Zionism - What exactly is it?

[S.A.M.]

Sorry SAM. Hinduism has no doctrine of establishing a Hindu nation on the world. If you can can quote a scripture I will examine it. If needed I SHALL distance myself from it. But such a doctrine is clearly there in the three desert religions.

And yet we have Hindu nationalist parties, yes? But to get to the point I am attempting to make, the population of indigenous Jews in Palestine was less than 10% during WWI [7.5%]

This is proportionally less than the population of Muslims in India at the moment [17.3%] or blacks in the US [12.4%]

However, because Jews have a mythology which gives them a religious claim on Jerusalem immigrant Jews have formed a state based on Jewishness in Palestine, in which the local population has been dispossessed and made into refugees.

 

[GeoffP]

Which differs how from the reverse before that point? And which you do not particularly gripe about, I note.

 

[S.A.M.]

Even if Hindus in India convert to Islam, that is not the same as all the Muslims in the world moving to India because of some mythological basis. Muslims in Russia are Russians, Christians in Russia are Russians, but Jews in Russia are a nation of Jews? Why?

 

[rcscwc]

And yet we have Hindu nationalist parties, yes? But to get to the point I am attempting to make, the population of indigenous Jews in Palestine was less than 10% during WWI [7.5%]

This is proportionally less than the population of Muslims in India at the moment [17.3%] or blacks in the US [12.4%]

However, because Jews have a mythology which gives them a religious claim on Jerusalem immigrant Jews have formed a state based on Jewishness in Palestine, in which the local population has been dispossessed and made into refugees.

Yes. There are Hindu nationalistic parties. But do they aspire to to impose Hindu nation on the World.

But do we not have muslim parties likec Muslim Leaugue? Or xian parties in NE? Is PDP of Kashmir not a muslim party? What about Akali Dal? What about a crassly communal Ram Vilas Paswan, who thinks nothing of fielding a Laden look alike? Or Monica Bedi, the moll of a muslim goonda?


What do you want to prove by that graph?

Why does your heart bleed for Palestine? I will tell why. MUSLIM vs Jew. How does far off Israel or Palestine concern me? No way, pal, no way.

Are you an Indian? If so, what are your nationalistic ideals? A strong India or a muslim India?

SAM, I respect you for your positive views, except when you get swayed by SIMI like goons. I know it is not common, but it is there. A small corner of your heart still pines for nizam-e-mustafa.

 

[S.A.M.]

What do you want to prove by that graph?

That if in 1947, the immigrant Jews had decided their homeland was in India, and the British had donated India to the Jews, we would be the Palestinians

edit to respond to edit:

Why does your heart bleed for Palestine? I will tell why. MUSLIM vs Jew. How does far off Israel or Palestine concern me? No way, pal, no way.

Are you an Indian? If so, what are your nationalistic ideals? A strong India or a muslim India?

SAM, I respect you for your positive views, except when you get swayed by SIMI like goons. I know it is not common, but it is there. A small corner of your heart still pines for nizam-e-mustafa.

That is a valid allegation or would be, if I were not consistent in my approach. We have a parallel situation in Kashmir where post US arming and funding of the mujahideen in the 1980s, Muslim religious fundamentalists immigrated into Kashmir from Afghanistan and Pakistan and drove out the native Hindus. This is exactly what the naqba did to the Palestinians. I fully support the refugees from Kashmir for the same reason that I support the refugees from Palestine. No one's notions of religious or ethnic supremacy are more valid than another.

My support for Palestine is based on the same principles by which I support the Dalits in India, the Aboriginals in Australia or the native Americans in Canada or the US. We all have our corner of the world and our own problems but that should not make us mute or blind in the face of injustice. I have debated all of the above in sciforums. I even support the Jews who were subjected to oppression under Nazi Germany. But that does not givNathan Mikolowsky's grandson a free pass to repeat the oppression in Palestine.

Are you an Indian? If so, what are your nationalistic ideals? A strong India or a muslim India?

