John Skilling's missing analysis and the Journal for 9/11 studies site, Round 3
This post is in response to the 1st part of shaman_'s
post 1166 in this thread.
scott3x said:
No, I just don't have an encyclopedic memory. I now understand what you're saying, after backtracking 6 posts. Anyway, what evidence does Leslie have that the jet fuel wasn't taken into consideration?
His word. The opposing comments of the two is something of a stalemate. However as I have said a couple of times, structures have failed before when tested with conditions that they were supposedly designed for. It doesn’t mean it can’t happen.
I agree. However, there has been a lot of analysis of the building's structure -after- the event as well. To draw an analogy, it's like someone saying that the Titanic was sunk by the -top- of the iceberg, when anyone who has done enough research knows that the bottom part was the real damage dealer.
shaman_ said:
scott3x said:
Even NIST doesn't say that. Instead, it says that it couldn't be found. Funny how all this evidence that might contradict the official story either gets destroyed or goes missing, don't you think?
”All this evidence” ?
Yes, all the evidence that I've presented. I understand that you don't yet see it as evidence. Give it time
shaman_ said:
You are referring to one analysis which another designer claims doesn’t even take into account the fuel, and even if it did show up it may be incorrect.
Fortunately, many more analysis have been done which clearly show that the building could have withstood the impact, the jet fuel and the ensuing fires.
shaman_ said:
As I said, structures have collapsed before when tested by conditions that they were supposedly designed for. You are getting desperate if you think a missing analysis is the proof of a conspiracy.
When did I say it was proof of a conspiracy? I just noted how it seemed convenient for the official story that the analysis has apparently gone missing.
shaman_ said:
scott3x said:
shaman_ said:
Perhaps they were flawed and he threw them out.
Well, -that's- certainly a view that the official story would like...
It is just speculation like yours.
Alright, I admit this line of discussion isn't getting us anywhere.
shaman_ said:
scott3x said:
No one has denied that Skilling actually did an analysis on the effect a fully loaded 707 would have on one of the twin towers (except you?).
I was making a point about our baseless speculation. When you read my more recent responses you will see that I think that there was some sort of analysis done.
Ok.
shaman_ said:
scott3x said:
For whatever reason, the analysis has apparently gone missing. There is also no evidence that Leslie actually knew whether or not Skilling had taken the jet fuel into account other then his word. Has he even claimed to have -seen- the analysis?
Don’t know.
Ok.
shaman_ said:
scott3x said:
Look, you can pigeonhole me as a conspiracist all you want, but at some point in time, I think you may do well to realize that if 9/11 -was- an inside job, the first thing the people in on it would want to do would be to cover their tracks. So when there's evidence that steel was destroyed prematurely
Steel was at the site for six months.Anyone could have grabbed a piece.
Dream on
. I suggest you read 9/11 Research's excellent article on the subject, WTC Steel Removal. Let's take a look at just how restricted access was to Ground Zero:
FEMA's BPAT, who wrote the WTC Building Performance Study, were not given access to Ground Zero. Apparently, they were not even allowed to collect steel samples from the salvage yards. According to Appendix D of the Study:
Collection and storage of steel members from the WTC site was not part of the BPS Team efforts sponsored by FEMA and the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE).
shaman_ said:
The steel at the site was investigated and showed signs of high temperatures.
Not much of it. But some of it yes. Some apparently showed signs of evaporation/vaporization, something that a bit of jet fuel and office furniture could never have accomplished. Jonathan Barnett, a lead investigator, seems to imply that this was a mistake. The real question is, what caused him to change his mind?
shaman_ said:
If you were covering your tracks you would not take down the towers in such a manner that the conspiracy theorists claim. You would have evidence lying there for months which anyone could take.
I think you meant to add a 'not' in there. Anyway, apparently 250 tons of the steel was stolen by September 29, 2001, allegedly by one of the New York's Mafia families. I'm not sure that's the truth, but you may want to look at the
article in the Daily Telegraph concerning the matter. If the site is busy, it's also
archived on 9/11 Research.
shaman_ said:
If you were really trying to cover your tracks you would just fly planes into the damn buildings without putting bombs or incendiaries in the buildings.
The death toll wouldn't have been as high that way. I'm personally still interested in knowing who was telling the people in the towers to remain in their offices. It certainly elevated the death toll.
shaman_ said:
scott3x said:
and that analysis that looks as though it would have contradicted the official story's account of events dissapears, it's quite reasonable to wonder if perhaps a cover up is indeed taking place.
When you take all the evidence into account, and actually assess the claims made by the 911 conspiracy theorists then no it isn’t reasonable to think there is a conspiracy.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.
shaman_ said:
Your only source of information is conspiracy sites Scott
No, it's not. While it's true that I rely heavily on sites that support alternate theories to the officially sanctioned ones concerning what happened on 9/11, it's also true that these sites and I have referenced mainstream publications as well.
shaman_ said:
and you deeply believe them like a religion even when the flaws have been pointed out.
I have yet to see you bring up any evidence to support this claim.
shaman_ said:
Hey you thought that a missile hit the pentagon and only abandoned that to jump on the absurd flyover theory. Your conclusions are rarely ‘reasonable’
There is apparently little if any evidence that the pentagon was hit by a missile. However, I'm certainly not the only person who thought that this may well have been the case. The truth is apparently even worse; that explosives were planted -in- the building. The opportunity was certainly there; extensive renovations had been done precisely where the alleged plane crashed; who's to say that a few of the people allegedly renovating weren't (also) doing something else.
shaman_ said:
scott3x said:
Sigh. I spent a few minutes on the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth and found a structural engineer who firmly believes that the collapses were controlled demolitions:
http://www.ae911truth.org/profile.php?uid=995879
Lets look at his personal statement[;]
Buildings collapsed all by "controlled demolition" methods. Fire and impact were insignificant in all three buildings. Impossible for the three to collapse at free-fall speed. Laws of physiscs were not suspended on 9/11, unless proven otherwise.
Wow that poorly informed ramble completely trumps the peer reviewed papers by the engineers who were at the site!
shaman_, you're not a structural engineer, are you? Perhaps you might do well to consider the possibility that he's right.
shaman_ said:
scott3x said:
I bet I could find a few more. Personally I think the whole exercise is rather pointless and find that we should be spending more time focusing on the arguments of the people involved, not the credentials.
That’s fine Scott but you said, “sites such as the peer reviewed "The Journal for 9/11 studies"”. Understand that their ‘peer review’ is not by people most qualified to do so.
That's where you and I may need to agree to disagree again...