Write4U's stream of consciousness

[Write4U]

Happy eigenstates, Write4U...

Yes, I see the argument of time as an independent "dimension" apart from "change", but as I explained I do not agree with these conclusions.

From my perspective that Time is an emergent abstract measurement, I believe they have it backward.

Analyzing the similarities between the accepted concepts of time and consciousness, especially in the context of how each is framed around a central ”now” moment, provides an interesting philosophical exploration.

Both concepts are fundamental to human experience and are often defined in relation to a present moment that divides past and future, or recollection and anticipation states:

Time = (Present, Between Past & Future)
Consciousness = (Now, Between Recollection & Anticipation)

I believe this should be interpreted and read as:
"Time did not discover consciousness, consciousness discovered time."

Assuming that time for this universe began at the BB, it becomes clear that Time is result of the appearance, and chronology of the inflating universe. But consciousness in some form did not emerge until the first biological cells that were capable of sensory observation and later evolved into complex environmental data processing systems, offering an evolutionary advantage

This also agrees with the concept of "natural evolutionary creative processes" as so eloquently explained by Robert Hazen, as well as the biological evolution from unconscious simple responsive patterns into conscious complex cognitive patterns as proposed by ORCH-OR.

An excellent and entertaining NOVA presentation is on Youtube, is designed as a brief history of the growing utility we receive from applied mathematics, including landing on Mars, using universally known mathematics to "plot" a trajectory.

 

[Write4U]

after you so badly misread my intent here.

Only to tell you that you had misread my concept of Time. No prejudice intended.

Replying as I am reading your post.

Now, me being me, as I type this whilst simultaneously "cooling off", I'm starting to find excuses for you. Since everyone always gangs up on you, this is probably the only way you know to respond. If I were you, I would be extremely paranoid and defensive, too. So, yeah, we'll go with that.

Thank you for that insight. I am sorry if I sounded antagonistic.

I have read the rest and will need some time to respond. Actually, I am excited to find a person who is willing to discuss this deep existential subject. I'll be careful.

 

[origin]

Since everyone always gangs up on you, this is probably the only way you know to respond.

Everyone tends to 'gang up' on W4U for a reason. The easiest way to understand this reason is to simply engage him in a discussion. After a while you will also be pulling out you hair at his bad faith arguments and obtuse replies.

 

[Write4U]

After a while you will also be pulling out you hair at his bad faith arguments and obtuse replies.

No, that is not true. I argue from good faith in science, albeit not necessarily in a scientific way.

And, as I predicted, after a few years of advancing the merits of microtubules against the most insulting opposition, we are finally beginning to recognize the microtubule networks as essential in data transmission and as a candidate for the substrate from which consciousness emerges.

Of course this is obtuse, ask Randwolf, he may be able to answer more technical questions in depth.
I only seek clarity in understanding and please don't play spoilsport.

 

[exchemist]

I was working with fractals and stumbled across a paper from a couple of months ago that simply screamed Write4U, so I thought I'd chum the waters a bit:

"This white paper embarks on an interdisciplinary journey to explore the hypothesis that Time is not merely a passive dimension but a conscious entity, intricately intertwined with the volume of the universe and the essence of consciousness. Drawing upon principles from quantum mechanics, neurobiology, and philosophical inquiry, this paper proposes a notion of Time as a dynamic, high-frequency waveform influenced by gravity and observable through its interactions with consciousness. The paper further investigates the role of biological processes, specifically within brain neurons’ microtubules, in mirroring Time’s complex nature."

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...b40d681bed776ae307a253/FOR-THE-TIME-BEING.pdf

I only read the abstract plus a couple more pages - not what I was looking for, but it seems to be in Write4U's wheelhouse - might even induce Nirvana. In any event, the reaction should be interesting.

Happy eigenstates, Write4U...

