Still on page 20...
So am I
Still on page 20...
The arguments on his Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth web site aren't based upon how many firemen were able to put out the WTC 7 fires. Here are the points made for WTC 7 (generally similar to the twin tower collapses, but they do differ a bit):
********************************
As your own eyes witness — WTC Building #7 (a 47-story high-rise not hit by an airplane) exhibits all the characteristics of a classic controlled demolition with explosives: (and some non-standard characteristics)
1. Rapid onset of “collapse”
Rapid? The building was burning for most of the day before it collapsed.
.. and I am saying that is not correct. The information I have regarding the towers states that the floors were concrete but it was the steel box columns providing the support in the core. There was no support provided by any concrete walls.This post is in response to the 2nd part of shaman_'s post 393 from this thread.
The Structure of the World Trade Center, Round 1
I agree. So does 911review.org, even including a diagram of this belief and stating that it is mistaken. It states the reverse; that the core columns reinforced the concrete core.
The framing of the building does not exclude the cores.To be sure. You are aware that the 9/11 research article in question was referring to the frames of the buildings, not the cores, right?
What are you talking about? The Madrid Tower had steel-reinforced concrete while the WTC had steel with fireproofing. The concrete, which is extremely fire resistant, is the reason the Madrid Tower stayed up.And that a steel frame is much stronger and more resistant to fire than a (lightly) steel reinforced frame?
Weak because it was steel? While the core was concrete?Ok, the 911review.org article in question is stating that the inner core, which bore 20% of the load, was surrounded by the interior steel core columns, which bore 30% of the load. The remaining 50% of the load was borne by the perimeter columns. If you disagree with any of this, then I can certainly attempt to seek more confirmation as at present, the only source I have for those precise distributions is the above linked article from 911review.org (not to be confused with 911review.com, an official story supporter).
9/11 Research elaborates:
******************
"The Twin Towers and Building 7 were both 100% steel-framed, with large wide-flange columns and box columns, some measuring over four feet wide and fabricated of steel up to five inches thick... In contrast to the WTC Towers, the Windsor building was framed primarily in steel-reinforced concrete, with columns of concrete reinforced by thin sections of rebar. 4 The concrete pillars in the Windsor building are clearly visible in the photographs showing the intact core exposed by the collapsed facade. The very light construction of the perimeter, described below, makes it clear that the core was the main load-bearing component of the building."
******************
Only the Windsor Tower's relatively weak perimeter collapsed; the core remained intact.
It’s the second paragraph.Can you quote the part where it discusses the mistake(s?) NIST made? Don't want to have to read through the whole thing .
From what I have read Scott there is no distinction to be made. The steel columns were providing all the support for the core.Yes. Apparently they believe that the core bore more of the load then the article in 911review.org believed. Still, the difference isn't -that- large. They believe it was 63% and they seem to make no distinction between the core and the steel core columns surrounding it
“(combined the 911review.org article believe they supported 50% of the load). Since they believe that the core supported 63% of the load, naturally the 100% steel framed perimeter could have only supported the remaining 37%. I would be very interested in finding out why there is a discrepancy between these 2 articles and will try to find why this is but I find it comforting that the discrepancy isn't -that- large.
I have certainly not seen any evidence of this. Could you please point out where my 'own site' (9/11 research? or 911review.org?) said so?
Your Madrid Tower article makes no mention of a concrete core at all.Except for the one I brought up from 911review.org. I can certainly agree that the whole matter could use further investigation and am very interested in seeing where you believe my 'own site' says that the concrete core wasn't reinforced by steel columns.
This is suppose to pass for logic?
:roflmao:
Logic is based on physics not words. Words are just symbols that are supposed to have something to do with reality but often they do not. Like that nonsense of Europe being a continent when there is no water separating it from Asia.
It is obvious from the videos that WTC 1 & 2 were destroyed in a different manner than WTC 7. But we have all these morons not demanding to know the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on every level of the towers. The Empire State Building was completed 70 years earlier so this ain't rocket science. THE LOGIC IS OBVIOUS except to people not capable of it.
