Write4U's stream of consciousness

[Write4U]

Still not following I see. If you had been following you would know there is absolutely nothing I need clarification on. This statement might confuse you since you seem to not be able to follow the conversation.

I don't dispute that you don't need clarification on the science.But it does appear that you need me to clarify on my ability to understand.
You dispute my understanding of things, but you don't ask me for clarification on specifics. This very conversation highlights the problem. We are discussing my abilities to comprehend instead of the subject.
The OP states "Is the brain necessesary ". What exactly do I not understand about that concept?

Ask me something scientific that you believe I do not understand and let me clarify my perspective where it appears to be obtuse or not related.

 

[Sarkus]

What much of the anecdotal evidence of conscious people with brain-space of mostly water seems to ignore us that the brain is a highly plastic environment, and we are thought to use, what, 10% of it? I.e. it is not unreasonable to assume that in some cases a person with only a few % of brain matters might still display normal capability. They just wouldn't have, I'd wager, much headroom (no pun intended) in the event of damage to their brain being somehow picked up by the rest.
But then we understand so little, biologically or philosophically, about what consciousness even is.

IMO, consciousness began when the self-referential experiential network looked up and asked a question.

How are you defining "consciousness"? Are you suggesting that plants ask questions, for example? Do fleas? Ants? Dogs? What about newborn babies?
You refer to "self-referential" but babies, for example, aren't self aware until c.18 months old. But they are conscious.
So some clarity as to what you mean, please?

Before then the self-referential homeostatic network already was controlling the physical well-being of the organism autonomously.[/QUOTE]

 

[Write4U]

What much of the anecdotal evidence of conscious people with brain-space of mostly water seems to ignore us that the brain is a highly plastic environment, and we are thought to use, what, 10% of it?

I believe that has been upgraded to 100%.

One of the most persistent and widely spread brain myths states that we only use 10% of our brains......
The truth, however, is less fantastic. There is absolutely no scientific evidence, which confirms this myth, not even to some extent. Various theories on the origin of this myth exist, but there is no significant evidence to suggest that we only use 10 or any other specific or limited percentage of our brains. On the contrary, all existing data shows that we use a 100% of our brains.
https://www.oecd.org/education/ceri/neuromyth4.htm#

But not all at the same time!

I.e. it is not unreasonable to assume that in some cases a person with only a few % of brain matters might still display normal capability. They just wouldn't have, I'd wager, much headroom (no pun intended) in the event of damage to their brain being somehow picked up by the rest.

Yes, when the microtubules begin to catastrophe without renewal it results in diminished capacity, but the very plasticity of "biochemical states" the neural network adopts, allows it to find duplicate codes that work within desired limits.
Hameroff explains his work on the relationship between microtubule catastrophe and Alzheimer's and Dementia.
There is a clear connection.

I have an actual personal hypothesis explaining the extraordinary complexity of the human brain as a result of a beneficial genetic mutation
that affected the growth sequence of the original ancestral ape brain and was causal to the eventual genetic split of "homo sapiens" from our "common ancestor".

Human Chromosome 2 isa fusion of two ancestral chromosomes

All great apes apart from man have 24 pairs of chromosomes. There is therefore a hypothesis that the common ancestor of all great apes had 24 pairs of chromosomes and that the fusion of two of the ancestor's chromosomes created chromosome 2 in humans. The evidence for this hypothesis is very strong.

Let us re-iterate what we find on human chromosome 2. Its centromere is at the same place as the chimpanzee chromosome 2p as determined by sequence similarity. Even more telling is the fact that on the 2q arm of the human chromosome 2 is the unmistakable remains of the original chromosome centromere of the common ancestor of human and chimp 2q chromosome, at the same position as the chimp 2q centromere (this structure in humans no longer acts as a centromere for chromosome 2.

Conclusion

The evidence that human chromosome 2 is a fusion of two of the common ancestor's chromosomes is overwhelming.

http://www.evolutionpages.com/chromosome_2.htm

Here we have a chromosome that is the second largest in the human body and is "unique" to humans. Was this mutation responsible for extraordinary braincell growth?

But then we understand so little, biologically or philosophically, about what consciousness even is.

