KennyJC said:
KennyJC said:
Kenny? why are you saying I misquoted you, these are your words here? You said "I think atheists are better than the religious because......" where did I misquote you?
ZERO Tolerance - religious V non religious
- Thread starter Theoryofrelativity
- Start date
Kenny? why are you saying I misquoted you, these are your words here? You said "I think atheists are better than the religious because......" where did I misquote you?
Yes, and notice how that line has quotes in it. This was in reply to this:
Which I think is half correct. Theists believe they are special (afterall they are going to heaven aren't they?) Atheists have to put up with theists thinking they are special. Atheists do not think they are special that is the point. As for atheism being better or working better, I have provided evidence that does say that maybe atheism is better for society as a whole. Had the statistics been the other way around and said that where religion is tends to be where the best societies are, then I would hold up my hands and admit that religion is better for society than atheism... but it isn't.
Which I think is half correct. Theists believe they are special (afterall they are going to heaven aren't they?) Atheists have to put up with theists thinking they are special. Atheists do not think they are special that is the point. As for atheism being better or working better, I have provided evidence that does say that maybe atheism is better for society as a whole. Had the statistics been the other way around and said that where religion is tends to be where the best societies are, then I would hold up my hands and admit that religion is better for society than atheism... but it isn't.
You missed the point of my story entirely. I didn't explain it very thoroughly because i was depending on people knowing about the reasons theists might have for pretending they are special.Theoryofrelativity said:lol, deary me, ok, so what we have is here a good dog does not a good atheist make? you may have to explain that a bit more
meanwhile you are telling me that you as a theist are "smarter and more rational than most atheists" Do you know most atheists? lol
you are special coley, but I feel it is not your theism that makes it so.......
The theist has no right for pride that they are cleaned up after, they are not better "dogs", so no, the theist is not special.
The athiest is also not categorically special, due to their supposed critical thinking and "intelligence". This is shown by the basic reality that my ratiocinative functions are exercised more than most atheists.
And my intelligence, especially as ill-used and seldom employed as it is, or some athiests' ditto the ill-used and seldom employed, doesn't make me, or them, any better than anyone who is mentally deficient either.
KennyJC said:
oh so you were quoting me.....well re statistics as I said before, they are VERY easy to manipulate, you can get them to say anything you want.
apologies to kenny everyone! he doesn't believe atheists are better people afterall, just that they make better societies...is that correct?
well it take men to make up societies, so its still the same thing! Isn't it?
perhaps large societies would have never been established without religion, that is quite possible you know.KennyJC said:
I'm not saying large societies have done any better than letting us run around naked in the forest (garden of eden?) would have.
Qualitative better and worse between atheist and theist is down to opinion via perception, nothing more- you have to make a lot of assumptions about how things could have, might have, would have been.
cole grey said:
you know I really must complain about the lack of 'I'm not worthy..bowing' smiley!
but what you comparing it with.....?KennyJC said:
actually what's happened in last 500 years and post 'Enlightenment' has been a complete and utter disaster. the mechanization of the 'human' mind--ie., a mechanized mindset which imposes itself on everyone else and on Nature, and we are reaping the evil of it, and generations o come will UNLESS 'we' wake up out of it!
so, what? am i being special now cause i am seeing thru your 'religion vs atheists game, and vice versa?
let me answer this way. if wees talking Judeo Christian indotrination, whats it say in yo creation myth? to have 'dominion' over Nature. what this myth does/...........
it doesn't 'go away' when you say 'i am athiest'...it goes Unconscious! hence the reason the same shit gong ON. only it is mechanized-dominion, andmaterialistic science is 'god'.
This tells me you have not read the article. It is easy to chart the most atheistic countries in the world, perhaps not 100% accurately but if you look at what the survey say's is the top 50 atheistic countries in the world - I don't think anyone could argue that they do not have high levels of atheism.
Example: The survey says the USA has between 3 to 9% atheism. Would you argue with that? No.
duendy said:
Indeed! Which brings me back to, what were we doing before religion? Running about naked, having orgies, having incestuous sex, killing, raping pillaging, ok now I know this sounds like America, but seriosuly what were we doing?
You cannot take a few countries (kenny) and say this is the reason for their civilised ways becuase atheism is predominant, there could be MANY other reasons!
Obviously there are other factors. Japan and spain, for example were incredibly religious at times in their history - perhaps they are reaping the benefits of having consolidated power structure in the past as opposed to what Kennyjc is saying.Theoryofrelativity said:
Also, some of those countires are horrible places to live, from what I have heard.
Ask a russian who lives in the U.S. whether they want to move back. I know a few of them, and those people I know would literally laugh at you.
There are many, many other factors to why a regional society prospers and fades.
Kenny's argument reminds me of christians who say Rome fell because of their lack of stricter morals.
Edit - sorry, that post was confusing because i was responding to kenny jc, using a jumping off point from what t.o.r said, not to t.o.r., so i fixed it.