How do you compute the conservation of momentum of a supposed gravitational collapse from the top without knowing the distribution of mass through the structure? I know, YOU JUST BELIEVE, and then you don't need data to do anything. The LOGIC of not thinking.
psik
The arguments on his Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth web site aren't based upon how many firemen were able to put out the WTC 7 fires. Here are the points made for WTC 7 (generally similar to the twin tower collapses, but they do differ a bit):
********************************
As your own eyes witness — WTC Building #7 (a 47-story high-rise not hit by an airplane) exhibits all the characteristics of a classic controlled demolition with explosives: (and some non-standard characteristics)
...2. Sounds of explosions at ground floor - a full second prior to collapse
Those were cracks. Not explosions. Not to mention if it was explosions you would have seen dust and windows being blown out.
3. Symmetrical “collapse” – through the path of greatest resistance – at nearly free-fall speed — the columns gave no resistance
Actually, in large building like WTC1&2 and 7 and symmetrical collapse is the path of least resistance. These building are designed to allow gravity to keep them stable in high winds. the building falling sideway would be working against gravity for half the building. Meaning an asymmetrical collapse would need massive amounts of energy acting on the outside of the building to counteract that surpass the weight of the building.
4. “Collapses” into its own footprint – with the steel skeleton broken up for shipment
Actually that is not too hard to believe given we have NEVER seen such a large building collapse in any other fashion. We implode building becuase it is the easiet thing to do, not to help with cleanup.
5. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds
the dust clouds were actually pretty insignificant and were not burning all that much more than a normal office fire.
6. Tons of molten metal found by CDI (Demolition Contractor).
Which would coincide with a day long fight with the office fire.
A controlled demolition would not have had molten metals.
8. FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranular melting on structural steel samples
Probably from the rust pockets that coincidently form Thermite.
9. Expert corroboration from the top European Controlled Demolition professional
Funny, how they don't have as many really big building they have delat with as American Demolitions experts.
10. Fore-knowledge of “collapse” by media, NYPD, FDNY
Doesn't take a genius to know that a rapidly burning building might come down. Especially when you have had no luck fighting the fire.
1. Slow onset with large visible deformations
2. Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fires)
And what if you have an almost even even level of damage right to left and are working with a building type that is designed to collapse exactly one way.
3. Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel
Excuse me but a few hundred degrees is all that is needed to soften steels. Or worse make it expand an pop rivets.
4. High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never “collapsed”.
You have not proved that any other building had larger fires, when in some reports half the interior of the building was engulfed.
You have not had hotter as we don't tend to measure fire temeprature while fighting. And you don't have longer as there was little supression systems in WTC7 thanks to it being close to being abandoned anyways. Fires that were fought for longer had to contend with active fire supression so were not nearly as intense.
scott3x said:Irrelevant.
It’s not his field of expertise. There are those more experienced and qualified to speak on the matter than he is. Just accept it and stop arguing the point.
scott3x said:Not initially, no. He has since became an expert on it, however.
Your idea of an expert is anyone who does a bit of reading.
shaman_ said:.scott3x said:He is now an expert in more then just muon catalyzed fusion.
Hey he might be a start trek expert as well but his field of expertise is cold fusion, not structural engineering or the chemistry of building materials. Just agree and move on.
I'm not pretending anything.
I’ll move on. It gets tiresome playing your games.
scott3x said:shaman_ said:...and then ask me “why do you think Jones is a bad scientist”, expecting me to summarize the whole thing over again. I’m not going to summarise everything over again every time you are trying to dodge an issue.
Just link to where you've countered my argument as I have in the past when you or someone else have repeated a claim I've already countered.
What argument? You were asking me to summarize why I thought Jones was not following a strict methodology.
With Headspin's help, I now see why I was confused. I believe what you wanted to say is if he determined if his claims were falsifiable.
No what I said was correct scott.
scott3x said:My own claim still stands- regardless of what he did or did not do in order to ascertain if his claims were falsifiable, there is a whole -army- of official story proponents who have tried to ascertain that his claims were unmerited and they have not yet been able to do it.