I thought this “white paper”, (whatever that is - I only know its meaning in the British parliamentary sense) was a hilarious spoof. The author’s name is a bit of a giveaway, surely?

 

[James R]

Stay on topic!

A..hahahahahaha! HAhahaha!

Seriously? That, from you, of all people?

This thread has no topic other than where your mind rambles to next. Don't pretend there's a topic here.

 

[Write4U]

A..hahahahahaha! HAhahaha!

I'm glad you appreciate my humor.

Wrong again. Self-organisation is not the cause of water turning to ice, or steam to water.

You refuse to look at things from my perspective. Self-organization is not the cause, but is the mathematical ordering of the molecular pattern

This may be of interest:

How water turns into ice —with quantum accuracy

“The magic is that because of some physical principles, the machine is able to extrapolate what happens in a relatively small number of configurations of a small collection of atoms to the countless arrangements of a much bigger system,” Car said.

more.....https://www.princeton.edu/news/2022/08/09/how-water-turns-ice-quantum-accuracy

 

[Write4U]

I keep running across these tantalizing papers, that seem to confirm mathematics as an underlying property of the universe.

Mechanics, Mathematics

Mechanics is the area of study in physics and mathematics that examines how forces affect a body and its motion. It deals with the movement of physical objects and the relationship between force, mass, and motion. So mechanics studies stationary objects, where the forces acting over them are in equilibrium.

https://www.vaia.com/en-us/explanations/math/mechanics-maths/#

 

[exchemist]

I'm glad you appreciate my humor.

You refuse to look at things from my perspective. Self-organization is not the cause, but is the mathematical ordering of the molecular pattern

This may be of interest:

How water turns into ice —with quantum accuracy

more.....https://www.princeton.edu/news/2022/08/09/how-water-turns-ice-quantum-accuracy

....."because of some physical principles"......

the AI machine can model the process using mathematics.

 

[Write4U]

....."because of some physical principles"......
the AI machine can model the process using mathematics.

But I am not talking about an AI machine. I am talking about "quantum accuracy" and quantum speaks about values, not physics.

Quantum Fields DON’T exist!

What is a Quantum Field?

To understand why a quantum field does not exist physically, we need to understand what a quantum field exactly is. A lot of people depict quantum fields as these vibrational things in space moving up and down in unison. While this is a pretty picture, it does not fully describe what a quantum field is and gives the false impression that quantum fields are physical things in space.

A quantum field is just a mathematical function that assigns every spacetime point some mathematical quantity.

a value....

There is more to a quantum field than that (like second quantization), but that is the basic structure of a quantum field. One example of a quantum field is a scalar field. Scalar fields assign every spacetime event a single number.

a single value .....

Quantum fields can be pictured as waves, but they are mathematical waves. The statement that quantum fields do not exist is not claiming that they are a fabrication, or that particle physics is wrong. The statement just means that quantum fields are not physical objects.

https://medium.com/@thisscience1/quantum-fields-dont-exist-5a11baf9cebc#

 

[Write4U]

As promised, here is a brief attempt to explain my POV. And suggest the same model, but based on Mathematics. not Time.

From the article.

2. Time & Consciousness
Analyzing the similarities between the accepted concepts of time and consciousness, especially in the context of how each is framed around a central ”now” moment, provides an interesting philosophical exploration. Both concepts are fundamental to human experience and are often defined in relation to a present moment that divides past and future, or recollection and anticipation states.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/377724883_FOR_THE_TIME_BEING

Seems to me a modern version of "Father Time" (Chronos)

In psychology, mental time travel is the capacity to mentally reconstruct personal events from the past (episodic memory) as well as to imagine possible scenarios in the future (episodic foresight/episodic future thinking). The term was coined by Thomas Suddendorf and Michael Corballis,[1] building on Endel Tulving's work on episodic memory[2] (Tulving proposed the alternative term chronesthesia.[3]).

