of some baby being born in seven centuries' time who is going to "save" the people from an oppressor (the Romans) who haven't even come out of their caves yet, and when the current enemy (Assyria, Babylon) will be little more than a memory. I don't call that much of a prophecy or much in the way of fulfillment.

The Hebrew word "almah," which is the word that Christian Bibles often translate as "virgin," actually means "young woman." It is true that "almah" means "young woman," however, the Bible never uses the word to refer specifically to a married woman. And the Bible makes it clear that unmarried women are to be virgins.
 
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ggazoo said:
This is the one question that I was most curious about. Thoughts on the following link:

http://100prophecies.org/

It said at recently fulfilled prophecies:

1. Israel will ultimately prevail over its enemies
How do we know? What's ultimately? Now? in 100 Years? Yesterday?


2. The ruins of Israel would be rebuilt
Bible passage: Amos 9:11, 13
Written: about 750 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s
Amos 9:11, 13
"In that day I will restore David's fallen tent. I will repair its broken places, restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be,'' … "The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when the reaper will be overtaken by the plowman and the planter by the one treading grapes. New wine will drip from the mountains and flow from all the hills."

Where is davids tent then???


4. Trees would flourish again in a desolate Israel
Isaiah 41:18-20
I will make rivers flow on barren heights, and springs within the valleys. I will turn the desert into pools of water, and the parched ground into springs. I will put in the desert the cedar and the acacia, the myrtle and the olive. I will set pines in the wasteland, the fir and the cypress together, so that people may see and know, may consider and understand, that the hand of the Lord has done this, that the Holy One of Israel has created it.

Actually applied science and technology and a polotical alliance made israel florish, not god.

6. Jerusalem would become the world's most important religious site
Micah 4:1
In the last days the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.
Where is this temple?

7. Egypt would never again rule over nations
Ezekiel 29:15
… I will make it so weak that it will never again rule over the nations.
Did God make egypt weak?

8. Zechariah prophesied the Jews return to Jerusalem
Zechariah 8:7-8
This is what the Lord Almighty says: "I will save my people from the countries of the east and the west. I will bring them back to live in Jerusalem; they will be my people, and I will be faithful and righteous to them as their God."
He forgot to save about a few million jews from the nazi genocide. He wasn't there to bring them back. He was faithful and righteous by delivering them into the hands of a German lunatic.

9. Israel's deserts will become like the Garden of Eden
Isaiah 51:3
The Lord will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins; he will make her deserts like Eden, her wastelands like the garden of the Lord. Joy and gladness will be found in her, thanksgiving and the sound of singing.

People transformed the deserts with technology.

Pretty general predictions that aren't even faithful to reality.

Is that the best you can do?
 
What if a religion other than Christianity produced prophets who's predictions were accurate?
 
Can I show you one?
Yes, but before I do, what would be the implications for your belief system?
 
Oh what the hell:

When the iron eagle flies and horses run on wheels, the Tibetan people will be scattered over the earth and the dharma will go to the land of the red man." -- Tibetan Prophecy

"When the iron bird flies, the red-robed people of the East who have lost their land will appear, and the two brothers from across the great ocean will be reunited." --Hopi Prophecy
 
My apologies, but I haven't currently read all the posts in this thread. I am going to answer the questions as if there are no other posts, but if my answers collide with anyone elses I would like to take this opportunity to apologise.

How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe?

Such as? Do not take this the wrong way, (yes, I hate questions that are answered with questions), but I do require an example to be able to provide a substantial answer. Thanks in advance.

How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of Biblical stories, places, and people?

This is somewhat akin to asking how you would account for the finding of Erech, (the home of Gilgamesh - also featured in the bible: "mighty hunter before the Lord. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar."

Does the inclusion of real places mean that the characters are themselves as they have been portrayed? Does the existence of Erech mean that Gilgamesh existed, was a demi-god and had a beast friend, (Enkidu), sent down from the gods to kill him? Did they battle ogres and did Gilgamesh really bump into half men, half scorpions?

You will find, if you get into writing, that the majority of locations are based upon existant places.

Other than this I am unsure what "vast archaeological documentation" you are referring to.

From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense?

Such as? (hate to say it but again I need an example). Let it be said that as a species that finds community so important, some kind of 'getting along' is essential. Chimps, dolphins, even ants have similar systems in place. Ants don't just go around raping, killing and mugging other ants. From this perspective our morality is lower than theirs. They serve the queen without question. When one ant gets food the others help carry it, (they don't steal it), when one ant gets in a 'barney' with another insect, other ants help - they don't just stand there and watch it die etc etc etc.

