WTC Collapses

[John99]

I have just kicked my self in the ass, Hell I have worked with thermite in the military, and it doesn't explode, it burns with a very loud hiss, thermite is not a explosive, it is a flammable.

The reason that a building that has been prepared for controlled demolition is not a control for a building collapse, is that the building is stripped all windows, doors, and any none supporting structures, and just watch the strings of charges that go off, they are timed, and sequenced to control the fall and flow of debre, it sound like a machine gun going off, ripples of shots.

A controlled demolition building is a totally stripped building, and WTC 7 was not.

good points Buff...maybe HS believes that was all done weeks before but no one noticed.

They never answer questions involving logic or common sense such as the explosives being planted and NO ONE seeing this done gets ignored by the toofers.

 

[scott3x]

do we need a calculation? he says "The pressures approached 100,000 psi late in the collapse. How could these pressures not result in humans and other materials being crushed to dust?"
but what we know is that human remains, 700 very small bone fragments were found on the roof of the Deutsche Bank Building which was 565 feet high.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bank_Building
so any talk of pressures during "late collapse" cannot explain the bone fragments created during the early stages of collapse. Also, the plane crash debris did not spray the roof of the deutsche bank, so these bone fragments came from the early collapse process.

You know, the irony here is that official story believers and alternate story believers both believe that -something- took the building down. I think where Urich is making his mistake is in assuming that the pressure was due to pancake collapsing instead of explosives.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

what do they do in uncontrolled demolitions?
what do they do if they bring down a building to deceive people into thinking it came down by fire? do they salvage the doors and pipes to make money on the side prior to the event? i don't think so. non-sequitur.
did they strip the moscow apartment buildings in 1999, did AQ strip the wtc in 1993?

thermite can be designed to explode using nano technology.

If you use explosive to blast thermite, it scatters all over the place, and the only way thermite burn through and cuts anything is in concentrated piles, or by placing Thermite Grenades, on the object you wish to cut or destroy, and the only explosive in a thermite Grenade is the blasting cap that ignites the Thermite.

The WTC Towers came down due to structural damage, fire, and heat induced loss of temper of the steel and iron support members, the 500,000lb elephant that is totally ignored in all this is the aircraft that hit those buildings at 500+ mph, Newton's Law,

II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector.

Now what is the energy release of 500,000 lbs of airplane at 500 mph?

In both buildings it sheared completely through the structure, and even though the building fell into their own foot print again Newton's Law of motion:

I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

There was no side motion imparted to the buildings so they have nothing to move them out of the foot print, inertia kept them that way, the only movement applied to the structures was vertical displacement, straight down.

Now since the Building fell straight down, the material from those buildings as it self destructs need to go some where, so it is slufed off to the sides of the foot print, WTC debris collapsed and destroyed WTC 6, and the combined debris from the 110 story's of WTC 1, and the 9 storie's of WTC 6, flowed into and is what undercut the structure of WTC 7 it was the debris slide from WTC, 1 and 6, that flowed in to the bottom floors, and the substructures of WTC 7 that caused the collapse.

Thermite in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEmHJORTlqk

Thermite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dec 9, 2008 ... Thermite reactions have many uses. Thermite is not an explosive but instead operates by exposing a very small area of metal to extremely ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite - 53k - Similar pages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
The Bogus Science Of 'Explosive Super Thermite'
Thermate, Thermite, SuperThermite, etc, are cutting agents Not High Pressure Wave Explosives. An explosive quality is counterproductive to a cutting agent. ...

www.rense.com/general77/geddno.htm - 53k - Similar pages

 

[Headspin]

<snip talk of macro thermite>

nanothermite (MICs) is completely different in its chemical properties and behaviour to macro thermite. you cannot limit the discussion to macro-thermite. the statement is just false - "the only way thermite burn through and cuts anything is in concentrated piles, or by placing Thermite Grenades"

A whole new high tech field has opened up since at least 1995 using nano scale thermite reactants to make lightweight tunable high explosives.
"certain key MIC (Metastable Intermolecular Composites) characteristics are very attractive and quite promising for practical applications. These include energy output that is 2x that of typical high explosives, the ability to tune the reactive power (10 KW/cc to 10 GW/cc), tunable reaction front velocities of 0.1-1500 meters/sec, and reaction zone temperature exceeding 3000K (equivalent to 2700 Celcius or 5000 Fahrenheit)"

http://ammtiac.alionscience.com/pdf/AMPQ6_1ART06.pdf

unreacted nanothermite was discovered in the wtc dust analysis along with some pieces that had previously molten microspsheres attached to the partly reacted nanothermite. these molten spheres had the chemical signature of commercial thermite.
isn't it time to investigate this further???

