Zionism - What exactly is it?

[S.A.M.]

How about moving to Palestine and plowing the Temple under to set up a mosque on the basis of some mythological camel-ride? Your arguments on this matter are childish; you have not understood the narrative of the oppression of the Jewish people in the West and East - and before you embark on your usual journey of misread bullshit, tell me what a dhimmi is.

What Temple? The Israelis have dug from Ottoman right upto Canaan. The Temple is mythology

Actually, this is a broad supposition. Many Muslims consider themselves Muslims first and everything else second. You can't sit there and pretend that the Islamic in "Islamic Republic" is meaningless, with the deliberate collusion of religion and state in those nations.

Feel free to educate us on the national aspirations of Muslim Russians which lie in their religious homelands, whatever you think they may be.

 

[GeoffP]

What Temple? The Israelis have dug from Ottoman right upto Canaan. The Temple is mythology

Hehe. Keep believing that, if it makes you feel better, but I pity you. I can only assume you have time to post on here because one of your banjo strings is broken.

Feel free to educate us on the national aspirations of Muslim Russians which lie in their religious homelands, whatever you think they may be.

You wish to discuss Islam and nationalism? You lose.

http://www.al-islam.org/islamandnationalism/9.htm
http://members.cox.net/arshad/nationalism.htm
http://www.haqeeqat.org/2009/11/07/nationalism-islam-a-must-read-study/

How many more discourses would you like? Will you read these, even?

 

[S.A.M.]

Hehe. Keep believing that, if it makes you feel better, but I pity you. I can only assume you have time to post on here because one of your banjo strings is broken.

Ho hum. Lets see

Evidence one:

In the United States the biblical archaeology movement, under the influence of Albright, counter-attacked, arguing that the broad outline within the framing narratives was also true, so that while scholars could not realistically expect to prove or disprove individual episodes from the life of Abraham and the other patriarchs, these were real individuals who could be placed in a context proven from the archaeological record. But as more discoveries were made, and anticipated finds failed to materialise, it became apparent that archaeology did not in fact support the claims made by Albright and his followers. Today, only a minority of scholars continue to work within this framework, mainly for reasons of religious conviction.[22] "[Albright's] central theses have all been overturned, partly by further advances in Biblical criticism, but mostly by the continuing archaeological research of younger Americans and Israelis to whom he himself gave encouragement and momentum ... The irony is that, in the long run, it will have been the newer 'secular' archaeology that contributed the most to Biblical studies, not 'Biblical archaeology'.

No kings

Evidence 2:

The scholarly history of the Deuteronomic history parallels that of the Pentateuch: the European tradition history school argued that the narrative was untrustworthy and could not be used to construct a narrative history; the American Albright school asserted that it could when tested against the archaeological record; and modern archaeological techniques proved crucial in deciding the issue. The test case was the book of Joshua and its account of a rapid, destructive conquest of the Canaanite cities: but by the 1960s it had become clear that the archaeological record did not, in fact, support the account of the conquest given in Joshua: the cities which the bible records as having been destroyed by the Israelites were either uninhabited at the time, or, if destroyed, were destroyed at widely different times, not in one brief period. The most high-profile example was the "fall of Jericho", when new excavations in the 1950s by Kathleen Kenyon revealed that the city had already been abandoned by the time of Joshua.[24

No kingdom

Evidence 3:

Thomas L. Thompson, a leading minimalist scholar for example has written

"There is no evidence of a United Monarchy, no evidence of a capital in Jerusalem or of any coherent, unified political force that dominated western Palestine, let alone an empire of the size the legends describe. We do not have evidence for the existence of kings named Saul, David or Solomon; nor do we have evidence for any temple at Jerusalem in this early period. What we do know of Israel and Judah of the tenth century does not allow us to interpret this lack of evidence as a gap in our knowledge and information about the past, a result merely of the accidental nature of archeology. There is neither room nor context, no artifact or archive that points to such historical realities in Palestine's tenth century. One cannot speak historically of a state without a population. Nor can one speak of a capital without a town. Stories are not enough."