Please, be more specific.

If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?

To me.. Hmm it's a hard one to answer. I guess I would say this:

I want sex - and thus I am nice to my wife, I want to earn enough to put food on my table - and thus I must be able to communicate with others and work with others, etc.

Selfish perhaps, but enough motivation.

. Please explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal, or how order could have ever resulted from chaos.

I do not feel I could personally provide an answer sufficient enough for you. Needless to say, if your understanding of evolution isn't to a good enough degree, any explanation would be a waste of time.

One other thing: What do you consider as 'chaos' and what do you consider as 'order'?

How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible complexity of its essential components?

The giant invisible frog dude from outer space? If you're asking for an absolute then I am afraid nobody will ever be able to provide it, (including you). I would for now suggest some research into self replicators.

Why does the Bible alone, of all of the world's 'holy' books, contain such detailed prophecies of future events? Many of which have already been fulfilled?

Kindly name those that have been fulfilled and kindly state which other 'holy books' you have read to know that they do not contain similar prophesies.

Are you aware that every alleged Bible contradiction has been answered in an intelligible and credible manner?

Are you aware you're talking nonsense? Most here have seen apologetics sites and most of them are frankly quite laughable. Further to which: I can answer any supposed contradictions found in the Enuma Elish. The point?

9. How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to consistently author one unified message (i.e. The Bible)?

Well.. they didn't "consistently" do anything, which is why there's so many contradictions. Four of the apostles can't even get jesus' last words right even though they were apparently all standing right there. Makes you wonder.

However, considering it is a religious text it would remain well looked after in a place of religion. As time and society progressed, the people with writing ability would add to it whatever they deemed appropriate.

Why subscribe to the incredible odds that the tilt and position of our planet relative to the sun are merely coincidental?

Ask that question to the people that live on Jupiter or any one of the other billions of planets where there are people... 0_o
 
1. How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe?

Just as war brings about new technology for all to enjoy, so does evolution. If not for war, we would not have most of the inventions we do because there would have been no need to so urgently try and design them. We'd be hundreds of years into the past today if not for war. And just like the dangers of life, our bodies adapt to it.

However, I do believe in some kind of higher power. I'm an agnostic that believes in a higher power. The difference is that I believe we have no idea who and/or what that higher power is that started all of creation. I believe all religion to be mere philosophical thoughts on the "what ifs" of God. It's no different than me writing a book about you, whom I may feel is an important person yet I have no idea who you are. I can write all about you, but it doesn't mean it's true since I've never met you but my thoughts sculpted you into what I wish you would be.

I believe that after the moment of creation, science took over and everything evolved. It's as if that higher power created a program of evolution in that things would continue to build and build and build. The universe is continuing that creation loop and everything we see is an offset of that. We are an offset of that. It all comes down to that first act of creation. Who knows, the Big Bang could be that Supreme Being that went on a suicide mission blowing up and starting off this chain reaction of creation. Hey, the Bible says we're all a part of God so that could be it.

2. How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of Biblical stories, places, and people?

The same reason why I can account for the Mississipi River that Mark Twain talks about in his books? Real life stuff is talked about all the time in books. Just because the Bible mentions a city that existed, it doesn't mean all of a sudden everything in the Bible is 100% true just like Mark Twain's books aren't 100% true even though it references many real life things.

3. From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense?

If I punch you in the face and you feel your body in pain, wouldn't you tell me not to hit you again? Bam, there's one rule of morality. If I kill your mother and you feel sad, would you not want no killings to happen? If I steal your lollipop, would you not want me to do it again? It's pretty simple how to create morals.

4. If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?

Laws and the reactions of others in our present life. If there were no laws or fear of retribution from others, I could go kill a man and steal his money. However, now that I know I could risk being put in jail for the rest of my life, that sucks, so I wouldn't wanna spend the rest of my life in confinement. However, people still do so and have a lower standard of risk vs reward.

Most of what motivates people though is their morals. As I mentioned earlier, it's pretty easy to come up with a sense of morals all by yourself. And for the religious people, it's the false known or the unknown that causes fear into them. What if God is real and what the Bible says is true? They sure don't wanna spend eternity in Hell.

5. Please explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal, or how order could have ever resulted from chaos.

Things simply change. Look all around you; that's proof enough. How can I dislike the taste of tomatoes then later on all of a sudden like them? All sorts of factors can come into play. Well for me, I liked tomatoes later because it was in salsa and other flavors enhanced it's plain taste. Now I love em!