The Bogus Science Of 'Explosive Super Thermite'
Thermate, Thermite, SuperThermite, etc, are cutting agents Not High Pressure Wave Explosives. An explosive quality is counterproductive to a cutting agent. ...

www.rense.com/general77/geddno.htm - 53k - Similar pages

what is that article saying? <confused>. does the author have any expertise in this area?
it seems to be saying that nanothermite does not explode and uses an example of a blend using Molybdenum Oxide at 400 m/s.

it then talks of detonation rates of high explosives:
"High explosives are normally employed in mining, demolition, and military warheads. They undergo detonation at rates of 1,000 to 9,000 meters per second"

tunability of nanothermite properties
http://aiche.confex.com/aiche/2008/techprogram/P128319.HTM

explosive nanothermite in a transparent silica matrix
https://www.llnl.gov/str/RSimpson.html

 

[Headspin]

Now since the Building fell straight down, the material from those buildings as it self destructs need to go some where, so it is slufed off to the sides of the foot print, WTC debris collapsed and destroyed WTC 6, and the combined debris from the 110 story's of WTC 1, and the 9 storie's of WTC 6, flowed into and is what undercut the structure of WTC 7 it was the debris slide from WTC, 1 and 6, that flowed in to the bottom floors, and the substructures of WTC 7 that caused the collapse.

wtc6 was not destroyed, there was no avalanche of material sliding through wtc7:

do you have any evidence for the undercutting destruction of the bottom of wtc7, or is that just from the usual speculators? NIST after 7 years of investigating make no mention of this. here's some photos:
http://www.infowars.net/articles/march2007/200307building7.htm

after wtc1 and wtc2 collapsed: no avalanche of material undercutting wtc7:

 

[Headspin]

 

[scott3x]

Gregori Urich, Part 3

This post is in response to the 3rd part of shaman_'s post 394 in this thread.

Continuing where I left off in my response to Gregory's Open letter to Richard Gage and AE911Truth:

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5. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds

Is the cloud really pyroclastic, or is it just dust? Engineers at STJ911 have calculated that 15% of the concrete together with fireproofing and gypsum would result in massive volumes amounting to 10 lbs of dust per square foot over an area of 200 acres. Engineers at STJ911 have calculated that the air being expelled from the collapsing building was approaching velocities of 200 m/s. This is the primary engine driving the expanding dust clouds. The dust cloud was given even more energy from debris falling outside the perimeter.​

************

This argument can't even get off the ground, in light of 9/11 Research's article "The North Tower's Dust Cloud", which makes it clear that the dust clouds in question would have required much more energy then the building's potential energy.

And sure, dust was being expelled at truly astonishing speeds- due to explosives; there simply wasn't enough potential energy in the building for it to have happened any other way.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Yes, when you melt rusted Iron you get iron rich spheres, that is normal.

Thermite is still not a explosive, it does not work by shock wave to cut, it burns it's way through.

I have worked with both, I had those for toys probably long before you were born.

Can you positively identify the red chip as thermite? thermite burns completely, and is self consuming, once alight it burns until it is consumed, so I doubt that is a chip of thermite from the WTC.

The Commercial and Military grades of Thermite are black or blue iron oxide
(Fe3O4) and are a Dark Gray or Blue Black in color.

Red iron(III) oxide (Fe2O3, commonly known as rust) so that chip that is claimed to be thermite is nothing more than rust on steel or iron, they both have a tendance to do exactly that rust.

And that Chip is not the size of nano thermite.


