Zionist piracy

[Billy T]

... What you're suggesting has been tried by the US in Iraq (the C-RAM system) using rounds that self-destruct after rising and then falling back to a preset altitude. While C-RAM does work pretty well against high-angle fires (mortars and rockets) it is only useful when fired out over a rural area. Less than 100% of the rounds will fuze properly so the beaten zone remains a UXO hazard until properly cleared.

CIWS fires bullets, not rounds with an explosive charge that can not fuse properly so I think we are not on the same page. Bullets fall in Gaza every time the Palestinians celebrate something or even just march thru the streets.

 

[Billy T]

It's not acceptable for people in your country to be killed by rockets, no matter what the rate of success.

Nonsense. Israel is accepting it when CIWS units stored in their warehouse (earlier versions now replaced by more modern version on their ships) could stop 100% of the Gaza rockets that happen to be coming to all near border villages, like Sderot, with in range of Gaza rockets. I repeatedly have asked if anyone can tell me a reason why Israel accepts a few deaths annually (other than to justify the high kill ratio policy).

Do you have a different reason why Israel does not kill these rocket while still high in the air with 30 year old technology that was used to defend the Israeli navy ships against threats 1000 times more difficult to stop? For example, used to stop the supersonic, weaving, sea-skimming, French Exocet cruise missile.

 

[Echo3Romeo]

CIWS fires bullets, not rounds with an explosive charge that can not fuse properly so I think we are not on the same page. Bullets fall in Gaza every time the Palestinians celebrate something or even just march thru the streets.

CIWS != C-RAM.

Whereas naval Phalanx systems fire tungsten armor-piercing rounds, the C-RAM uses the M246 or M940 HEIT-SD (High-Explosive Incendiary Tracer, Self-Destruct) ammunition, originally developed for the M163 Vulcan Air Defense System. These rounds explode on impact with the target, or upon tracer burnout, thereby greatly reducing the risk of collateral damage, should any rounds fail to hit their target.

The ones that fail to self-destruct will fall back to earth and present a UXO hazard to everyone in the beaten zone. Using tradition Tungsten or DU sabots, as is done with the CIWS, would be worse still.

 

[Billy T]

... (1) if you {SAM} have some evidence that their claims {terrorist fire from areas dense with civilians} are false, then by all means present it. As it is, you're just reasoning from bigotry, as is your usual course when it comes to this subject. ... (2)there is no uninhabited civilian area on the border with Gaza. It's civilian infrastructure right up to the edge. Gaza is crowded like that.

(3)And in the second place, even if it were, a few photos of launchers in such an area is not evidence that the preponderance of attacks aren't being launched from elsewhere.

On (1) Sam did present three photos of firing from fields. I have seen others, including exhaust trails coming out of wooded area (orange or olive groves, I think).

On(2) Nonsense. Even though Palestine is one of the more densely inhabited region, there is a lot of agriculture and olive and orange groves. Even the Israeli artillery fires ~100 artillery shells (so they said) each day into such places to prevent their use by terrorists.

(3) Then you should be able to produce many more than three photos too with the rockets being launched near apartment buildings etc. - Certainly Israel has "under cover" agents in Palestine with cameras, who would be happy to take such pictures.

 

[pjdude1219]

CIWS != C-RAM.



The ones that fail to self-destruct will fall back to earth and present a UXO hazard to everyone in the beaten zone. Using tradition Tungsten or DU sabots, as is done with the CIWS, would be worse still.

not to mention the usual dangers of bullets falling out of the sky.

 

[Billy T]

CIWS != C-RAM.
The ones that fail to self-destruct will fall back to earth and present a UXO hazard to everyone in the beaten zone. Using tradition Tungsten or DU sabots, as is done with the CIWS, would be worse still.

New land version used in Iraq to defend the "Green Zone" et. al.
Older CIWS’s bullets just fell in the sea so were not fused. Bullets not self destructing. No need to worry where all that did not hit the target went.