His claims have been taken apart, debunked and ridiculed but the conspiracy theorists move on refusing to see any problems.
scott3x said:shaman_ said:scott3x said:My point is that Steven Jones isn't the only person who can determine whether or not thermite was used; it's been done in investigations in the past where thermite arson is suspected. I'd advise you take a look at the clip I linked to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGudMVKswVM&feature=related
So no he can’t demonstrate that the spheres aren’t part of the clean up or the construction…
In regards to the cleanup, Arabesque, in his article "“Thermite Hypothesis” versus “Controlled Demolition Hypothesis”: a response to “The Scientific Method Applied to the Thermite Hypothesis” ", pointed out these points:
1. Thermite is extremely dangerous; it cuts through steel like “a hot knife through butter.”
2. They were trying to find survivors; any cleanup was secondary to finding the victims.
3. Steven Jones has answered this question repeatedly in his
presentations. It appears that the authors have ignored this fact.18
… and the answer is?
scott3x said:Couldn't find one in my brief search. Will keep my eyes open. However, you may have noticed that no official body is denying that thermite arson is possible.
You said “and thermite arson is not unheard of.” . Find me a case. By ‘not unheard of’ do you mean that you heard a conspiracy theorist mention it once?
Leslie RobertsonThis post is in response to the 3rd part of shaman_'s post 393 in this thread.
Steven Jones debunks some official story claims
Indeed I must first apologize for something- I was referring to Steven Jones debunking one of the aforementioned peer reviewed documents as well as some information from NIST, not debunking Abstaneh specifically.
With that in mind, here's an excerpt from the above linked paper:
****************************
My reasons for advancing the explosive-demolition hypothesis while challenging the “official” fire-caused collapse hypothesis are these:
1..2..3..etc..
11. One attendee to the BYU Seminar on 9-11 anomalies suggested I review the paper by Bazant and Zhou, which I did. Quoting:
The 110-story towers of the World Trade Center were designed to withstand as a whole the forces caused by a horizontal impact of a large commercial aircraft. So why did a total collapse occur? (Bazant and Zhou, 2002, p. 2.)
But, as demonstrated, office materials can.Correct — jet collisions did not cause collapses — we can agree on that. MIT’s Thomas Eager also concurs “because the number of columns lost on the initial impact was not large and the loads were shifted to remaining columns in this highly redundant structure” (Eager and Musso, 2001).
We continue with Bazant & Zhou:
The conflagration, caused by the aircraft fuel spilled into the structure, causes the steel of the columns to be exposed to sustained temperatures apparently exceeding 800C… (Bazant and Zhou, 2002, p. 2.)
But here we note from the recent NIST report that: “The initial jet fuel fires themselves lasted at most a few minutes” and office material fires would burn out within about 20 minutes in a given location. (NIST, 2005; p. 179, emphasis added.) Certainly jet fuel burning was not enough to raise steel to sustained temperatures above 800C.
Describing it as all the columns bucking at the same time can give the impression of something unnatural happening. It doesn't quite work like that. There was clear weakening of the support columns leading up to the collapse. Floors were sagging and pulling on the perimeter columns. This is evidence that the conspiracy theorists are unable to account for. When the supports were sufficiently weakened so that a collapse started the remaining ones were not able to hold the extra load so they fail as well. So they didn't fail at exactly the same time.But we continue:
Once more than half of the columns in the critical floor.. suffer buckling (stage 3), the weight of the upper part of the structure above this floor can no longer be supported, and so the upper part starts falling down onto the lower part below…”(Bazant and Zhou, 2002, p. 2.)
Bazant & Zhou do not explain how “more than half of the columns in the critical floor [can] suffer buckling” at the same time to precipitate the complete and nearly symmetrical collapse observed.
Well that’s compelling.There were 47 huge steel core columns in each Tower, and 24 such support columns in WTC 7 (NIST 2005; NISTb, 2005).
The WTC towers were solidly constructed with 47 steel core columns and 240 perimeter steel beams. 287 steel-columns total. Many doubt that random fires/damage could cause them to collapse straight down (official theory), and suspect explosives.