True, but new data gleaned with improved observational equipment and AI, is streaming in faster than anyone can handle. And that is where AI will become invaluable for scanning the internet for related materials that may present small pieces of the puzzle but collectively may point in a specifid direction.

There is a problem, as I see it:
A long time ago David Bohm observed that many sciences have become fractured and specialized due to the enormity of scope and tangents and that can be detrimental in that the more removed the specialty is, the more the language becomes removed from the mainstream and we end up with scientists debating terminology rather than the science itself.

This prompted me to collect examples of research that involve MT as a common denominator in all Eukaryote life.. This may have seemed a random collection, but there was always the MT (and related filaments) as a common denominator and related to exteroception and interoception of the organism.

How are you defining "consciousness"? Are you suggesting that plants ask questions, for example? Do fleas? Ants? Dogs?

Is "tasting" a form of questioning? Why does a Venus flytrap only respond to a double irritant instead of one? It can count!

What about newborn babies? You refer to "self-referential" but babies, for example, aren't self aware until c.18 months old. But they are conscious. So some clarity as to what you mean, please?

My daughter discovered her hands and feet at a little over 9 months.

But that little brain was gathering information from the moment it was born and was storing data at an incredible rate.
(ever watched a deaf baby hear a voice after an implant? It's heart-warming)

Before then the self-referential homeostatic network already was controlling the physical well-being of the organism autonomously.

Yes, and that sub-conscious autonomous function emerged very early after the evolution from Prokaryote to Eukaryote and the evolving self-organization of cytology in all living organisms on earth, both fauna and flora.

Witness the single celled Paramecium that can detect exterior obstacles and learn to navigate, and the slime mold that can walk and hunt (pseudopodia), to hemocyanin Octopoda (evolved slugs) that have 9 brains, color-sensitive skin, and can "shape-shift at will" to blend perfectly with its environment.

It seems to me that trying to pin down the point of self-awareness as similar to trying to establish the first "living organism". (Except for that article about chromosome 2)

 

[Write4U]

An example of the conscious brain experiencing a new sensory ability, audio!
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/k-jcMI_mCCE

I can just imagine this conscious lump of connected neural cells that suddenly "discovers" a new aspect of reality, sound, communication, music!

 

[Sarkus]

I think you're missing the point of my last post.
That consciousness has emerged due to microtubules, pixie dust, or wishful thinking, doesn't really help answer what it is, any more than "water, wood, and stone" explains what a watermill is.

 

[Write4U]

I think you're missing the point of my last post.
That consciousness has emerged due to microtubules, pixie dust, or wishful thinking, doesn't really help answer what it is, any more than "water, wood, and stone" explains what a watermill is.

I think this analogy is inadequate. I believe that it is a matter of scope and size.
And you cannot answer what it is and what it does unless you examine and test the mechanism that produces the emergent quality. We know the mechanism. But at what level does it still operate logically? That is the current research.

And that is what I am trying to do. But I have no lab and the only tool at my disposal is my brain (me) and from self-examination of the (known) scientific evidence I offer a proposition for a model of what I consider a logical perspective in regard to self-awareness and self-interest.

One check point I use is David Bohm, who focused on the transition of energy from the Implicate Order (abstract potential) to the Explicate Order (expressed physical patterns).
Based on this starting point I see myself as a biological machine that only needs to process, sort, and categorize the incoming data, both by similarities (common denominators), and identification of differences (speciation) that can be stored in memory and can be represented as computable biochemical values .

When the brain forms an expectation and when the incoming data more or less meets the expected data-stream, an instant of cognition takes place and I (me) experience a fleeting internal image of what is going on outside my skull and body. Bohm envisioned this as an experiential holographic image. Hameroff describes this as a series of "bings* (cognition) in spacetime fabric.

In ORCH-OR Penrose agrees with Bohm on a secular form of communication (data-transfer) may apply to the entire universe as well as inside the brain.

Cold Plasma Systems and Their Application in Surface Treatments for Medicine
Abstract

In this paper, a review of cold plasma setups and the physical and chemical processes leading to the generation of active species is presented. The emphasis is given to the interaction of cold plasmas with materials used in medical applications, especially medical implants as well as live cells.