From your CIWS link: “Shell:
Naval - Armor-piercing tungsten penetrator rounds with discarding sabots.
Land - High-Explosive Incendiary Tracer, Self-Destruct. Caliber 20 mm Barrels 6

{I think even simple steel bullets were also used at first. At APL we spoke of: "Throwing up a wall of lead for target to run into, more than hitting the target but we knew it was not lead. Only the naval system existed until recently. CIWS is now 30 years old!}

From your C-RAM link:
“C-RAM is an initiative taken in response to an operational needs statement made by the Multinational Force Iraq (MNF-I). The directive arose in response to the increasing number of casualties caused by attacks using rockets, artillery, and mortars in Iraq. The land-based Phalanx B was subsequently deployed in Iraq in the summer of 2005. It protects the Green Zone and Camp Victory in Baghdad, Logistics Support Area Anaconda in Balad, Iraq, and is also deployed by the British Army in southern Iraq. Israel is considering buying the system to counter rocket attacks and defending point military installations. Each system costs $15 million, and uses a 20 mm M61A1 Gatling gun firing 3,000 or 4,500 M-246 or M-940 rounds per minute. The shells are fused to self-destruct in the air.[1][2] “

Also, I think the original CIWS cost less than a million dollars each and no doubt Israel has them stored in warehouses now.

 

[CheskiChips]

Interestingly, you (and Israel) see provocation in Iran`s behaviour, but are quite blind to provocations in your own (Israel`)s behaviour. :m:

Looks like you're interested easily, it might have something to do with that pot leaf.

 

[CheskiChips]

This is a newer land version.
Older CIWS’s bullets just fell in the sea so were not fused. Bullets not self destructing. No need to worry where all that did not hit the target went.

From your CIWS link:
“Shell Naval - Armor-piercing tungsten penetrator rounds with discarding sabots.
Land - High-Explosive Incendiary Tracer, Self-Destruct. Caliber 20 mm Barrels 6

From your C-RAM link:
“C-RAM is an initiative taken in response to an operational needs statement made by the Multinational Force Iraq (MNF-I). The directive arose in response to the increasing number of casualties caused by attacks using rockets, artillery, and mortars in Iraq. The land-based Phalanx B was subsequently deployed in Iraq in the summer of 2005. It protects the Green Zone and Camp Victory in Baghdad, Logistics Support Area Anaconda in Balad, Iraq, and is also deployed by the British Army in southern Iraq. Israel is considering buying the system to counter rocket attacks and defending point military installations. Each system costs $15 million, and uses a 20 mm M61A1 Gatling gun firing 3,000 or 4,500 M-246 or M-940 rounds per minute. The shells are fused to self-destruct in the air.[1][2] “

You seem to be obsessed about this. Israeli military are not stupid, if they thought it was a viable option they would likely deploy it. They might even be worried of errors...the air-traffic in the region is rather high, man...you should see the flight paths of planes landing in Ben-Gurion. I think there's a lot of people who agree that it would be smart to implement it...why don't you write a letter to to the IDF? They do in fact respond to requests, and short questions. You can do so on the "Contact Us" section of their website.

 

[pjdude1219]

You seem to be obsessed about this. Israeli military are not stupid,

their current string of failures would disagree with you.

 

[CheskiChips]

their current string of failures would disagree with you.

I'd bet all their native Hebrew speakers could parse better English sentences than you.

 

[pjdude1219]

I'd bet all their native Hebrew speakers could parse better English sentences than you.

Still the same. resorting to personal attacks. false ones at that




incedently the air traffic around ben-gurion is not really all that high. its not even in the top 30 by any metric. I could think of areas with far heavier air traffic than the area surround ben-gurion.

 

[Billy T]

... Israeli military are not stupid, if they thought it was a viable option they would likely deploy it. ...

The military's options are politically controlled. So military will not defend Sderot so long as there is need for a couple of Israelis to be killed by Gaza rockets each year to justify killing >1000 Palestinians. (1300, many innocent civilians, some with war crime White Phosphorous, in December 2008 vs. 13 Israeli dead, and ALL were soldiers.) Note also this 1300 does not include those that die for lack of medical supplies (including electric power in hospitals at times) Many in need of medical help are currently crossing into Egypt to get it.

Again: I want Israel to drop the failed High Kill Ratio policy and defend 100% of its citizens, before the black balloons filled with Anthrax (or Ebola) dust start drifting over the border on moonless nights (not from Gaza but Lebanon, Egypt or Jordan or if the wind is on shore, from small boats off Tele Vive).

As far as CIWS bullets hitting air planes, I think that a very low risk which if not zero can easily be solve by restricting the flight zones. Even without that, if an air plane were within range, it would not have the Doppler signature of an inbound target headed for Sderot. (I am assuming Sderot does not have an airport.)