Yes I am Indian. I don't believe in nationalistic ideals. I believe in sustainable human welfare and the protection of individual basic rights for all. I hope we will eventually develop enough as human beings to stop killing people over invisible lines on the ground

 

[rcscwc]

That if in 1947, the immigrant Jews had decided their homeland was in India, and the British had donated India to the Jews, we would be the Palestinians

edit to respond to edit:



That is a valid allegation or would be, if I were not consistent in my approach. We have a parallel situation in Kashmir where post US arming and funding of the mujahideen in the 1980s, Muslim religious fundamentalists immigrated into Kashmir from Afghanistan and Pakistan and drove out the native Hindus. This is exactly what the naqba did to the Palestinians. I fully support the refugees from Kashmir for the same reason that I support the refugees from Palestine. No one's notions of religious or ethnic supremacy are more valid than another.

Don't talk iof hypothetical cases. Portugal refused to vacate Goa and in 1961 was evicted. EVICTED, mind you.

We could not be a counterparts of Palestiians. I would be in that soup if Linlithgo had accepted Jinnah's proposal of Anglo-Muslim Condminium over India, where Hindus would have next to to no rights.


As a Hindu I do not regret Partition. Today 9in undivided India, Muslims would have nizam-e-mustafa. 35-40% ENBLOCK vote bank is enough for thatl.

Good riddance.

 

[S.A.M.]

You should also know that I consider the partition to be a mistake and Jinnah a moron. You can also find that argument debated by me in sci

As a Hindu I do not regret Partition. Today 9in undivided India, Muslims would have nizam-e-mustafa. 35-40% ENBLOCK vote bank is enough for thatl.

We would not have wasted 15% of our GDP on pointless defence for 60 years. We would have a great cricket team. There would be no Kashmir issue. The Sindhis would not have lost their homeland. Rahat Kazmi would be making [much better] television serials in India. Ghulam Ali could sing anywhere without worrying about visa status etc.

 

[rcscwc]

You should also know that I consider the partition to be a mistake and Jinnah a moron. You can also find that argument debated by me in sci



We would not have wasted 15% of our GDP on pointless defence for 60 years. We would have a great cricket team. There would be no Kashmir issue. The Sindhis would not have lost their homeland. Rahat Kazmi would be making [much better] television serials in India. Ghulam Ali could sing anywhere without worrying about visa status etc.

Yes. Partition was a BIG, BIG MISTAkE, for thec muslims. Had Jinnah not pressede for it, who knows, India would be Islamic Republif of Inda!! But Jinnah aborted it. Good thing.

 

[rcscwc]

You should also know that I consider the partition to be a mistake and Jinnah a moron. You can also find that argument debated by me in sci



We would not have wasted 15% of our GDP on pointless defence for 60 years. We would have a great cricket team. There would be no Kashmir issue. The Sindhis would not have lost their homeland. Rahat Kazmi would be making [much better] television serials in India. Ghulam Ali could sing anywhere without worrying about visa status etc.

A yusuf could NOT have a shows in Pakistan. Yusuf was and is a nominal Indian.

Do you know? Sahir, poet laurete made by gbloody Nehru, migtrated tom Pakistan. Migrated into an oblivoion!! One of the sons Gandehi conveerted and migrated to Pakistan. Who is HE? Lost in darkness.

 

[Red Devil]

Most modern nations are defined in ethnic/racial terms. For example, pretty much all of Europe and the vast majority of Asia. Israel is no outlier in this sense - nothing about this would be particularly controversial if the nation in question hadn't been distributed all over the world over the previous centuries.

Europe is a definite collision of cultures hiding under the guise of Unity. The French do not like the British, the British do not like the French, it has been that way for eons. France & Germany, so long economic allies now find their people beginning to flex their anti Euro muscles. Mass movement of economic migrants is also upsetting most of western europe who are picking up the tab for the collapse of the communist bloc. Nothing would please me more than to see the UK pull out of this false brotherhood of self interest and corruption. The Euro Union is a falasy, or should I say phallacy because thats what they are in Brussels.

 

[S.A.M.]

A yusuf could NOT have a shows in Pakistan. Yusuf was and is a nominal Indian.

Do you know? Sahir, poet laurete made by gbloody Nehru, migtrated tom Pakistan. Migrated into an oblivoion!! One of the sons Gandehi conveerted and migrated to Pakistan. Who is HE? Lost in darkness.

I don't think there is any argument that Indian society has always brought out the best in Muslims. It is a pity that we have allowed that heritage to be squandered

 

[Red Devil]

This has lost me, I asked about Zionism and now I dont even understand half the posts.