6. How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible complexity of its essential components?

How do you account for a person with a one in multi-million change of winning the lottery? It's bound to happen. How long has the universe existed? Billions of years. That's a lot of chances for some weird crazy thing to spark and happen every second for billions and billions of years. We all may have just won the lottery of the universe, of whatever was first created in which finally spawned us after that chain reaction of evolution.

7. Why does the Bible alone, of all of the world's 'holy' books, contain such detailed prophecies of future events? Many of which have already been fulfilled?

Detailed prophecies don't mean a darn thing. I can come up with quite a few detailed ones. As for them already having been fulfilled, please name one.

8. Are you aware that every alleged Bible contradiction has been answered in an intelligible and credible manner?

No, and that's also because they haven't. How can you answer a question that there is no knowledge of? That's basically making things up. I can tell you that God likes to paint his toenails purple and since nobody can prove or disprove that, does it mean I'm correct? All of the holy bible is just a book. Lots of it could very well be correct in a historical sense such as Soddom and Gomarah being burned to the ground, etc, I have no doubts about real events, but when it comes to talking about God and all that other stuff, it's complete rubbish. I believe all of the normal things to be true, even if there's no way to prove most of it, but for some of the outlandish claims, I do not believe and I toss it up to it being something unknown but explained in terms only known to man at the time.

Take Ezekial's vision he sees of a supposed UFO. That could very well be a UFO, not some multi-faced being with wheels, etc etc as is written in the bible. If the so-called "Gods" of the Bible, and other holy books, actually did happen, I believe them to be extraterrestrials, and not true "Gods". They're god-like, nothing more, and that's only due to their technology. It's no different when natives see a plane fly overhead thinking it's some flying beast or something. They just don't know what it is so they do their best to try and understand what it is with their limited knowledge. But for a true Supreme Being to exist, there would be no way to know about it as it'd be on a much higher plane of existance than us. It would be like an atom interacting with a human and vice versa.

9. How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to consistently author one unified message (i.e. The Bible)?

Pretty simple. If you're amazed at the bible doing that, you should see Hindu texts as they span an even longer time period and their books are basically limitless. Ever play the "finish my line/story" on message boards"? Someone writes a sentence or paragraph then another person continues the story. Pretty easy to do.

Not to mention that when there's not much to do in those olden times, people can dedicate their whole lives to doing something so mundane as that. Yes, it seems like something hard to do in todays world only because our times are much different than theirs. If you had no TV, no computer, no phone, basically no much technology period, you'd be able to dedicate your life to many things such as that whether it's artwork, crafting things, or whatever. Heck, that's why the brilliant minds of the past were so brilliant, because the had the time to dedicate their lives to being rennaisance men such as Leonardo DiVinci. They were skilled in all areas. Some were artists, inventors, scientists, advisors -- all in one!

10. Why subscribe to the incredible odds that the tilt and position of our planet relative to the sun are merely coincidental?

What's so coincidental about it? It's not as if this is the only planet in the universe to be like it. We simply lucked out. There's billions and billions of planets out there and after that many planets, surely there's gonna be one that has life on it. And when that happens, they'll ask your same question. How were they so lucky to be in such conditions to spawn their life?

- N
 
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ggazoo said:
1. How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe?

order what order?

2. How do you account for the vast archaeological documentation of Biblical stories, places, and people?

try the forum at www.infidels.org for biblical questions,there are many biblical scholars

3. From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense?

from themselves

4. If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?

empathy,feelings for others,also one person alone canot survive easily so we all need others for our happiness

5. Please explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal, or how order could have ever resulted from chaos.

natural progression

6. How do you account for the origin of life considering the irreducible complexity of its essential components?

wtf is this ireducible complexity nonsence?
for origins of life search ABIOGENESIS

7. Why does the Bible alone, of all of the world's 'holy' books, contain such detailed prophecies of future events? Many of which have already been fulfilled?

it doesnt

8. Are you aware that every alleged Bible contradiction has been answered in an intelligible and credible manner?

it wasnt
if yes then answer these www.skepticsannotatedbible.com

9. How did 35-40 men, spanning 1500 years and living on three separate continents, ever manage to consistently author one unified message (i.e. The Bible)?

have any proof other than bible said so?

10. Why subscribe to the incredible odds that the tilt and position of our planet relative to the sun are merely coincidental?

why not?

if you think god did it,then maybe you could explain why he created natural disasters,tsunami waves,volcanic eruptions and all those creepy crawlers snakes bugs poisonous spiders and deadly mosquitos which kill millions of people with mallaria...
 
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