 

[StrawDog]

Looks like you're interested easily, it might have something to do with that pot leaf.

And where you see a pot leaf, I see hemp fiber. Just a matter of perspective.
Shalom.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

China is not shoving its hand into the pot by force. It's easy (so far) to not do business with China if you don't want to, and aren't Tibet.

Hype was not speaking of 'force', he was speaking of 'superpower nannies' like the US. I used China as an example of a superpower who wasn't going to stop using its influence.

 

[S.A.M.]

The term makes Israel's independence seem like the greedy pursuit of wealth rather than what it was, a valiant attempt to save Jewish culture from genocide.

If Israel is an example of Jewish culture, maybe it should be dumped along with the outdated ideologies of Judaism that most Jews already have dumped.

When your religion requires the abuse of human rights for survival, its time to move on. You don't believe in the Torah, keep the Sabbath, eat kosher or kill homosexuals. What culture do you want to save for Jews in the future apart from the apartheid of Jewish exceptionalism for which Israel has achieved distinction?

Even the protocol of the elders is a rank amateur when up against the realities of present day Zionism.

Why would you want to save this "culture" anymore than Indians would want to resurrect the caste system? :

Mother of nine dies after being run over by settlers in Hebron
http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/2280.shtml

Jordan Valley families given 10 days to leave homes
The move, described as "devastating" to the families by head of the Atuf village council Abdallah Bisharat, would see more than 50 Palestinians made homeless and deprived of their livelihoods.
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=290089

Settlers set fire to hundreds of acres of agricultural land south of Nablus
June 4th, 2010-- At six in the morning of June 2nd, 2010, Israeli settlers from the settlement of Yizhar set fire Palestinian agricultural land. The owners tried to hold back the settlers with stones but the arrival of the Israeli Occupation Forces allowed the settlers to continue and destroy the agricultural land on the Mount of Suleiman.
http://stopthewall.org/latestnews/2279.shtml

IOF soldiers detain 12 Jerusalemites in Silwan
Israeli occupation forces (IOF) detained 12 Jerusalemites in Silwan town, south of the Aqsa Mosque, after storming their homes on Sunday, local sources reported.
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/En/...U5KR7qtu4sTBlxMjkQ22a5dwbcn0cH84qkDGo3MX1CJ4=

Seriously, get out of that ghetto mentality which requires killing/oppressing thousands of individuals for a suspect piece of chromososmal aberration

 

[Billy T]

... If you have evidence that rockets are not being fired from civilian areas, please present it. ...

Quad that is an impossible task, AND YOU KNOW IT. - All request to proof that something does not exist ARE IMPOSSIBLE.
Anyway the burden of proof is on you to show that the rockers are fired from civilian areas as you claim.

Sam has shown photos of them being fired from uninhabited near border areas. That stands to logic also as these rockets often don't have the range to get to Sderot so must be fired from the uninhabited buffer zone* Israel has made in Gaza along the border.

Also, as I pointed out in prior post, 1324, if what you claim, without proof, were true then there should be many photos taken by undercover Israeli agents in Gaza for you to show, but you have shown ZERO.

-----------
*actually from just inside the edge of an orange or olive grove, along the buffer Israel has cleared with bulldozers, usually as they need some cover to set up

 

[S.A.M.]

Ken O'Keefe who was one of the activists on the Mavi Marmara has released his statement:

First, here is Ken before/after his experience on the flotilla

[Moderator warning: Graphic image follows. Click at own risk.]

http://warincontext.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ken-o-keefe.jpg

And here is his full statement:

I have for many years understood that we, people of conscience, are the true holders of power in this world. Frustratingly however we have largely relinquished that power and failed to reach our full potential. Our potential to create a better world, a just world. Nonetheless I have conspired with others of like mind to reveal and exercise our true power. In 2002 I initiated the TJP Human Shield Action to Iraq because I knew that the invasion of Iraq had been planned well in advance, that it was part of a ‘Global Spectrum Dominance’ agenda as laid out by the Project For A New American Century.