An overview of the different kinds of plasmas and techniques used for generation of active species, which significantly alter the surface properties of biomaterials is presented. The elemental processes responsible for the observed changes in the physio-chemical properties of surfaces when exposed to plasma are described. Examples of ongoing research in the field are given to illustrate the state-of-the-art at the more conceptual level.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8036572/#

Non-Thermal Plasma as an Alternative to Enhance the Early Growth Structures in Lentil Plants

Abstract
The scarcity and contamination of water, aggravated by the effects of Climate Change, endanger the food supply, cause health problems to humans, and are a critical concern. New research has been carried out to improve the quality of water used in the agricultural sector.

One of them is the technology of non-thermal plasma (NTP) generated by corona discharges using air as a working gas. In this study, the NTP is applied directly and causing the activation to three water sources: potable, wastewater from poultry farming, and rain, on the legume “lentil.”

The results show that the NTP applied to the different water conditions modifies the legume structure, obtaining a better germination and growth rate. In particular, it found that the best condition to stimulate the plant structure growth is using wastewater from poultry activities, which NTP activates.

Likewise, it identified the internalization of pathogenic microorganisms such as Escherichia coli and Salmonella typhimurium since the early development of the plant. The bacteria reduction after NTP application is detected due to the effect of the reactive species generated by the NTP. The NTP application for water activation can represent an alternative to solve the demand for food since the development of the structures of legumes, particularly of lentils, is promoted.

https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4395/12/12/2920

Nonthermal plasma
Description
A nonthermal plasma, cold plasma or non-equilibrium plasma is a plasma which is not in thermodynamic equilibrium, because the electron temperature is much hotter than the temperature of heavy species. Wikipedia

Does consciousness emerge at this level? Where does the brain begin to understand itself?

 

[James R]

Previously, I closed this thread (see post #93, above).

While it seems that there is a need for a dumping ground for Write4U's incoherent ramblings (at least while he remains a member here), I don't want to deprive our other members the opportunity to respond to him, by moving ongoing discussions to a locked thread.

Therefore, I am re-opening this thread, for now.

Truly, this thread is probably better suited to the Cesspool than Pseudoscience. Even the pseudoscience subforum, with its low standards, risks putting a false veneer that there might be something useful or coherent in Write4U's posts. But our policy is that once something hits the Cesspool, that's the end of posting to it.

I'm not sure how long this thread will last. If it goes much further beyond the bounds of ludicrous nonsense, I'll probably close it again.

(No offense to any of the posters who have patiently tried to get some sense out of Write4U, by the way. This mess isn't your fault.)

 

[James R]

While I'm here, I'll take a moment to comment on Write4U's latest ramblings.

And you cannot answer what it is and what it does unless you examine and test the mechanism that produces the emergent quality. We know the mechanism.

Write4U is claiming to know the "mechanism" behind consciousness, now.

I would like to point out that, of course, he doesn't know the mechanism, because nobody does. While it is conceivable that he is the first to discover the mechanism, that is highly unlikely. Besides, he hasn't produced anything, so far, on how consciousness emerges as a result of his proposed "mechanism".

I take it that Write4U believes that if he says the word "microtubule" often enough, people will start to believe that he has found the "mechanism" for consciousness. They won't. What is needed here is science, and Write4U only has his beliefs.

Write4U:

But at what level does it still operate logically? That is the current research.

And that is what I am trying to do.

Don't kid yourself. You are not doing research.

But I have no lab and the only tool at my disposal is my brain (me) and from self-examination of the (known) scientific evidence I offer a proposition for a model of what I consider a logical perspective in regard to self-awareness and self-interest.

In other words, you have a guess - or a faith, or a religion - that, for some bizarre reason you think is "logical", and that's all.

One check point I use is David Bohm, who focused on the transition of energy from the Implicate Order (abstract potential) to the Explicate Order (expressed physical patterns).

That's pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo, not science.

Based on this starting point I see myself as a biological machine that only needs to process, sort, and categorize the incoming data, both by similarities (common denominators), and identification of differences (speciation) that can be stored in memory and can be represented as computable biochemical values .

Pure waffle. "Identification of difference" is not "speciation". Why do you just make shit up?

There's no such thing as a "computable biochemical value" unless, possibly, that's just some kind of obscurantist synonym for the more straightforward word "number".

