This post is in response to the 3rd part of shaman_'s
post 340 from this thread.
The difference between steel warehouses, steel reinforced concrete framed towers and 100% steel framed towers, part 4
Groan. Just
read this.
Have you read it? Do you actually understand what is in that article? You have just seen that 911review has something about the Madrid Tower so in your mind the official story is debunked.
The two claims in that article are 1. That steel is a good conductor to the heat should have been conducted away from the heat source. This becomes irrelevant when the temperatures of the steel are reaching 1000C. It doesn't matter how well it is conducting at that point. As has been demonstrated to you multiple times, the steel can reach these temperatures in even normal office fires.
2. Fire can cause spalling in the concrete. This is again irrelevant as apparently spalling was not a problem at the Madrid tower as the concrete core stayed up. I saw no mention of spalling.
I think it would be best if you read the whole thing. It's only about 2 pages worth.
You aren’t even able to defend your own position and instead just keep referring me to a page which doesn’t even contradict what I am saying.
The title of the article is "The Core Structure Of The World Trade Center Towers Was A Steel Reinforced, Cast Concrete, Tubular Core". Why not take a
look at the article itself?
The core columns were not reinforced in concrete. Even your own 911 article says
“In contrast to the WTC Towers, the Windsor building was framed primarily in steel-reinforced concrete, with columns of concrete reinforced by thin sections of rebar. 4 “
Sigh. From the same article:
***********
The design was a "tube in a tube" construction where the steel reinforced, cast concrete interior tube, was surrounded with a structural steel framework configured as another tube with the load bearing capacity bias towards the perimeter wall with the core acting to reduce deformation of the steel structure maximizing its load bearing capacity. All steel structures with the proportions of the WTC towers have inherent problems with flex and torsion. Distribution of gravity loads was; perimeter walls 50%, interior core columns 30% core 20%.
***********
.. and I am telling you that is wrong. The inner core was supported entirely by the steel core columns.
Perhaps you are referring to the interior core columns? If so, the article I mention states that they only supported 30% of the load as I stated above.
Here is an article which discusses mistake NIST made so you may actually read it. It goes into more detail regarding the distribution of loads on WTC1.
http://www.cool-places.0catch.com/911/loadDistribution_v1.pdf
You honestly think an 18 second video is going to persuade me that the twin towers had no concrete core? .
Your own site said so! ..As does every source of information I have seen regarding the construction of the twin towers.
In all truth, I would like more evidence then the one article I have but the article I quoted seems to know what they're talking about.
No they don’t. You blindly believe everything 911review says and don’t (or can’t) actually think critically about what they say.
Yes. You want me to quote you passages from his article "
Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?" where he does so?
Yes I would like you to quote me some passages where Steven Jones has debunked him. This should be good.
Several of which Steven Jones has debunked.
Perhaps you could point me to where Jones debunked these people as well…
Yes, freedom of the mainstream presses belongs to those who own them.
Right. All the engineering journals are in on it too.
You must be relying on Ryan Mackey again. From what I heard, atleast one of the publications where he paid was a peer reviewed publication.
I heard otherwise.
I wait with baited breath
Even NIST apparently admitted that an analysis -was- made. No, not by the junior WTC engineer Leslie Robertson, but by John Skilling. As Kevin Ryan states:
In 1993, five years before his death, Skilling said that he had performed an analysis on jet plane crashes and the ensuing fires and that "the building structure would still be there."
.. and where are the details of this analysis? People since then have also done analysis and their findings are consistent with the official story.
Kevin Ryan also states in the aforementioned article:
"...NIST suggested that the documents that would support testing of the steel components, along with documents containing Skilling's jet-fuel-fire analysis, could not be found.26"
.. and…?
Read through a bit. Looks like I may have an idea as to where you got the idea that 707s were 'slow flying'
.I never said they were slow flying. Leslie Robertson was referring to one flying slowly if it were lost in fog....
That's certainly my impression.
Hey the builders of the titanic said that it was unsinkable….
This post is in response to the 4th and final part of shaman_'s post 340 from this thread.
The difference between steel warehouses, steel reinforced concrete framed towers and 100% steel framed towers, part 5
I have. .
Then to claim that you didn’t see any large fires is dishonest.