I knew that protests had no chance of stopping the invasion, and that largely these protests were just a way of making us feel better about the coming mass murder; by being able to say I protested against it. With that understanding I argued that the only viable way to stop the invasion was to conduct a mass migration to Iraq. A migration in which people from around the world, especially western citizens, would position themselves at sites in Iraq that are supposed to be protected by international law, but which are routinely bombed when it is only Iraqi, Palestinian, generally non-white, western lives who will be killed. I felt 10,000 such people could stop the invasion, or at the very least, expose the invasion for what it was from the start, an act of international aggression, a war crime and a crime against humanity.

When our two double-decker buses travelled from London to Baghdad through Turkey, it was ever clear that the people of Turkey also could sense the power of this act, and they were the biggest participants in it. In the end we did not get the numbers required to stop the war, with at least one million Iraqi’s dead as a result, but I remain convinced that it was within our power to prevent the invasion. A massive opportunity lost as far as I am concerned.

In 2007 I joined the Free Gaza Movement with its plan to challenge the blockade of Gaza by travelling to Gaza by sea. From the moment I heard of the plan I knew it could succeed and ultimately I served as a captain on the first attempt. The Israeli government said throughout our preparation that we were no better than pirates and they would treat us as such. They made clear we would not reach Gaza. And still I knew we could succeed. And we did. Two boats with 46 passengers from various countries managed to sail into Gaza on August 23, 2010; this was the first time this had been done in 41 years. The truth is the blockade of Gaza is far more than three years old, and yet we, a small group of conscientious people defied the Israeli machine and celebrated with tens of thousands of Gazans when we arrived that day. We proved that it could be done. We proved that an intelligent plan, with skilled manipulation of the media, could render the full might of the Israeli Navy useless. And I knew then that this was only the tip of the iceberg.

So participating in the Freedom Flotilla is like a family reunion to me. It is my long lost family whose conscience is their guide, who have shed the fear, who act with humanity. But I was especially proud to join IHH and the Turkish elements of the flotilla. I deeply admire the strength and character of the Turkish people, despite your history having stains of injustice, like every nation, you are today from citizen to Prime Minister among the leaders in the cause of humanity and justice.

I remember being asked during the TJP Human Shield Action to Iraq if I was a pacifist, I responded with a quote from Gandhi by saying I am not a passive anything. To the contrary I believe in action, and I also believe in self-defence, 100%, without reservation. I would be incapable of standing by while a tyrant murders my family, and the attack on the Mavi Marmara was like an attack on my Palestinian family. I am proud to have stood shoulder to shoulder with those who refused to let a rogue Israeli military exert their will without a fight. And yes, we fought.

When I was asked, in the event of an Israeli attack on the Mavi Mamara, would I use the camera, or would I defend the ship? I enthusiastically committed to defence of the ship. Although I am also a huge supporter of non-violence, in fact I believe non-violence must always be the first option. Nonetheless I joined the defence of the Mavi Mamara understanding that violence could be used against us and that we may very well be compelled to use violence in self-defence.

I said this straight to Israeli agents, probably of Mossad or Shin Bet, and I say it again now, on the morning of the attack I was directly involved in the disarming of two Israeli Commandos. This was a forcible, non-negotiable, separation of weapons from commandos who had already murdered two brothers that I had seen that day. One brother with a bullet entering dead center in his forehead, in what appeared to be an execution. I knew the commandos were murdering when I removed a 9mm pistol from one of them. I had that gun in my hands and as an ex-US Marine with training in the use of guns it was completely within my power to use that gun on the commando who may have been the murderer of one of my brothers. But that is not what I, nor any other defender of the ship did. I took that weapon away, removed the bullets, proper lead bullets, separated them from the weapon and hid the gun. I did this in the hopes that we would repel the attack and submit this weapon as evidence in a criminal trial against Israeli authorities for mass murder.

I also helped to physically separate one commando from his assault rifle, which another brother apparently threw into the sea. I and hundreds of others know the truth that makes a mockery of the brave and moral Israeli military. We had in our full possession, three completely disarmed and helpless commandos. These boys were at our mercy, they were out of reach of their fellow murderers, inside the ship and surrounded by 100 or more men. I looked into the eyes of all three of these boys and I can tell you they had the fear of God in them. They looked at us as if we were them, and I have no doubt they did not believe there was any way they would survive that day. They looked like frightened children in the face of an abusive father.