No temple

Moreover, Jerusalem is not even mentioned in the Pentateuch, so much for the "eternal capital" of all Jews

Parshat Re'eh: No Jerusalem in Torah

Nablus and Mount Ebal are mentioned in the Torah, not Jerusalem or the Temple Mount. God chose not to tell us His chosen place, He even left it to us to decide where His place is. A word on free choice
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3136760,00.html

You wish to discuss Islam and nationalism? You lose.

http://www.al-islam.org/islamandnationalism/9.htm
http://members.cox.net/arshad/nationalism.htm
http://www.haqeeqat.org/2009/11/07/nationalism-islam-a-must-read-study/How many more discourses would you like? Will you read these, even?

So who are the Muslim Russians aspiring for a religious homeland?. Give me ONE name - only ONE name.

 

[GeoffP]

You know, I only realized just now that you do have quite the interest in (imperialist) religious archaeology. Good for you: everyone needs a hobby.

Ho hum. Lets see

Evidence one:

There's actually even less evidence that Mo rode a camel up that way, unless people have found fossilized holy droppings. Or perhaps his camel produced no droppings? That's kind of hard to believe: Islam considers itself very grounded in 'reality' and cites this presumed advantage over other religions, as you have alluded to in the past. So, I think his magical flying camel would indeed take a dump, perhaps as it flew. Has anyone found such droppings? Maybe the camel - realizing the inherent, er, 'immorality' of Jewish people - would prefer to drop it on them? Maybe someone recorded the Fortean falling of several pounds of camel shit.

No temple

Moreover, Jerusalem is not even mentioned in the Pentateuch, so much for the "eternal capital" of all Jews

Good try, Ahmet! However, there is in fact (as I delve into the unfamiliar area of Jewish religious archaeology) evidence of a number of mikveh pools around Jerusalem, and right near the Temple Mount:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/133558

Holy Temple Mikveh Discovered

Holy Temple Mikveh Discovered Near Western Wall
by Hillel Fendel

(IsraelNN.com) A 2,000-year-old mikveh (ritual bath) has been uncovered just 20 meters from the Western Wall.

Whoops!

Given its location just outside the Holy Temple - where untold numbers of Jews regularly immersed before entering - the newly-revealed pool is among the largest ever discovered in Jerusalem.

The mikveh was found at the site known as the Western Wall Tunnels, which has long been under excavation and study by the Israel Antiquities Authority, with the support of the Western Wall Heritage Foundation.

It is located about 30 meters past the entrance to the Tunnels, in the general direction of the Western Wall. Once it becomes open to the public, the 11 broad steps leading down to the mikveh will be seen approximately 8 meters below floor level.

Josephus, the famous turncoat general and historian of the period, wrote that the administrative and governmental center of Jerusalem was located at the foot of the Temple, and that among the buildings there were the National Council and the Lishkat HaGazit, Chamber of Hewn Stone, where the Sanhedrin – Israel’s Supreme Court – convened. The archaeologists feel that it is possible that the luxurious hall aside the mikveh was originally one of these structures.

Archaeologist Alexander Ohn, the director of the dig, explains: “It is interesting to note that in the middle of the first century, changes were made in the grand structure. It was no longer used for public administrative purposes, and in its western wall a large mikveh was installed – with 11 steps descending into the immersion pool. It appears that Jerusalem was growing at this time, and with it the need to provide a solution for the increasing numbers of people who came en masse to Jerusalem, especially on the pilgrimage festivals (Passover (Pesach), Pentecost (Shavuot), and Tabernacles (Sukkot)). Ritual immersion in a mikveh and precise observance of the laws of purity were an inseparable part of Jewish life at this time; the importance of a mikveh, especially in this location, was great.”

Parts of the mikveh had been uncovered in the past, but now another hall – one of three – has been revealed. The structure was built of smooth stone hewn in a particularly intricate manner, with high-quality decorations and architectural style. Its importance can be determined by the fact that it is similar to other luxurious structures built by King Herod such as the Temple Mount, the Machpelah Cave, and one in Elonei Mamreh.

http://templemountjerusalem.blogspot.com/2009/09/holy-temple-mikveh-discovered.html

Sweet! This is great stuff; sometimes I contemplatively imagine myself doing this kind of thing, uncovering fantastic sites in the ancient strata of Jerusalem. I mean, is there a greater service to the past? Although I do admit a more Indiana Jones-ish theme lurking in the back of my mind.