Why the trend though? I think it has a lot to do with the fact that religious countries are not very tolerant... And that goes a long long way towards preventing a free society. Atheism is on the other hand very tolerant and all religions are free to practice their faith in countries with high amounts of atheism. I would not use communist countries in this argument, as we are talking about organic atheism here, and not atheism that is forced.
Theoryofrelativity said:
Are you saying that before religion or without religion normal human behaviour is
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DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
I am Muslim and personally would like it if the entire world became Muslim because I believe Islam is the correct way. I believe that believing in Islam and being a good person is a guarantee of Paradise.
I believe that even those who aren't Muslim and are still good people will be compensated for their good works some way as is stated in the Quran. Allah swt can give Paradise to anyone He wishes. It's not humans who decide who goes where, its Allah swt. Instead of damning or cursing others, we should just accept our own beliefs and follow what we ourselves believe to the end.
Peace.
I believe that even those who aren't Muslim and are still good people will be compensated for their good works some way as is stated in the Quran. Allah swt can give Paradise to anyone He wishes. It's not humans who decide who goes where, its Allah swt. Instead of damning or cursing others, we should just accept our own beliefs and follow what we ourselves believe to the end.
Peace.
DiamondHearts said:
respect
well you are BOUND...to believe that aren't you? seeing you have been indoctrinated in Islam, you assume everyone should be Muslim, and under 'sumbimssion' to your 'God'. not me mate!DiamondHearts said:
If pnly you patriarchal religionists knew. Paradise is right here! NOT some conceptual heaven with the '7o virgins' awaiting. that is conjecture. you dont KNOWthat. a book/someone has told you this---and told you and told you since , probably, you were small?or even since conversion to Islam. and you've bought it. so now youu dream of it. it is your destination, and goal and gives you a sense of purpose
Meanwhile, you are A C T U A L L Y here. aren't you?this is not conjecture. you are living and breating nd eating etc here. And what patriarchal religions, and mindsets have DONE is create a MISERY being here. a HELL!...is it then any wonder some people dream of 'paradise' away from what they have made of it, and what hasbeen IMPOSED on them via such Nature-negative beliefs. But dreaming wont take away this hell. Oly waking up out of your divisiveness will!
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
duendy said:
I understand where you are coming from. I was just stating what I believe. I acknowledge that not all people will believe in Islam that is why I said I believe that Allah swt is capable of giving rewards for even those who aren't Muslim but still do good. I said instead of insulting ot cursing other people or trying to convert them, people should just listen. If they agree with a concept of belief, then follow it and see if you believe it.
Because we believe in a paradise and hell, does not mean we believe we should neglect this life. In Islamic belief this is completely wrong, Allah swt says if we work good and are righteous, He will give us good in this world and the afterlife. Also Allah swt says those who work for this life only, will be given this life, those who work for only afterlife will be given only afterlife, however those who work for this life and after life, will be given both. All glory be to Allah swt.
I agree, the life of this world is important. I also believe however life in after life is also important.
I would not believe in an afterlife if I did not actually believe Islam. Personally, I believe Islam to be the perfect religion and the complete truth, and this is why I believe the Quran's word of afterlife.
Best of luck to you.
Peace.
DiamondHearts said:
Was watching a documentary i had taped last night. Was about Gay Muslims.
All but two of the gay muslims featured chose to not have their identities shown. So we saw feet, backs, blurred images, and hands.
Oly one of the peoples parents agreed to appear---the ones who KNEW that it. And we saw them sat on a couch, but only their feet!
I was thinking---how sad. That people are So fearful of showing themselves. MADE to feel So ashamed of being what they are.
Is that not Islam making them feel like that? What do you say?
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
duendy, I have discussed this topic in thread http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=53336&page=2&pp=20
If you want to discuss it, please read my posts and post there. i will respond to you there. lets allow these people have their athiest, antitheist argument.
Peace.
If you want to discuss it, please read my posts and post there. i will respond to you there. lets allow these people have their athiest, antitheist argument.
Peace.
Personally I would say that nothing humans participate in will be perfect. Religion is no exception, so no on the islam=perfect religion thing. Perhaps the true ideals of that religion are perfect but they are obviously getting warped by some hateful people sometimes.DiamondHearts said:
DiamondHearts said:
Fortunately, that will never happen.
As people around the world become more educated, they understand that religion is based on myths and that certain religions, like Islam, are more dangerous to mankind than many other concepts or ideals.
Hence, we have atheism flourishing around the world, that is of course, where people actually have the freedom to make such a choice.
And that may be the one thing that Muslims, in their quest to spread Islam, won't take into consideration, and that is that those people who don't have the freedom to make choices would rather die than commit to Islam.
And that will be Islams downfall and eventual erradication.
That will be the future, Diamondhearts, whether you are willing to accept it or not.