When the brain forms an expectation and when the incoming data more or less meets the expected data-stream, an instant of cognition takes place and I (me) experience a fleeting internal image of what is going on outside my skull and body.

Certainly, it seems that all your data streams are fleeting.

Bohm envisioned this as an experiential holographic image.

Did he envision that, or is it just you?

Hameroff describes this as a series of "bings* (cognition) in spacetime fabric.

No. He doesn't.

In ORCH-OR Penrose agrees with Bohm on a secular form of communication (data-transfer) may apply to the entire universe as well as inside the brain.

What is a "secular" form of communication? Why "secular"?

Are you saying that the "entire universe" engages in "secular communication"? What is that supposed to mean?

Cold Plasma Systems and Their Application in Surface Treatments for Medicine
Abstract

Another completely irrelevant article.

Non-Thermal Plasma as an Alternative to Enhance the Early Growth Structures in Lentil Plants

And another.

Does consciousness emerge at this level?

What "level"? You haven't listed any "levels".

Where does the brain begin to understand itself?

I thought you said you already know the mechanism.

Can't you stay consistent even in the course of single post? (And I don't mean consistently loopy.)

What's the matter with you?

 

[Write4U]

Write4U is claiming to know the "mechanism" behind consciousness, now.

Not worthy of a response. Try again.

Pure waffle. "Identification of difference" is not "speciation". Why do you just make shit up?

Not worthy of response. Try again.

Can't you stay consistent even in the course of single post? (And I don't mean consistently loopy.)
What's the matter with you?

Not worthy of response. Try again.

 

[Write4U]

That's pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo, not science.

And your qualification to judge David Bohm is based on the knowledge you possess?

Certainly, it seems that all your data streams are fleeting.

Even your data streams are fleeting. Although your prejudice makes it seem, you are in a rut .

Are you saying that the "entire universe" engages in "secular communication"? What is that supposed to mean?

And what are you saying, other than ad hominem?

W4U said:
Non-Thermal Plasma as an Alternative to Enhance the Early Growth Structures in Lentil Plants

And another.

I guess you missed the "Growth" part, the part (mitosis) that is controlled by microtubules.

W4U said:
Does consciousness emerge at this level?

What "level"? You haven't listed any "levels".

Penrose and Hameroff suspect that nano-scale microtubules operate at quantum level and that consciousness emerges from an orchestrated activity within that substrate.

W4U said:
Where does the brain begin to understand itself?

I thought you said you already know the mechanism.

We know the mechanism, we don't know all the mechanics, yet.

That is why I am trying to assist in identifying and discussing everything that is associated with microtubules.
IMO, when we know all the functions that microtubules are capable of , we may just arrive at a point where the common denominators begin to make sense in modeling the emergence of the conscious self as a biological form of evolved sensory data processing that is apparent in ALL LIFE on earth.

 

[Write4U]

Note that the current AI copies the known human brain processes.

AI Memory Mirrors Human Brain
FeaturedNeuroscience, December 18, 2023

Summary: Researchers unveiled a significant similarity between AI memory processing and human hippocampal functions. This discovery, bridging AI and neuroscience, highlights a parallel in memory consolidation – a process crucial in transforming short-term to long-term memories – in both AI models and the human brain. Dec 18, 2023
https://neurosciencenews.com/ai-human-memory-agi-25381/#

And AI does not have the array of sensory receptors and surface area to process the data that humans do.

It's a matter of size:
into the gpt 4. IT Administrator Activating Modern Data Center Server with
Watch

The brain on that human is far more complex than the machine that surrounds him.
The Human Brain

We attempt to model AI to the human brain. Why? Well, the human brain is the most powerful mechanism for intelligence that we know, and it has been extensively studied over time.

Let's start with a simple truth: the human brain is much more complex than AI. Here's a surprising fact: unlike AI, the human brain does not use algorithms! Now, what's an algorithm? It's like a set of instructions for solving problems. So, the human brain, with its 86 billion neurons, doesn't follow a predetermined set of rules.

more...
https://hackernoon.com/ai-vs-the-human-brain-can-ai-beat-human-intelligence

 

[James R]

And your qualification to judge David Bohm is based on the knowledge you possess?

Yes.

Although your prejudice makes it seem, you are in a rut .