Anyway - what, Sam asks, can a mikveh possibly be? Well, I admit I'd only heard of it in a distant way earlier: in point of fact, I seem to recall it from your last racist attack on Jews in which you didn't give its name.

Mikveh (or mikvah, both also spelled without the ending -"h") (Hebrew: [1] מִקְוָה or מקווה , Modern Miqva Tiberian Miqwāh ; plural: mikva'ot or mikves[2] Hebrew: מִקְוֶוֹת or מִקְוָאות) is a bath used for the purpose of ritual immersion in Judaism. The word "mikveh", as used in the Hebrew Bible, literally means a "collection" – generally, a collection of water.[3]

Several biblical regulations specify that full immersion in water is required to regain ritual purity after ritually impure incidents have occurred. Most forms of impurity can be nullified through immersion in any natural collection of water. Some, such as a Zav, however require "living water,"[4] such as springs or groundwater wells. Living water has the further advantage of being able to purify even while flowing as opposed to rainwater which must be stationary in order to purify. The mikveh is designed to simplify this requirement, by providing a bathing facility that remains in ritual contact with a natural source of water.

Its main uses nowadays are:

by Jewish women to achieve ritual purity after menstruation or childbirth
by Jewish men to achieve ritual purity (see details below)
as part of a traditional procedure for conversion to Judaism
for utensils used for food.

In Orthodox Judaism these regulations are steadfastly adhered to, and consequently the mikveh is central to an Orthodox Jewish community, and they formally hold in Conservative Judaism as well. The existence of a mikveh is considered so important in Orthodox Judaism, that an Orthodox community is required to construct a mikveh before building a synagogue, and must go to the extreme of selling Torah scrolls or even a synagogue if necessary, to provide funding for the construction.[5] Reform Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism regard the biblical regulations as anachronistic to some degree, and consequently do not put much importance on the existence of a mikveh. Some opinions within Conservative Judaism have sought to retain the ritual requirements of a mikveh while recharacterizing the theological basis of the ritual in concepts other than ritual purity.

Ancient mikvehs dating from before the late first century can be found throughout the land of Israel as well as in historic communities of the Jewish diaspora. In modern times, mikvehs can be found in most communities in Orthodox Judaism. Jewish funeral homes may have a mikveh for immersing a body during the purification procedure (tahara) before burial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikvah

Keine Juden hier! (Just kidding - ancient Herodion mikveh, many thousands of miles away from where those darn Jews ever lived, I'm sure)

Althoughin all seriousness: just a tiny bit closer than Nablus and Mount Ebal, wouldn't you say? By the by: shouldn't Jewish authorities then be in charge of both of the latter?

Check this out from the wiki on the Temple Mount:

In 363 CE, the Roman emperor Julian ordered Alypius of Antioch to rebuild the Temple as part of his campaign to strengthen non-Christian religions.[12] The attempt failed, perhaps due to sabotage, an accidental fire, or an earthquake in Galilee.

Gee. Even the Romans didn't know! And they lived in the area, were familiar with its history thousands of years before you! Gawrsh, that's hard to reconcile. Try these links, too:

Achaemenid Persian, Hasmonean periods, and Herod’s expansion

Much of the Mount's early history is synonymous with events pertaining to the Temple itself. After the destruction of Solomon’s Temple by Nebuchadnezzar II, construction of the Second Temple began under Cyrus in around 538 BCE, and completed in 516 BCE. Evidence of a Hasmonean expansion of the Temple Mount has been recovered by archaeologist Leen Ritmeyer. Around 19 BCE, Herod the Great further expanded the Mount and rebuilt the temple. The ambitious project, which involved the employment of 10,000 workers,[9] more than doubled the size of Temple Mount to approximately 36 acres (150,000 m2). Herod leveled the area by cutting away rock on the northwest side and raising the sloping ground to the south. He achieved this by constructing huge buttress walls and vaults, filling the necessary sections with earth and rubble.[10] A basilica (the Royal Stoa) was constructed on the southern end of the expanded platform, which provided a focus for the city's commercial and legal transactions, and which was provided with separate access to the city below via the Robinson's Arch overpass.[11] In addition to restoration of the Temple, its courtyards, and porticoes, Herod also built Antonia Fortress abutting the northwestern corner of the Temple Mount, and a rainwater reservoir, Birket Israel, in the northeast. As a result of the First Jewish-Roman War, the fortress was destroyed by Roman emperor Vespasian, in 70 CE, under the command of his son and imperial heir, Titus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_mount