A thermite reaction taking place on a cast iron skillet.Black or blue iron oxide (Fe3O4), produced by oxidizing iron in an oxygen-rich environment under high heat, is the most commonly used thermite oxidizing agent because it is inexpensive and easily produced. Red iron(III) oxide (Fe2O3, commonly known as rust)


Nano thermite is a mixture of ultra fine particles of aluminium and metal oxide, and can be held in a matrix to keep it from seperating, but it is a flamable, it has no explosive force, it accomplishes its tasks by extreme heat.

Thermite is a pyrotechnic composition of aluminium powder and a metal oxide which produces an aluminothermic reaction known as a thermite reaction. It is not explosive, but can create short bursts of extremely high temperatures focused on a very small target for a short period of time.

The aluminium reduces the oxide of another metal, most commonly iron oxide, because aluminium is highly combustible:

Fe2O3 + 2Al -> 2Fe + Al2O3 + Heat
The products are aluminium oxide, free elemental iron, and a large amount of heat. The reactants are commonly powdered and mixed with a binder to keep the material solid and prevent separation.

 

[Headspin]

Yes, when you melt rusted Iron you get iron rich spheres, that is normal.

the molten microspheres (spheres up to 1.5cm down to micron size) are comprised of aluminium as well as iron as well as other elements such as sulfur and potassium. you cannot get that from melting rust.

Thermite is still not a explosive, it does not work by shock wave to cut, it burns it's way through.

Where did I say Thermite was explosive? where did anyone say thermite was explosive? did you read my posts or just skip read through them? so yes i agree with your statement.

I have worked with both, I had those for toys probably long before you were born.

you have worked with Nanothermite? before I was born? I don't think so! it was first announced in 1995.

Can you positively identify the red chip as thermite? thermite burns completely, and is self consuming, one alight it burns until it is consumed, so I doubt that is a chip of thermite from the WTC.

yes, it has been established using spectroscopy that that the red side of the chips consist of aluminium and iron, the other side is grey. it is not rust. it reacts explosively when subjected to a laser.

"self-consuming, one alight it burns until it is consumed" - can you state this for certain? you are coming from the point of view that nanothermite doesn't behave explosively. nanothermite reacts much more violently than thermite, and also very differently according to how you design it. I've gone through this in recent posts.

The Commercial and Military grades of Thermite are black or blue iron oxide (Fe3O4) and are a Dark Gray or Blue Black in color.

so what's the significance of this statement? different cakes are different colors too.

Red iron(III) oxide (Fe2O3, commonly known as rust) so that chip that is claimed to be thermite is nothing more than rust on steel or iron, they both have a tendance to do exactly that rust.

"Thermite"? It has been discovered to be nanothermite. it does not resolve at 25 nanometers on an electron microscope, therefore the particle size are smaller than 25 nm, ie nano sized. how does that happen in rust?
it contains aluminium particles on the nanoscale too. there is no aluminium in iron rust.
you cannot declare it to be "rust" based only on the color of the sample no more than you could declare it to be a carrot.

And that Chip is not the size of nano thermite.

eh?
nanothermite is created by drying sol gels into solids, solids you can create at any size you want, or as a paste, or as a sprayable foam which drys into a solid, or as an intumescent paint. what you just said was like saying that a loaf of bread cannot be bread because flour is very small particles, and bread is not the size of flour.

A thermite reaction taking place on a cast iron skillet.Black or blue iron oxide (Fe3O4), produced by oxidizing iron in an oxygen-rich environment under high heat, is the most commonly used thermite oxidizing agent because it is inexpensive and easily produced. Red iron(III) oxide (Fe2O3, commonly known as rust)

you've just cut and pasted this from wikipedia, what do you mean by it?

Nano thermite is a mixture of ultra fine particles of aluminium and metal oxide, and can be held in a matrix to keep it from seperating, but it is a flamable, it has no explosive force, it accomplishes its tasks by extreme heat.

nanothermite is explosive, i have shown you that nanothermite is explosive using department of defence and Lawrence Livermore documents and scientific papers published in journals.

do you disagree with those documents?