Many believe it was most likely to be iron. It certainly wasn't pure molten aluminum. I can't currently counter your idea that it was a combination of the 2, but even if it was, the office fires could not have accounted for the iron part. Thermate would have done quite a good job of it, though. Steven Jones deals with 4 possibilities in his paper "Revisiting 9/11/2001 --Applying the Scientific Method", which you can currently
download from NIST itself.
Those possibilities are:
1. Perhaps the structural steel in the buildings melted and is flowing out.
2. Perhaps it is molten aluminum from the aircraft that melted and is flowing out, perhaps with
added organics from burning office materials.
3. A mix of the two (above) including office materials, etc.
4. Molten metals (e.g., molten iron) produced by highly exothermic chemical reactions (e.g., aluminothermic/thermite reactions)
.
Or it could be something he hasn’t listed there such as a mixture of lead from batteries or partly dissolved iron (from temperatures near 1000C) or something else.
Of those, he establishes that the only one that is credible is the 4th. .
No, really!
You sure you're not the one who's misrepresenting the truth? You and others have presented your photos as well and I have remained unpersuaded. .
You are seeing what you want to see.
Do you have any evidence to support that claim? .
You are being obtuse again. Why don’t you think about it? Give it a go. Thinking won’t hurt you.
People will go to the coldest part of the building, not the hottest. Won’t they?
Do you have such a picture? I'd actually like to see it. .
I do actually. Its in this document though.
http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/fst/FST-D1.pdf
Hot by building standards and by human standards are 2 very different things. .
If the floors were visibly bowing and twisted steel was found there clearly it was hot by building standards!
Yes, small fires, relative to the size of the building.
Stop and think about that comment. It may have looked like only a small percentage of the building was on fire but that is misleading due to its size. The building was one of the tallest in the world. Only one floor had to fail for the collapse to begin.
That was an awesome picture though. I believe I remember reading somewhere that thermite may have been used to create some of the fires in the towers as well.
Oh come on Scott that is a baseless, desperate rationalization . You are trying to shoehorn thermite into every explanation.
Yes, I know about NIST's flimsy 'plane knocked off the fireproofing' theory. Here's an excerpt from an
annotated debate between Steven Jones and Leslie Robertson:
*************************************
[Leslie Robertson:]
"Now, if you look at a good example would be perhaps surrounding buildings where debris from the Trade Center struck the building and if you went to those areas, you found that the impact of the debris had shaken off the fire protection materials. It wasn't scraped off, it was taken off by the impact I feel, probably the vibration of the structure due to the impact of the, of the aircraft."
GR: He “feels.” He’s trying to head off the push for a serious scientific investigation, which scientists, engineers, and millions of citizens agree have never been done, because of his feelings. He says he read the NIST report, but it doesn’t sound as though he remembers NIST’s inability to establish fireproofing loss by forces of vibration.
That inability led NIST to make an absurd attempt (a “shotgun approach,” if you will) to prove that the impacts must have dislodged large amounts of fireproofing material directly. According to Kevin Ryan, fired whistleblower from Underwriters Laboratories:
The shotgun test not only failed to support NIST's pre-determined conclusions, as was the case for all of their other physical tests, but it actually proved that the fireproofing could not have been sheared off because too much energy would be needed. This did not deter NIST, as they simply proceeded by filling their computer model with vague, sweeping assumptions like suggesting that the fireproofing was completely removed wherever the office furnishings were damaged (i.e. if a cube wall fell or a pencil was broken, thousands of square meters of fireproofing must have been sheared off too).23
...there is no evidence that a Boeing 767 could transform into any number of shotgun blasts. Nearly 100,000 blasts would be needed based on NIST’s own damage estimates, and these would have to be directed in a very symmetrical fashion to strip the columns and floors from all sides. However, it is much more likely that the aircraft debris was a distribution of sizes from very large chunks to a few smaller ones, and that it was directed asymmetrically. Also, there is no indication that fireproofing was stripped from beneath the aluminum cladding on the exterior columns, but in subsequent steps of their story, NIST depends on this....
To put NIST’s pivotal claim to rest, there was simply no energy available to cause fireproofing loss. Previous calculations by engineers at MIT had shown that all the kinetic energy from the aircraft was consumed in breaking columns, crushing the floors and destroying the aircraft itself. But NIST’s tests indicate that 1 MJ of energy was needed per square meter of surface area to shear the fireproofing off. For the areas in question, more than 6,000 square meters of column, floor deck and floor joist surface, the extra energy needed would be several times more than the entire amount of kinetic energy available to begin with.24 [emphasis added]
*************************************
Which is blatantly wrong. Mackey addresses this several times through the document I repeatedly quote.