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leen_Ritmeyer

http://www.templemount.org/

You might not like those references - and I know you won't - but you might try reading and refuting them. How about this one, too?:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020210164811/http://us.geocities.com/rfaizer/reviews/book9.html

There seems to be little doubt in the minds of most Muslims - or anyone else -that the Temple was located where the Dome and al-Aqsa were erected. It only seems to come up when there's the tiniest suggestion that maybe the Jews should have it back. Do you see an ethical conflict in this difference? Let me know.

**********************************************​

So who are the Muslim Russians aspiring for a religious homeland?. Give me ONE name - only ONE name.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2010/10/sec-101005-rianovosti01.htm

:shrug:

Hey, check this shit out: a gang of racists in the Phillipines are pushing for a Muslim Homeland there...in that traditional place Muslims come from.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSSP3702420071205?pageNumber=2

I wonder what other homeland movements are being spawned by Islamists in other countries?

Well, that's more than enough for now. Bonne chance la-bas.

 

[S.A.M.]

Good try, Ahmet! However, there is in fact (as I delve into the unfamiliar area of Jewish religious archaeology) evidence of a number of mikveh pools around Jerusalem, and right near the Temple Mount:.

Hmm, so you found a bath which is evidence of a temple. A Bath = A Temple

Hmm...

But as more discoveries were made, and anticipated finds failed to materialise, it became apparent that archaeology did not in fact support the claims made by Albright and his followers. Today, only a minority of scholars continue to work within this framework, mainly for reasons of religious conviction

There is no evidence of a United Monarchy, no evidence of a capital in Jerusalem or of any coherent, unified political force that dominated western Palestine, let alone an empire of the size the legends describe. We do not have evidence for the existence of kings named Saul, David or Solomon; nor do we have evidence for any temple at Jerusalem in this early period. What we do know of Israel and Judah of the tenth century does not allow us to interpret this lack of evidence as a gap in our knowledge and information about the past, a result merely of the accidental nature of archeology. There is neither room nor context, no artifact or archive that points to such historical realities in Palestine's tenth century. One cannot speak historically of a state without a population. Nor can one speak of a capital without a town. Stories are not enough

But you found a bath...

Yeah I see what you mean

 

[spidergoat]

This has lost me, I asked about Zionism and now I dont even understand half the posts.

For the Great Indignant one, Zionism is synonymous with the policies of the Israeli government and the plight of Palestinian Arabs. But all it actually means is that the Jews should have political power in the form of a State, in order to address their frequent oppression at the hands of Christians and Muslims throughout history.

 

[GeoffP]

Hmm, so you found a bath which is evidence of a temple. A Bath = A Temple

Oooh - more cognitive dissonance? Don't get into what the ritual bath represents, or why it might be found in such a place. Fair interpretation would probably do your argument a disservice.

But you found a bath...

Yeah I see what you mean

Sadly, you don't. But again: don't let that worry you. Cognitive dissonance really carries no social stigma when displayed across the anonymity of the internet. In short: it's unlikely you'll suffer for it.

In the meantime, please continue to pick out single points that you think you can debate out of the entirely of my rebuttals and then pretend that the whole argument revolves around them. After all, you've persisted this long with that tactic, so it clearly must confer some kind of usefulness.

EDIT: I forgot - you didn't cite your references. Again.

 

[S.A.M.]

Oooh - more cognitive dissonance? Don't get into what the ritual bath represents, or why it might be found in such a place. Fair interpretation would probably do your argument a disservice.

.

Clearly a bath in the absence of everything else can only denote the fact that it was made to replace every other archaeological evidence that would verify the presence of the people, the kings, the kingdom, the town, the population. I mean, its not like Egyptians or Canaanites or Syrians or Samaritans or Phoenicians believed in taking baths

Here is another Jewish temple its Temple 0 at the Indus valley civilisation

How do we know? There is a BATH. No other evidence of Jews but a BATH

 

[GeoffP]

You have again failed to grasp the significance of a ritual bath. Ah well.