I'm post-judging here, not pre-judging. I read what you write. I assess it. I comment. The assessment happens after you write something, not before.

Do you understand?

And what are you saying, other than ad hominem?

I asked you two questions, there. Why don't you just answer them? (I think I know why.)

I guess you missed the "Growth" part, the part (mitosis) that is controlled by microtubules.

I'm sure that there's some invisible "connection" that you believe makes this relevant to something or other. What it might be, nobody else knows.

Penrose and Hameroff suspect that nano-scale microtubules operate at quantum level and that consciousness emerges from an orchestrated activity within that substrate.

What's "quantum level"? How many other levels are there?

We know the mechanism, we don't know all the mechanics, yet.

What's the mechanism, then?

That is why I am trying to assist in identifying and discussing everything that is associated with microtubules.

That's a waste of time. Only a tiny portion of "everything that is associated with microtubules" will have any application to the "mechanism" for consciousness - if there is, in fact, any application at all.

But, so far, you can't point to even one thing associated with microtubules that has any bearing on consciousness.

IMO, when we know all the functions that microtubules are capable of , we may just arrive at a point where the common denominators begin to make sense in modeling the emergence of the conscious self as a biological form of evolved sensory data processing that is apparent in ALL LIFE on earth.

You're telling me that you will need to discover "all the functions that microtubules are capable of" before you'll be able to say anything useful about their role in a mechanism for consciousness?

How long do you think that project will take you to complete?

And you're also saying that there are no guarantees that at the end of the project you'll actually have any mechanism for consciousness. Yet, paradoxically, here you are also claiming that you have one already.

It's a problem when you can't even be consistent about your claims in the course of a single post. Don't you think?

 

[James R]

Here's a surprising fact: unlike AI, the human brain does not use algorithms!

That sounds like a problem for you, Write4U.

Remember all those times you claimed that the universe is built from mathematical functions? You've claimed in the past that, actually, everything is a mathematical function.

So now there's this other guy telling you that the human brain doesn't use algorithms. How do you respond? Are algorithms mathematical functions? Does the brain use mathematical functions? If not, bang goes your mathematical universe hypothesis. Right?

 

[Write4U]

I'm sure that there's some invisible "connection" that you believe makes this relevant to something or other. What it might be, nobody else knows.

Oh, but you are wrong there.
Then I submit that you are limiting yourself on the subject of microtubules by fracturing the science.

What is mitosis (a microtubule function) but "complex growth" of an organism in response to a set of instructions in DNA.

Mitosis is a part of the cell cycle in which replicated chromosomes are separated into two new nuclei. Cell division by mitosis is an equational division which gives rise to genetically identical cells in which the total number of chromosomes is maintained. Mitosis is preceded by the S phase of interphase and is followed by telophase and cytokinesis; which divides.....Wikipedia

How do cells divide?

There are two types of cell division: mitosis and meiosis. Most of the time when people refer to “cell division,” they mean mitosis, the process of making new body cells.

.... more

Mitosis is a fundamental process for life. During mitosis, a cell duplicates all of its contents, including its chromosomes, and splits to form two identical daughter cells. Because this process is so critical, the steps of mitosis are carefully controlled by certain genes. When mitosis is not regulated correctly, health problems such as cancer can result.
https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/understanding/howgeneswork/cellsdivide/#

And the mitotic spindle that does the copying of genetic information consists of microtubules. A microtubule is a copy machine. But more interesting is the question of how does the machine know what to copy and how it codifies equational values that produce emotion.

Moreover, irreversible microtubule catastrophe can result in all kinds of functional disorders in addition to cancer which proves that microtubules do play essential roles that require calculation and equation..
Living organisms must be self-sufficient and that requires ability for dynamic growth and cell formation and means to capture energy. All this essential activity requires an extraordinary ability for information processing and transportation. I consider this fundamental biological data processing system to possess the necessary qualities for a title of a self-sustaining "quasi-intelligent" network.

It must be so, because we use human brain function mapping as a template for AI, with some remarkable results.

Intuitively, I like the image of a tree growth structure.

 

[Pinball1970]

I have to learn to check the sub forum before reading. Pseudoscience. It's fine. All good.

Carry on.

 

[Write4U]

What's "quantum level"? How many other levels are there?