But they did not face an enemy as ruthless as they. Instead the woman provided basic first aid, and ultimately they were released, battered and bruised for sure, but alive. Able to live another day. Able to feel the sun over head and the embrace of loved ones. Unlike those they murdered. Despite mourning the loss of our brothers, feeling rage towards these boys, we let them go. The Israeli prostitutes of propaganda can spew all of their disgusting bile all they wish, the commandos are the murderers, we are the defenders, and yet we fought. We fought not just for our lives, not just for our cargo, not just for the people of Palestine, we fought in the name of justice and humanity. We were right to do so, in every way.

While in Israeli custody I, along with everyone else was subjected to endless abuse and flagrant acts of disrespect. Women and elderly were physically and mentally assaulted. Access to food and water and toilets was denied. Dogs were used against us, we ourselves were treated like dogs. We were exposed to direct sun in stress positions while hand cuffed to the point of losing circulation of blood in our hands. We were lied to incessantly, in fact I am awed at the routineness and comfort in their ability to lie, it is remarkable really. We were abused in just about every way imaginable and I myself was beaten and choked to the point of blacking out… and I was beaten again while in my cell.

In all this what I saw more than anything else were cowards… and yet I also see my brothers. Because no matter how vile and wrong the Israeli agents and government are, they are still my brothers and sisters and for now I only have pity for them. Because they are relinquishing the most precious thing a human being has, their humanity.

In conclusion; I would like to challenge every endorser of Gandhi, every person who thinks they understand him, who acknowledges him as one of the great souls of our time (which is just about every western leader), I challenge you in the form of a question. Please explain how we, the defenders of the Mavi Marmara, are not the modern example of Gandhi’s essence? But first read the words of Gandhi himself.

I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence…. I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonour. – Gandhi

And lastly I have one more challenge. I challenge any critic of merit, publicly, to debate me on a large stage over our actions that day. I would especially love to debate with any Israeli leader who accuses us of wrongdoing, it would be my tremendous pleasure to face off with you. All I saw in Israel was cowards with guns, so I am ripe to see you in a new context. I want to debate with you on the largest stage possible. Take that as an open challenge and let us see just how brave Israeli leaders are.

http://pulsemedia.org/2010/06/06/ken-okeefe-we-the-defenders-of-the-mavi-marmara/

He is absolutely right about Gandhi, anyone interested can read Gandhi's opinion of Palestine here:http://www.gcmhp.net/File_files/Ghandi.html

More of Ken O'Keefe's video diaries and stuff here:

“All I saw in Israel was cowards with guns”

 

[Billy T]

its the price you pay for wars of conquest. the conquered rarely just accept it.

but it has happened:

The Bedouins never even fired a shot as they were herded into the concentration camp cites (on <1% of the worse part of the Negev Desert). Very much like the Jews when Nazis were herding them onto trains bound for concentration camps.

 

[Billy T]

Everyone says they want peace. But if you listen to people long enough, you start to notice that what most of them are actually talking about is not "peace" but "victory." They think of peace as what happens naturally after they've destroyed their enemies and siezed total control of the situation.

Which, sure, is something they want. But it would be perverse to say that such people want to make peace.

This goes for everyone, in general, not just this particular conflict.

That certainly goes for the orthodox Jewish part of Israel, which due to higher birth rate and other reasons is gaining influence in the politics of Israel.
Their POV is at times clearly stated by posters here: "Gaza is ours" etc.

...
But at some point a difference in degree becomes a difference in kind. When the "terms" in question are understood to be unacceptable to begin with, one can no longer claim to sincerely want to make peace. In that case, the terms are simply a list of concessions to be extracted from the enemy once victory is attained. And that's the agenda of any party producing such terms: they want victory attained through war. That is the opposite of peace.

For example of this hard position, take the status of Jerusalem. Not only is it non-negotiable according to Israel, it is being transform to "for Jews only" by destruction of non-Jew homes, illegal (even according to the US) expansion of settlements to establish "facts on the ground."
Deeds, re-enforcing your words, are much stronger statement of your point than words in some old charter of Hamas.

 

[Billy T]

It's an important point, they were not conquerors. They were, for the most part, refugees from the war in Europe.

Quite belligerent refugees, initially mainly to the British authorities.

For example, Ben Gurion blowing up the King David Hotel, killing a lot of Brits did help persuade the Brits to get out and set up a state for Israel (and got him elected as PM).