Not according to the office tests performed by NIST.Steel-frame: Huge core (left), enormous Heat Sink. Notice workers standing on floor pan which is firmly attached to the interconnected core columns.
They do NOT explain how steel-column temperatures above 800oC were achieved near-simultaneously due to burning office materials. NIST notes that office materials in an area burn for about 15-20 minutes, then are consumed away (NIST, 2005, pp. 117, 179). This is evidently not long enough to raise steel column temperatures above 800oC
Oh right but secretly loading up buildings with invisible explosives on every level of a building which is going to be hit by planes, and blowing up a building which isn’t going to be hit by planes for the sake of getting support for a war, yeah that doesn’t strain credibility. What a watertight conspiracy!as required in the Bazant & Zhou model, given the enormous heat sinks of the structures. And to have three buildings completely collapse due to this unlikely mechanism on the same day strains credulity.
Oh god the panels again. Does the whole truth movement rely on taking evidence out of context and misrepresenting it? NIST made it clear that very few of those samples were from the impact floors. That is not the only evidence of the temperatures reached and to try and present it as so is disingenuous. But this is what I have come to expect.Moreover, the Final NIST report on the Towers admits:
Of the more than 170 areas examined on 16 perimeter column panels, only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250ºC… Only two core column specimens had sufficient paint remaining to make such an analysis, and their temperatures did not reach 250 ºC. … Using metallographic analysis, NIST determined that there was no evidence that any of the samples had reached temperatures above 600 ºC. (NIST, 2005, pp. 176-177; emphasis added.)
… and… ?As for WTC 7, Bazant & Zhou say little but mention in a separate “addendum” that burning natural gas might have been a source of the needed heat (Bazant and Zhou, March 2002, p. 370). The FEMA report (FEMA, 2002) addresses this issue:
Early news reports had indicated that a high pressure, 24-inch gas main was located in the vicinity of the building [WTC 7]; however, this proved not to be true.” (FEMA, 2002, chapter 5; emphasis added)
So this is the master debunking the qualified structural engineers? Your conspiracy is in a pitiful state scott.And that was just point 11; he's got 15, a conclusion and an afterword as well.
Wow all these years and all he can get is a little known journal which apparently required nothing more than a fee for publication. Isn’t that a bit strange.Freedom of the presses belongs to those who own them
This post is in response to the 4th part of shaman_'s post 393 in this thread.
There is always the paper that he and some other 9/11 truth notables published,
No I substantiated mine. You did not.Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction in The Open Civil Engineering Journal
Unsubstantiated rumours abound...
No it doesn’t. Do you have a comprehension problem?John Skilling's 'missing' analysis and the Journal for 9/11 studies site
This post is in response to the 5th part of shaman_'s post 393 in this thread.
The answer to that is below. It's the answer to your question.
Perhaps they never existed. Perhaps they were flawed and he threw them out. My speculation here is as worthless as yours. You have no evidence to back the claim up.The -real- question is, how did these documents become 'missing'?
I recognise conspiracy theorists who, when confronted with the usual total lack of evidence, actually take that as evidence as well! Evidence of a conspiracy! Lol.Perhaps we'll never know for sure, but surely you recognize that the U.S. government has a history of 'dissapearing' inconvenient truths/.
The articles at journalof911studies are 'peer reviewed' by unqualified people like David Ray Griffin, Ryan and Jones. They can’t get structural engineers to support their work.Some people have since done an analysis that backs the official story. Of the documents that I have seen, however, sites such as the peer reviewed "The Journal for 9/11 studies" and others have handily debunked their arguments.
.. and I did not contest that and I thought we had moved on. Are you that desperate for argument points that need bring up where I was wrong five pages ago? It’s not a critical point at all. I fully expect you to bring it up in another ten pages when you are struggling.The cruise speeds of the 707 vs. the 767 and what many experts say about the idea of jet initiated fires taking down the WTC buildings.
This post is in response to the 5th part of shaman_'s post 393 in this thread.