 

[rcscwc]

I don't think there is any argument that Indian society has always brought out the best in Muslims. It is a pity that we have allowed that heritage to be squandered

What best? Plundering by Ghazanvi? And enslavement ofc Indians by him? demolition of their temples? You know what Hindu Kush means. Killer of Hindus, driven to Afghanistan like animals? Heritage of beheading of Guru Teg Bahadur? Heritge of genocides of 1947?

 

[S.A.M.]

This has lost me, I asked about Zionism and now I dont even understand half the posts.

What would you like to know?

Israel is established as a state in over 75% of historic Palestine. This is after the 1967 war, before which the UN gave 56% of historic Palestine to immigrant Jews for a Jewish state.

The rest, 25% of Palestine is occupied by Israel. It consists of the west bank where Israel is building Jewish only settlemets, Gaza, where all the unwanted Palestinians are dumped since the nakba [and kept on a "diet" by Israel] and East Jerusalem which according to Jewish mythology is, along with West Jerusalem "the eternal capital" of the Jews. To this end, Palestinian homes are demolished and they are evicted as squatters from East Jerusalem to make way for Jewish only settlements. The state of Israel pretends to work for a two state solution, because it does not want to absorb the Palestinians who live in occupied Palestine, let alone the refugees who live in other parts of the world. Presently Palestinians within Israel constitute 20% of the state. If the OPT Palestinians were absorbed they would be 50% of the population. [Jewish settlers in the OPT are considered as citizens of Israel even though Palestinians are not].

However, even though the two state solution which Israel is allegedly working towards is supposed to consist of the West Bank and Gaza [and East Jerusalem] the fact that the west bank holds all the water aquifers that the Israelis need and use and Gaza has offshore natural gas which the Israelis want, means that they do not really want to give up that land.

In my opinion, the two state solution is over. The Jewish settlers who now number 500,000 and daily growing, will never leave the west bank. So the only rational choice is a one state solution with equal civil rights for all.

However, since that would alter the "Jewish" character of the state, it is the least desirable position for the majority of Israelis. They prefer to keep Israel Jewish and hope that the Palestinians will disappear

This is Zionism.

You know what Hindu Kush means. Killer of Hindus, driven to Afghanistan like animals?

Would you like to start a separate topic on Indian history? I have already discussed the etymology of Hindu Kush here:

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2377168&postcount=102

 

[Pinwheel]

[they] hope that the Palestinians will disappear.

Theres a lot of them to dissappear!

 

[S.A.M.]

There are a lot of ways to get them to:

As Saeed Bannoura of the International Middle East Media Center reports, the Israeli government imposed a deliberate policy:

“in which the dietary needs for the population of Gaza are chillingly calculated, and the amounts of food let in by the Israeli government measured to remain just enough to keep the population alive at a near-starvation level. This documents the statement made by a number of Israeli officials that they are ‘putting the people of Gaza on a diet’.” (Saeed Bannoura, ‘Israeli government documents show deliberate policy to keep Gazans at near-starvation levels’, International Middle East Media Center, November 6, 2010 21:32; http://www.imemc.org/article/59843)

I think most Israelis hope they will get fed up and leave

 

[rcscwc]

SAM, I said I don't care about Palestine. Period. It is not a Hindu or Indian topic or interest. Period. An average Hindu does not know what Zion is or Zionism is. Hec understands what jihad is: Bomb blasts like in Varanasi yesterday.

 

[GeoffP]

Even if Hindus in India convert to Islam, that is not the same as all the Muslims in the world moving to India because of some mythological basis.

How about moving to Palestine and plowing the Temple under to set up a mosque on the basis of some mythological camel-ride? Your arguments on this matter are childish; you have not understood the narrative of the oppression of the Jewish people in the West and East - and before you embark on your usual journey of misread bullshit, tell me what a dhimmi is.

Muslims in Russia are Russians, Christians in Russia are Russians, but Jews in Russia are a nation of Jews? Why?

Actually, this is a broad supposition. Many Muslims consider themselves Muslims first and everything else second. You can't sit there and pretend that the Islamic in "Islamic Republic" is meaningless, with the deliberate collusion of religion and state in those nations.

 

[S.A.M.]

SAM, I said I don't care about Palestine. Period. It is not a Hindu or Indian topic or interest. Period. An average Hindu does not know what Zion is or Zionism is. Hec understands what jihad is: Bomb blasts like in Varanasi yesterday.

Hmm then why are you posting in this thread?

 

[GeoffP]

Because of another common narrative, which he fully understands.