Anyway, don't blame me about finding baths here and there: maybe your lot should stop going around exterminating local cultures so that there's barely any evidence left of them, or else do a thorough job for once. Is all that somehow going to end up being my fault for paying my American taxes and whatnot?

 

[S.A.M.]

You have again failed to grasp the significance of a ritual bath. Ah well.

Anyway, don't blame me about finding baths here and there: maybe your lot should stop going around exterminating local cultures so that there's barely any evidence left of them, or else do a thorough job for once. Is all that somehow going to end up being my fault for paying my American taxes and whatnot?

Ah no, I am waiting for the significance to be demonstrated.

Lets see. Here is another BATH. Its falsely being called a Roman pool but everyone knows that you can identify a Bath as the presence of a Jewish Temple. And, its in Jerusalem

Here is another one, a mikveh bath also in Jerusalem

http://www.biblewalks.com/Photos5/korazim3.JPG

Here is another one, at Masada where the Roman Jewish porcine martyrs were found!

Clearly all you need are steps and a hole in the ground and its evidence of a Jewish Temple.

Who needs silly stuff like ANYTHING ELSE?

 

[GeoffP]

Clearly all you need are steps and a hole in the ground and its evidence of a Jewish Temple.

Who needs silly stuff like ANYTHING ELSE?

Wow! That Roman bath and a mikvah look exactly alike! You totally didn't put words in my mouth and they totally relate to what I was saying earlier!

Except that they don't, and you did, and that it doesn't.

 

[S.A.M.]

So tell me, how do you know its a mikveh?

And not a Roman bath:

Or a Roman bath:

http://www.panoramio.com/photos/original/16149371.jpg

Or a Roman bath:

Because while that area is chock full of artifacts of the Roman persuasion, there are no aritifacts from any temple [hence no evidence of a temple of that period]

What in the absence of any other identifying sign, makes it a mikveh rather than a Roman bath?

 

[quadraphonics]

The "Jewish nation over the world" can be substituted by the Christian nation over the world or the Hindu nation over the world or by the Muslim nation over the world to understand why France, Mauritius and Indonesia is not the same as Israel.

Nah, that doesn't work. There is Christian nation, as such, nor Hindu. Those are just religions, not nationalities.

There are some people who think Jews should be held to a different standard, their mythology given more credo, but I fail to understand why they cannot be treated just like any other religion.

Because they're also a nation. Why shouldn't they be treated like any other nation?

Although I'll note that there's no lack of states that enshrine unequal, exclusivist rights for members of state-affiliated religions. Israel's behavior in that regard is anything but rare.

Why can't Jews be civic members of society just like other religions?

Who said they can't? There are plenty of such where I live.

Why do they have to be a nation requiring a homeland

Why do Indians have to be a nation? Why does anyone? The thing about self-determination is that they aren't answerable to you.

Meanwhile, it's broadly accepted - almost universal, actually - that nations are entitled to a homeland in which they enjoy self-determination and political control. If one is to accept the nation-state as a legitimate basis for world political organization, one can hardly complain when nations demand states of their own, and go about acquiring them via the standard means (statecraft, up to and including open warfare).

The point I'm getting at is that this entitlement, while it sounds all nice theoretically, is really accepted because it's practically convenient. Most nations are situated in more-or-less compact areas, and so dividing the world up into corresponding states results in a relatively stable, durable set of relations. Except in certain cases, where the situation of the nations are not particularly stable or established. So, the option is figure out how to make them stable and compact, or give up on the legitimacy of the nation-state. Either option involves war - the only question is where and how much.

even when it means evicting the natives of the place they have determined is their religious homeland?

That's how nation-state relations work. Each nation is entitled to its homeland - literally, a territory where they are entitled to pursue supremacist politics in favor of the nation - and disputes are settled through statecraft. This particular conflict is peanuts compared to the ones associated with setting up the system of nation-states in, say, Europe and Asia (the World Wars). That's why the system sustains it.