Mental time travel has been studied by psychologists, cognitive neuroscientists, philosophers and in a variety of other academic disciplines.[4][5] Major areas of interest include the nature of the relationship between memory and foresight,[6][7] the evolution of the ability (including whether it is uniquely human or shared with other animals),[8][9] its development in young children,[10][11] its underlying brain mechanisms,[12][13] as well as its potential links to consciousness,[14] the self,[15] and free will.[16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_time_travel

OK, from what I understand, If you replace the word "Time" with "Mathematics", it will all begin to make sense (pun intended).
My perspective does not require an abstract "conscious intelligence" (irreducible complexity) at the beginning. ID is based on that model.
My perspective requires only an abstract "ordering quasi-intelligence" (evolving mathematical complexity) from the beginning.
The Conscious part of the ability to "relate" to these mathematical laws comes much later

Many animals use mathematics, without knowing it. Some animals use mathematics knowingly.

In Eukaryote life on earth, consciousness emerged with the growth and evolution of sensory cellular refinements and speciation. Hazen is confident there is other life in the universe, based on the abundance of chemistry distribution in the universe and the relatively few biochemical processes necessary for "living organisms" with evolving abilities for eventual emergent "conscious awareness".

Question: Could we mathematically time-travel? Are we not already doing that?

 

[exchemist]

But I am not talking about an AI machine. I am talking about "quantum accuracy" and quantum speaks about values, not physics.

Quantum theory is a theory of physics, not mathematics. Like other theories of physics it uses mathematics to model physically observed effects.

 

[Pinball1970]

Quantum theory is a theory of physics, not mathematics. Like other theories of physics it uses mathematics to model physically observed effects.

I admire your endurance.

 

[exchemist]

I admire your endurance.

Haha, my policy is occasionally to correct obvious errors for the sake of any other readers, but to do so very briefly and on no account to attempt to engage in - inevitably futile - discussion.

 

[Pinball1970]

Haha, my policy is occasionally to correct obvious errors for the sake of any other readers, but to do so very briefly and on no account to attempt to engage in - inevitably futile - discussion.

Best policy I think.

 

[Write4U]

Quantum theory is a theory of physics, not mathematics. Like other theories of physics it uses mathematics to model physically observed effects.

Of course it uses mathematics to self-organize (model itself) into physically expressed patterns..

Is a quantum field a physical thing?

What is considered a physical object?

In common usage and classical mechanics, a physical object or physical body (or simply an object or body) is a collection of matter within a defined contiguous boundary in three-dimensional space.

A field is not a collection of matter. A quantum is not a physical object.

Quantum state

In quantum physics, a quantum state is a mathematical entity that embodies the knowledge of a quantum system. Quantum mechanics specifies the construction, evolution, and measurement of a quantum state.

The result is a quantum-mechanical prediction for the system represented by the state. Knowledge of the quantum state, and the quantum mechanical rules for the system's evolution in time, exhausts all that can be known about a quantum system.

And all that can be known about a quantum system is via mathematical symbolism, because that's all there is.

Quantum states may be defined differently for different kinds of systems or problems. Two broad categories are:
a) wave functions describing quantum systems using position or momentum variables and
b) the more abstract vector quantum states.

Historical, educational, and application-focused problems typically feature wave functions; modern professional physics uses the abstract vector states. In both categories, quantum states divide into pure versus mixed states, or into * "coherent states and incoherent states"*. Categories with special properties include stationary states for time independence and quantum vacuum states in quantum field theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_state
* i.e. "mathematically ordered and chaotically disordered"

Quantum_vacuum_state

In

quantum field theory, the quantum vacuum state (also called the quantum vacuum or vacuum state) is the quantum state with the lowest possible energy. Generally, it contains no physical particles. The term zero-point field is sometimes used as a synonym for the vacuum state of a quantized field which is completely individual.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_vacuum_state

The abstract foundation of universal existence is best described mathematically, because that IS how it functions, a logical deterministic chronology, starting from a single "value", or more poetically, "excellence", or religiously, "god" (which does not meet the requirement of simplest complexity).