Thermite is a pyrotechnic composition of aluminium powder and a metal oxide which produces an aluminothermic reaction known as a thermite reaction. It is not explosive, but can create short bursts of extremely high temperatures focused on a very small target for a short period of time.

The aluminium reduces the oxide of another metal, most commonly iron oxide, because aluminium is highly combustible:

Fe2O3 + 2Al -> 2Fe + Al2O3 + Heat
The products are aluminium oxide, free elemental iron, and a large amount of heat. The reactants are commonly powdered and mixed with a binder to keep the material solid and prevent separation.

what is the significance of these statements? you've just cut and pasted the above from wikipedia again. it just describes the basic aluminothermic thermite reaction. it says nothing about Nanoenergetics or Metastable Intermolecular Composites.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Headspin

Here is where someone isn't being truthfull, this is the use of Nano Thermite, it is used in medicine, not demolition.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nanotechnology/Targeting_Diseases

Apperson, S.. [http://www.physorg.com/news119702507.html "Nanoparticles Generate Supersonic Shock Waves to Target CancerPhysorg.com, 2008. Retrieved on 2008-6-23.

Cancer example #1: Nanoparticles Generate Supersonic Shock Waves to Target Cancer
Researchers from UCM (the University of Missouri-Columbia) and the United States Army have made a nano-sized “bomb”. This bomb can target drug delivery to cancer tumors without damage to any other cells. The nano thermites produce shock waves in the Mach 3 range. Cancer fighting drugs would me administered via a needle, and then a device would send a pulse into the tumor. The pulse would create little holes in the tumor, so the drugs can enter.[7]

Nano Thermite is used in Cancer Treatment.

Thanks to my Sister-in-law, she works in cancer treatment, pain management.

That is what Nano Thermite is used for Cancer treatments and it is set off by lazer ignition.

That was developed in 1995, and yes I had no experence working with thermite as a medical treatment.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Headspin

Super Thermite is still only thermite:

A super-thermite is a chemical mixture containing an oxidizer and a reducing agent which undergoes a very powerful exothermic reaction when heated to a critical temperature.

What separates super-thermites from traditional thermites is that the oxidizer and a reducing agent, normally iron oxide and aluminum are not a fine powder, but rather nanometer-sized particulates. This dramatically increases the reactivity relative to micrometre-sized powder thermite.

 

[MacGyver1968]

No...Buffalo...Supernanogroovythermite is a miracle demolition material that is explosive, but is silent, produces no smoke, light or shockwave, and it's detonated with mental telepathy. Geez..don't you know anything?

 

[Headspin]

Headspin

Super Thermite is still only thermite

Yes superthermite (or nanothermite) is a thermite, but this is not the same as saying "thermite is superthermite".
a pile of gunpowder set alight in a pile will just fizzle, but it will explode if you pack it in a firework. so it's like you are saying "a firework is just gunpowder", which says very little about the properties of a firework.

the wikpedia article you cut and pasted from states "This article is in need of attention from an expert on the subject"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-thermites

that article could have been written by a debunker for all you know,
there is no mention of the sol-gel process, or the that it is manufactured as a solid, it does not mention the tunability of the properties of thermite.

 

[Headspin]

No...Buffalo...Supernanogroovythermite is a miracle demolition material that is explosive, but is silent, produces no smoke, light or shockwave, and it's detonated with mental telepathy. Geez..don't you know anything?

you are hiding behind sarcasm to mask what you want to be true. what you want to be true is :

"nanothermite does not exist, it is not explosive, it produces no white smoke, no light, it cannot produce shockwaves, cannot be detonated or ignitied with remote charges, nor can it be ignited or detonated with a shockwave, it will detonate by ordinary office fires.

- that is what you want to be true, and what you want to be able to say, but you know if you say those things i'll disprove you, and you'll have to face the fact that your beliefs are not true and the debunkers have been lying to you. You shroud what you want to be true in a sarcastic and trivialising manner because you know people are less likely to respond with a serious argument to sarcasm.