And if the latter, what is the position of Jews outside this homeland? Are they still a nation that has been distributed over the world?

How they want to identify, and what political implications such an identification carries, is up to them. It's not for me to say.

 

[rcscwc]

Hmm then why are you posting in this thread?

Because you posted trash about Hindus, even when Palestine does not concern them. For too long India allowed heart to dominate head on this issue. Now India treats Israel realistically.

 

[GeoffP]

Because while that area is chock full of artifacts of the Roman persuasion, there are no aritifacts from any temple

Except the mikvehs. How do you know it's a Roman bath and not a mikveh?

 

[S.A.M.]

Except the mikvehs. How do you know it's a Roman bath and not a mikveh?

First, mikveh can be anything from a well to a swimming pool.

http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/1541/jewish/The-Mikvah.htm

It can be as simple or as as elaborate as people want to make it. There is really no distinguishing feature that would make it stand out. Its like the sinks you have for wudu outside mosques. Its only the presence of the mosque that distinguishes it from a normal bath in a home or in a courtyard. In the absence of any other evidence its highly ridiculous to say the bath is a mikveh. It would be the presence of the temple which would confirm it as a mikveh. Even the so called mikveh near Masada is probably a Roman bath, considering the remains found there were more likely Roman soldiers.

Plus, most importantly, the Israelis have a history of damaging archeological finds which belong to non-Jewish history and lying to support their narrative.

But even if we were to consider them shining examples of integrity, there is simply no evidence that supports any aspect of the whole OT stuff. The whole thing has become the refuge of desperate religious fundamentalists who will grasp at any straw [or bath] to to wrap a kingdom around. Its like finding a horseshoe nail and using it to insist that the place was a battleground. Even the people who insist that the Mesha Stele's David is King David are hard put to explain why no mention of him is made in any of the contemporary histories. The whole time period of the "glorious" Jewish kingdom is, in reality a time of great impoverishment of the Levantine. So no matter how you wing it - it just cannot be real.

 

[Adstar]

Following on from another thread, in which I got totally confused (and wrong) I would like to know, in purely laymans terms, what is Zionism and how does it affect middle eastern politics and thinking? I wrongly said somebody was anti jewish when in fact the person was anti zionist. My misguided notes on this led me to believe this was the same as semitism, which it obviously isn't. My fault.

Zionism is the movement for the restoration of the Jewish nation to the lands their ancestors where evicted from by the Roman Empire post 70AD.

I agree that one can be anti-zionism without being anti-Jewish.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Even if Hindus in India convert to Islam, that is not the same as all the Muslims in the world moving to India because of some mythological basis. Muslims in Russia are Russians, Christians in Russia are Russians, but Jews in Russia are a nation of Jews? Why?

Two forces at work though history in Europe causing this.

1) European peoples seeking to keep Jews as outsiders in their nations. Not accepting Jews as truly fellow citizens. Shunning them.

2) And many Jews seeking to be separate from the gentiles they live with, so as to preserve their sperate culture. One that they have deemed superior to the surrounding culture.

Put 1 and 2 together makes Jewish integration for the most part of European History unachievable. because the forces maintaining separation where greater then the forces seeking integration and acceptance.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[GeoffP]

First, mikveh can be anything from a well to a swimming pool.

Ooh, a 1st-century swimming pool. Say on.

It can be as simple or as as elaborate as people want to make it. There is really no distinguishing feature that would make it stand out.

So you're saying you personally don't know what it is. Thanks, but I'll go with the Dutch guy.

Plus, most importantly, the Israelis have a history of damaging archeological finds which belong to non-Jewish history and lying to support their narrative.

I'll comment on your insults by reminding you there's no evidence of anything to do with your faith, either.

 

[arfa brane]

Zionism is the movement for the restoration of the Jewish nation to the lands their ancestors where evicted from by the Roman Empire post 70AD.

Do you have any references to the historical eviction of Jews from their homeland by the Romans?
Do you know how long it took, and how many legions were needed? How much did it cost the Empire?

Why was an eviction carried out in this particular part of the world, when there is no evidence that the Roman Empire did anything like this in any other conquered territory? The Emperor must have been really pissed at the Jews, I guess.