According to you , that must be something you know about, no? If you have a thorough knowledge of quantum fields, why don't you explain it to me ?!
I used this as my introduction to Field Theory

 

[Pinball1970]

"If you have a thorough knowledge of quantum fields, why don't you explain it to me."

In order to understand QFT you need to have an understanding of QT, in order to understand QT you need to understand Calculus and linear algebra.
Students would normally have mastered classical mechanics before taking courses in quantum mechanics.
That is a lot of hard work and reading not gained by watching YouTube videos.

 

[exchemist]

According to you , that must be something you know about, no? If you have a thorough knowledge of quantum fields, why don't you explain it to me ?!
I used this as my introduction to Field Theory

"field" ≠ "level"

 

[Write4U]

W4U said: "If you have a thorough knowledge of quantum fields, why don't you explain it to me."

In order to understand QFT you need to have an understanding of QT, in order to understand QT you need to understand Calculus and linear algebra.

And that does not explain anything other than that linear algebra and calculus are just branches of mathematics that are designed for specific universal properties. Although the symbolic language of inherent values

That is a lot of hard work and reading not gained by watching YouTube videos.

It is true that learning the symbolic descriptive language of the properties in various fields require long hard study, but the operations of Calculus and Algebra use the same mathematical functions as say "double entry bookkeeping" of relational values like the debit and credit credit columns in a journal.
And if you wish to diminish the difficulty of "symbolic recording of transaction involving capital values", the title of CPA takes 6 years to achieve, just about the same as the other mathematical disciplines.

The beauty of Mathematics is that except at Planck scale, all functional interaction of expressed physical values must follow the same logically permittive and restrictive mathematical functional "guiding principles" that can be categorized, symbolized, and described with human maths.

Decoding the Equation: Does Coding Require Calculus?
By Josh Knell

The world of coding is where imagination meets innovation and possibilities are woven into lines of code! Whether you're a wide-eyed beginner taking your first steps into this digital realm or a curious mind seeking to unravel the secrets of coding, you've embarked on an exhilarating journey of creation.

As you delve into the fascinating realm of programming languages, you may find yourself pondering a question that often echoes through the minds of beginners: "Does coding require calculus?" Today, we'll embark on an exciting exploration, peeling back the layers of this question to reveal the hidden connections between coding and the captivating world of calculus.

Generally, coding doesn’t require calculus. But some emerging fields of programming like machine learning and robotics require you to have a firm understanding of calculus. But if you want to opt for web or mobile application development, there’s absolutely no need to learn calculus - just focus on your problem solving skills and you’re good to go without the complicated equations of math.

https://www.bloomtech.com/article/does-coding-require-calculus#

Natural selection (evolution) does the rest.

And an innate self-referential "understanding of natural mathematical patterns" is demonstrated at all levels of complexity in life on earth.
Just look at the congregate of all evolved extraordinary adaptions and abilities that require generic mathematics as demonstrated in most all Life on earth.

Spider Silk: Thousands of NanoFilaments and Dollops of Sticky Glue
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/82355225.pdf

What is it that this spider does not understand about the mathematics of web building?
It's ability is programmed over time .....yes..... that's how you learn, conscious or not.

 

[Write4U]

"field" ≠ "level"

Therefore ......?

Let's start with a simple truth: the human brain is much more complex than AI. Here's a surprising fact: unlike AI, the human brain does not use algorithms! Now, what's an algorithm? It's like a set of instructions for solving problems. So, the human brain, with its 86 billion neurons, doesn't follow a predetermined set of rules.

Interestingly, biologists often use the term "problem-solving" abilities for even the most primitive and simple organisms (plants) that evolve to become more and more sophisticated in that area of data processing that suits the organism's internal state best for expressed survival behavior patterns

Question:
Can variable mathematical algorithms be substituted with variable biochemical neural "environments" (fields) that help in predicting what is expected next, i.e. subconscious homeostasis that monitors the organism, or conscious exteroception that triggers biochemical "action potentials".
Bacteria communicate via "quorum sensing", a biochemical language, unique to each species of bacteria. But that is still based on the mathematical interaction of chemical values, no?

I still believe in a model that comes down to generic maths, the abstract universal language addressing the behavior of relational values in the context of general and specific behavior patterns.