 

[Write4U]

And to complete the argument;

Measurement in quantum mechanics

In quantum physics, a measurement is the testing or manipulation of a physical system to yield a numerical result.

A fundamental feature of quantum theory is that the predictions it makes are probabilistic. The procedure for finding a probability involves combining a quantum state, which mathematically describes a quantum system, with a mathematical representation of the measurement to be performed on that system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_in_quantum_mechanics

If Nature expresses itself mathematically in countless ways and we can manipulate physical mechanics mathematically, it becomes obvious that Natural phenomena rest on the mathematical conditions and functions naturally present in the physical environment.

The point is that there is no mystique associated with mathematics, other than "why do mathematics work so well?", as if that is a flaw rather than proof of the abstract power of logical-mathematical mechanics.
Mathematics works so well because they ARE part of the universal equation.

Humans did not invent Universal mathematics, we discovered them, and that made science possible.
Until then, science relied on pure physics or Alchemy.

al·che·my
/ˈalkəmē/
noun
alchemy

the medieval forerunner of chemistry, based on the supposed transformation of matter. It was concerned particularly with attempts to convert base metals into gold or to find a universal elixir.

1. "occult sciences, such as alchemy and astrology"
   
   Similar: chemistry, magic, sorcery, witchcraft, enchantment
2. a seemingly magical process of transformation, creation, or combination.
3. "finding the person who's right for you requires a very subtle alchemy"

Oxford Dictionary.

Ever since mathematics was introduced, Physics became controllable and predictable. What more do you want?

 

[James R]

Write4U:

Of course it uses mathematics to self-organize (model itself) into physically expressed patterns.

Yes, quantum theory "uses mathematics". It's a theory, which means it is conceptual, just like mathematics.

Quantum theory doesn't "self-organize". Human beings organise it. No humans = no quantum theories.

Is a quantum field a physical thing?

Probably not. It is a useful theoretical device for describing physical objects and interactions, though.

The same applies to electric fields, or gravitational fields, or magnetic fields.

What is considered a physical object?

At the macroscopic level, a good rule of thumb would be: if it can be touched, it is a physical object. Thus, a tennis ball is a physical object.

At a microscopic level, a physical object consists of something made of matter. So, an electron is a physical object, for instance. It turns out that macroscopic physical objects that can be touched are made of very large numbers of microscopic bits of matter.

A field is not a collection of matter.

Correct. Fields are concepts.

A quantum is not a physical object.

A quantum of what?

And all that can be known about a quantum system is via mathematical symbolism, because that's all there is.

Wrong. For instance, you are a quantum system. You know a lot about yourself without ever having to refer to any mathematical symbolism.

The abstract foundation of universal existence is best described mathematically, because that IS how it functions, a logical deterministic chronology, starting from a single "value", or more poetically, "excellence", or religiously, "god" (which does not meet the requirement of simplest complexity).

Word salad.

And to complete the argument;

Oh, is this mess supposed to be an argument for something? For what, exactly?

If Nature expresses itself mathematically in countless ways and we can manipulate physical mechanics mathematically...

We can't. Mathematics, being conceptual, cannot be used to manipulate any physical system.

Mathematics works so well because they ARE part of the universal equation.

What universal equation? There is no such thing.

Humans did not invent Universal mathematics, we discovered them, and that made science possible.

Universal mathematics has not been invented. There is no such thing.

Until then, science relied on pure physics or Alchemy.

You're just making shit up.

Ever since mathematics was introduced, Physics became controllable and predictable.

What do you mean by "controlling" Physics?

Physics is a field of study, you understand (?)

What more do you want?

I don't think you're able to provide anything I might want.

 

[Write4U]

Write4U:
Yes, quantum theory "uses mathematics". It's a theory, which means it is conceptual, just like mathematics.