Here are a couple of excerpts.
“This is a mystification of the NIST summary of findings presented on page 273 of
NCSTAR1-6A. Here NIST reports that SFRM would be completely dislodged “by direct
impact with solid objects that had a kinetic energy … approaching 104 to 105 ft-lb / ft2
(105 to 106 J / m2).” Mr. Ryan has disingenuously used the upper end of that scale,
incorporating the full extra factor of 10. However, this is irrelevant, because Ryan also
makes the assumption that the SFRM absorbs all of this energy. The NIST summary
does not suggest that this energy was absorbed. Instead, it says that projectiles require a
certain kinetic energy to transfer the needed shock to break the SFRM loose – but
afterwards, those projectiles would retain most of their energy, either ricocheting or
smashing the formerly fireproofed building contents out of the way. The SFRM absorbs
only a tiny fraction of this energy, leaving the rest to break loose other SFRM or damage
the building structure. This is clearly seen in NIST’s results, such as Figure C-4, where
the shotgun pellets passed through the SFRM, retaining enough energy to destroy the
pellets themselves, while the SFRM – untouched except for a dozen small holes – falls
off in a single piece. It is obvious that the only energy absorbed by the SFRM itself was
in resistance to the pellets (minimal; SFRM is hardly bulletproof) and damping
oscillation of the steel plate as it vibrated after being struck, prior to shaking the SFRM
loose. Both contributions are extremely low, and the vast majority of the SFRM that falls
away is undamaged. Therefore, the energy is not absorbed, and thus Ryan’s claim that
the total energy of impact is too low to dislodge the SFRM is completely wrong.
“NIST does not claim that 1 MJ of energy per square meter was needed.
Again, NIST reported, on page 273 of NCSTAR1-6A:
Based on the observations made in the ballistic impact tests, the SFRM was dislodged by direct
impact with solid objects that had a kinetic energy per unit impact area approaching 104 to 105 ft
lb/ft2 (105 to 106 J/m2). In addition, SFRM that was not dislodged after the debris impact lost its
adhesion to the steel surface in all but one test. The SFRM on the steel plate was dislodged upon
impact of the projectiles, except for the ballistic impact at a 60 degree angle to the plate. When
the SFRM was taped to the steel plate and the tape carefully removed after debris impact at 0
173
degree, no adhesion of the SFRM to the steel plate was found, the same result found for the 0
degree impact test without duct tape. For SFRM on steel bars, the remaining SFRM after impact
rotated freely with respect to the bar. [267] (Emphasis added)
The author is not presenting the above to advance a rigorous estimate of the true energy
requirement, but merely to clarify that Mr. Ryan did also misrepresent NIST in the
passage cited by Dr. Griffin. The summary cited above is totally incompatible with Mr.
Ryan’s statement, again, that “NIST’s tests indicate that 1 MJ of energy was needed per
square meter of surface area to shear the fireproofing off.” They do no such thing.
NIST’s own summary statement indicates that it is impact, not energy itself, that is
required, and that the energy of impacting objects need only approach 0.1 to 1 MJ / m2,
not 1 MJ / m2 as Mr. Ryan reported. Regarding the table of energy values describing
NIST’s tests, it is correct that most of the tests are closer to 1 MJ / m2 than the lower end
of NIST’s range as Mr. Ryan insists, but this is no excuse for misquoting the conclusion.
“
I'm talking about their 2004 interim NIST report, which is the one that Kevin Ryan was looking at at the time. In that report, they state that most of the steel hadn't gone beyond 250C..
1. They don’t state that in the report at all but I have tried repeatedly to get that through to you. Those figures are from the paint samples only. You refuse to comprehend anything that damages the conspiracy.
2. If it was an interim report then it probably wasn’t “final” conclusions, was it genius?
Perhaps now that I have presented more evidence you wish to change your tune?
Will you change your tune after reading Mackey's comments. I doubt you have read anything of his that I have presented.
5 trusses where the plane crashed into the building? That all you got?
That answer is all you have got? You wanted to see evidence; you saw it, now you are challenging me for more. You spend the entire discussion backed into the corner don’t you Scott?