You're right. However, back in post 324, you -did- say this:
"[The twin towers] were designed to withstand impact from the fastest plane at that time which was slower than the 767s."
The truth of the matter, however, is that the cruising speed of the 707 is 77 mph faster then that of a 707, as I made clear in post 331.
.
I’ll bring that up again in five pages if I run out of things to say.You're right, missed the fog bit.
Experts? The people who are experts in relevant fields like structural engineering overwhelmingly support the official story.No one has said that it was impossible to bring down the WTC buildings. However, many experts disagree that the WTC buildings could have been brought down by plane crash initiated fires.
scott3x said:shaman_ said:scott3x said:I don't mean in the final seconds before they fell down- i mean -way- before they fell down.
So do I.
Surely you're not going to say the jet fuel managed to do all this?
Jet fuel, elevators and other debris falling, transformers or other electrical gear exploding, the other tower being struck etc. Did you expect it to be silent?
I admit that at times I get frustrated with official story believers and at times it may show a little. However, as you may know, I think we should refrain from using base insults (such as 'moron') because, in my view, it just lowers the level of discussion.
I understand your point and I did not call any specific person a moron.
I said a lot of "m-word" were not demanding to know about the steel and concrete.
So that must include a lot of people with advanced degrees from engineering schools that should know better.
psik
Ten years ago (when i was a professional engineer) we were working with one single large steel beam. What we were doing was trying to make this beam do what it didnt want to do, big heavy beam like you would find in sky scrapers and when this beam let go it was like an explosion. Broke chains and the force was incredible. Buy yeah it sounded like an explosion.
Does BOOM sound like an explosion? How about i say KABOOOOM if we are going to fixate on descriptive words.
After all take a look at this quote you posted:
Jason Charles -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.):
...
North Tower:
We start walking back there and then I heard a ground level explosion and I'm like holy s___, and then you heard that twisting metal wreckage again. Then I said s___ and everybody started running and I started running behind them, and we get to the door.
*Actually that was a few years before i had the title of Engineer but we were working under the supervision of an engineer an were working on turbines the size of a small house.
scott3x said:Please. Has anyone -ever- doubted that the titanic was sunk by anything other then an iceburg?
It was stupid baseless speculation. As was yours regarding thermite at the Madrid Tower.
shaman_ said:scott3x said:I haven't heard anyone arguing that an iceburg couldn't have sunk the titanic. As to the Windsor tower in madrid, there does seem to be some who believe that arson may have been involved. If so, it's possible that thermite may have been part of that arson. No one to my knowledge has claimed this and certainly no one has claimed that thermate was involved, but I don't like ruling out possibilities without an adequate investigation.
Your unsubstantiated speculation is worthless.
shaman_ said:scott3x said:Which is why I believe that questioning whether the Windsor tower was analyzed for arson and even thermite arson are valid questions.
Until you are to demonstrate that thermite was involved, or really that anyone has ever used thermite for arson, you are pretty much in a land of make believe there.
But let's not ignore the other parallel there. You are claiming that one of the designers claimed the tower would not collapse after an impact from a plane. Perhaps he did, that doesn’t mean it’s a conspiracy if it happens. The titanic was supposed to be unsinkable. It sank.
shaman_ said:scott3x said:The only towers that I know that have suffered even partial collapse are the windsor tower and the WTC towers. The WTC towers were 100% steel framed, which would suggest that fires shouldn't have made them collapse at all if a jet and the ensuing relatively low level isolated fires were supposedly the only problem for each tower, and yet they collapsed completely.
Riddled with mistakes and you know it.
As was demonstrated with the Madrid tower, the steel supports were part of the problem with the WTC.
Had it the concrete framing the Madrid tower had it may have stayed up.
To call them relatively low level isolated fires is absurd. The floors were sagging from the heat!
Watch some footage of the event. No, don’t select corners of photographs!
Alright, fine. Can you explain why it was a ground level explosion? If they're running to the door, the building clearly hadn't gotten down that far.
In response to post #655: Is that some kind of a joke? That is your crutch. Its what you rely on when you have nothing else to say.