That is a useless statement. Everything humans think is conceptual.

Quantum theory doesn't "self-organize". Human beings organise it. No humans = no quantum theories.

Chaos theory explains the self-organization of regular patterns in chaotic environments.

How nature's patterns form
by University of Arizona

This image shows the pattern on the head of a sunflower as generated by a mathematical model of plant growth.
Credit: Matt Pennybacker, University of Arizona.

Patterns arise when the symmetry of a system is broken, Newell said. The similarity in patterns from system to system occur when the systems have similar symmetry, rather than because the systems are made from the same materials.

"The mathematics elegantly captures the fact that pattern structure depends more on shared geometrical symmetries than material properties, because the simplified equations for all these very different situations turn out to be the same," he said.

Newell said, "Mathematics is like a good poem, which separates the superfluous from the essentials and fuses the essentials into a kernel of truth."

more....
https://phys.org/news/2011-02-nature-patterns.html#

Probably not. It is a useful theoretical device for describing physical objects and interactions, though.

Have you ever asked why it is useful in describing the natural phenomena?

The same applies to electric fields, or gravitational fields, or magnetic fields.

Ok, we agree.

At the macroscopic level, a good rule of thumb would be: if it can be touched, it is a physical object. Thus, a tennis ball is a physical object.

What makes it a physical object? Is the ball's roundness a physical requirement? What is causal to a tennis ball being a spherical object?

At a microscopic level, a physical object consists of something made of matter. So, an electron is a physical object, for instance. It turns out that macroscopic physical objects that can be touched are made of very large numbers of microscopic bits of matter.

Bingo!
Physics emerge from non-physical chaotic fields, as described in Chaos Theory.

Correct. Fields are concepts.

I disagree. Fields exist without human conceptualization. Take humans away and nothing changes.

A quantum of what?

IMO, that touches on the very crux.
As I understand it, a "quantum" is a single unique value that is mathematically related to other "quanta"

Wrong. For instance, you are a quantum system. You know a lot about yourself without ever having to refer to any mathematical symbolism.

I agree, but that is a false argument. My body knows a lot about itself at quantum field scale (note I referred to the human biome as a quantum field) and that process already exists at "fine grain" spacetime fabric, but my conscious brain can only process data at very selective gross sensory scales.

Word salad.

Feast your eyes on a literary delight....

Oh, is this mess supposed to be an argument for something? For what, exactly?

Naturally occurring mathematics.

We can't. Mathematics, being conceptual, cannot be used to manipulate any physical system.

Human maths are the symbolization of discovered natural mathematical processes that allow regular patterns to be formed, which are evident everywhere starting with the Table of Elements. .

And I like Tegmark's perspective that reality fundamentally consists of dense mathematical patterns expressed and measurable as gross physical objects and behaviors.

What universal equation? There is no such thing.

Tegmark believes that it exists and will be just another mathematical equation.

Universal mathematics has not been invented. There is no such thing.

Life on earth used the Fibonacci sequence long before man appeared on the scene.

You're just making shit up

No, I try to look a little deeper than man's extraordinary ability to understand the mathematical nature of things, rather than say "bacteria", that communicate via mathematical chemistry, aka. "quorum sensing".

What do you mean by "controlling" Physics?

It is a mathematical function that controls pattern formation.

Physics is a field of study, you understand (?)

Yes, the ability to observe and measure the self-ordering mathematical properties appearing in nature.

I don't think you're able to provide anything I might want.

I am only expressing my perspective on the Science I quote in support of the mathematical regularities that seem to pervade all of spacetime.

 

[exchemist]

Quantum state
And all that can be known about a quantum system is via mathematical symbolism, because that's all there is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_state
* i.e. "mathematically ordered and chaotically disordered"

The bit in red here seems not to be a quote at all, but made up by you - and ballocks. A mixed state is not "chaotically disordered".