 

[Headspin]

Headspin

Here is where someone isn't being truthfull, this is the use of Nano Thermite, it is used in medicine, not demolition.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nanotechnology/Targeting_Diseases

Apperson, S.. [http://www.physorg.com/news119702507.html "Nanoparticles Generate Supersonic Shock Waves to Target CancerPhysorg.com, 2008. Retrieved on 2008-6-23.

Cancer example #1: Nanoparticles Generate Supersonic Shock Waves to Target Cancer
Researchers from UCM (the University of Missouri-Columbia) and the United States Army have made a nano-sized “bomb”. This bomb can target drug delivery to cancer tumors without damage to any other cells. The nano thermites produce shock waves in the Mach 3 range. Cancer fighting drugs would me administered via a needle, and then a device would send a pulse into the tumor. The pulse would create little holes in the tumor, so the drugs can enter.[7]

Nano Thermite is used in Cancer Treatment.

Thanks to my Sister-in-law, she works in cancer treatment, pain management.

That is what Nano Thermite is used for Cancer treatments and it is set off by lazer ignition.

That was developed in 1995, and yes I had no experence working with thermite as a medical treatment.

you have shown evidence that nanothermite can be used for a particular application.

this is not the same as showing that nanothermite can only be used for that particular application.

did you look at this Department of Defence/DARPA advanced research document?

pages 43-45:
http://www.p2pays.org/ref/15/14610.pdf

making nanothermite in a beaker, from april 2000:
"To date nanostructured energetic materials are largely unknowns with the exception of nanometer-sized reactive powders now being produced at a number of laboratories. We have invented a new method of making nanostructured energetic materials, specifically explosives, propellants, and pyrotechnics, using sol-gel chemistry...."
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/247064.pdf

take a look at the pictures on page 8 in this link https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/247064.pdf
that is not something you want to detonate at mach 3 to blast your tumour with!

nanocomposite energetics manufactured using aerogel process:
http://eetd.lbl.gov/ECS/aerogels/sa-nano.html

mix thermite up with PETN or RDX, so small light does not scatter:
https://www.llnl.gov/str/RSimpson.html

here is a chunk of aerogel manufactured as a solid:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2284349.ece

You can see it is a big mistake to think of nanothermite as only possible to exist at the nano scale. Bread consists of many trillions of flour particles, nanothermite manufactured as an aerogel consists of many trillions of nanothermite particles, but exists as a macro sized solid.

...and different colors too:

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Thermite is still not a explosive, it achieves it usefulness by intense exothermic reaction.

The nano Thermite technology that does involve its use in a explosion is for medical cancer treatment, to deliver anti cancer drugs, not demolition.

Nano Thermite is still only a super fine form of Thermite, and in it's micro form it burns more efficiently making it a better welding and cutting agent, again by intense exothermic reaction.

There is no known form of Thermite that is explosive, unless explosives are mixed in the thermite, and then that mix is used for its incendiary properties to start fires across large areas.

Again, all you picture shows, is a rusting iron chip, and slag beads from welding.

Those particle of iron Spheres are from the welding that took place in the construction of the towers, as the towers rose, the support structure was welded together, thousands of pounds of welding bead slag was generated, and fell on the poured concrete of the floors below as construction continued, that is where those iron rich beads came from, I can go down to Mid State Construction today, and get you pounds of the exact same beads from under the welding tables were the welders work.

Those beads are from welding not thermite burn.

Just go to a Metal Fabrication Company in your area, and ask about those beads, and ask for some, and then look at them. and they are exactly same as those pictured and claimed to be from thermite reaction, those beads prove nothing, they are common to any welded construct.

 

[Enmos]

Jesus Christ, just give it up with the conspiracy theories.. :bugeye:

 

[Headspin]

Thermite is still not a explosive, it achieves it usefulness by intense exothermic reaction.

Yes i agree with your statement, thermite powder is not explosive, it is classified as an incendary. I have not claimed anywhere that Thermite was explosive. I have not seen anyone else claim it to be explsoive.

The nano Thermite technology that does involve its use in a explosion is for medical cancer treatment, to deliver anti cancer drugs, not demolition.

You have outlined just a single specific application for the technology. Technologies can be used in many different applications.

Nano Thermite is still only a super fine form of Thermite, and in it's micro form it burns more efficiently making it a better welding and cutting agent, again by intense exothermic reaction.

Nanothermite allows for a greater release and a quicker release of energy due to its higher surface area. it behaves explosively. there are technical documents which classify nanothermite as stradling low explosive and high explosive. it is between an incendary and an explosive.
page 181 (8-11)
"Nanostructure High Explosives using Sol-gel Chemistry"
https://e-reports-ext.llnl.gov/pdf/238334.pdf

There is no known form of Thermite that is explosive, unless explosives are mixed in the thermite, and then that mix is used for its incendiary properties to start fires across large areas.

ok, so you are saying that high tech explosives can be created using the thermitic reaction, which would leave a trace in the form of thermite reaction residue?

Again, all you picture shows, is a rusting iron chip, and slag beads from welding.

Those particle of iron Spheres are from the welding that took place in the construction of the towers, as the towers rose, the support structure was welded together, thousands of pounds of welding bead slag was generated, and fell on the poured concrete of the floors below as construction continued, that is where those iron rich beads came from, I can go down to Mid State Construction today, and get you pounds of the exact same beads from under the welding tables were the welders work.

Those beads are from welding not thermite burn.

you are ignoring the chemical analysis of those chips.

are you claiming rust from structural steel/iron has high aluminum, silicon, potassium, and sulfur?
are you claiming that slag beads have high aluminum, silicon, potassium, and sulfur content?
10% aluminum:
http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/WTCHighTemp2.pdf

Just go to a Metal Fabrication Company in your area, and ask about those beads, and ask for some, and then look at them. and they are exactly same as those pictured and claimed to be from thermite reaction, those beads prove nothing, they are common to any welded construct.

how do you know just by looking at a picture? thermite debris only looks like welding debris - it is very different in composition. the chemical analysis shows a thermite signature, not a rust or welding signature.

 

[Headspin]

Jesus Christ, just give it up with the conspiracy theories.. :bugeye:

its amazing the lengths people will go to in order to protect their belief in the official theory.

 

[scott3x]

Gregori Urich, Part 4

This post is in response to the 4th part of shaman_'s post 394 in this thread.

Continuing where I left off in my response to Gregory's Open letter to Richard Gage and AE911Truth:

************
6. Vertical progression of full building perimeter demolition waves.

This is only one interpretation of the visual records of the collapses. Another interpretation is that the pressures due to impacts were blowing out the windows.The characterization as “demolition waves” has no support in the evidence or scientific analyses to date.​

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Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth have removed the 'demolition waves' term, but from 9/11 Research's Explosions page:
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South Tower Demolition Wave

A three-second movie shows about 2.5 seconds of the South Tower collapse starting at about three seconds into the plunge of the tower's top. The short movie shows the roughly spherical debris cloud nearly double in size, even accounting for the perspective. The leading edge of the wave is about to reach the 44th-floor sky lobby when the camera operator turns to run. The movie (mpeg) was found on plaguepuppy's cafe with the following description.

Though the view of the building is brief, looking at it in slow motion reveals some peculiar features. At the very start of the clip we can see how perfectly even the collapse is, advancing with what looks for all the world like rows of explosions progressing in a perfectly straight line around the building, and advancing down in an extremely uniform way. As the demolition wave advances there is only dust and smoke where the top of the building used to be, and a great quantity of dust mixed with small pieces of structural steel is ejected out horizontally at high speed. To account for this very rapid ejection of debris without the use of high explosives, especially in the early stages of the collapse, seems quite impossible.

If you look closely as the wave travels down it seems to spare the corners, perhaps letting them lag behind to help keep the implosion aligned. The demolition wave is clearly advancing ahead of the actual collapse of the structure, and speeds up as it travels down. The delays between demolition charges would have to be very precisely controlled to create this effect, suggesting to me that each floor was wired to a separate detonator, with control of the sequencing most likely done remotely. This would also allow the collapse to be triggered from the point of impact of the plane to make it look more realistic. Such sequencing could easily be done from a laptop connected wirelessly to the towers, as long as each floor could be detonated separately.​

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