Write4U's stream of consciousness

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someone like Write4U on a science site who takes advantage of someone like me
a) How have I taken advantage of you?
b) How have you helped me other than subjecting me to ad hominem?

It is you who has behaved in an uncomely manner.

But this one is a hopeless case and anything interesting he may once have had to say was said years ago. Now it’s just random stuff off the internet

No it isn't random stuff. You just fail to see the common denominators. You look for differences,
I look for similarities.
 
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"Duration" is simply a property of "change". Whether you want to say "result of duration of X" or "result of the colour of X", you're still saying that it is the result of (some aspect of) X. So, yes, you did say that it is the result of change, albeit one property thereof.
To make my position clear as I understand it, the emergence of time is a "by-product' of change.
Time becomes explicated during change of anything. Before then, time does not yet exist for any future event or chronology.

I cannot see time as a dimension that reaches into the future. It simply cannot be, because "in the future" there has been no duration of any kind. How can time exist for a non-existent chronological duration ?
This is not what Tegmark means when he says that the universe is mathematical, though. We've been through that almost ad nauseam. And still here you are with that same strawman.
So I'll leave you to it.
We haven't been "through" this at all. There has been mention, but nothing definitive.

Mathematical universe hypothesis
Description[edit]
Tegmark's MUH is the hypothesis that our external physical reality is a mathematical structure.[3] That is, the physical universe is not merely described by mathematics, but is mathematics specifically, a mathematical structure. Mathematical existence equals physical existence, and all structures that exist mathematically exist physically as well. Observers, including humans, are "self-aware substructures (SASs)". In any mathematical structure complex enough to contain such substructures, they "will subjectively perceive themselves as existing in a physically 'real' world".[4]
The theory can be considered a form of Pythagoreanism or Platonism in that it proposes the existence of mathematical entities; a form of mathematicism in that it denies that anything exists except mathematical objects; and a formal expression of ontic structural realism.
Tegmark claims that the hypothesis has no free parameters and is not observationally ruled out. Thus, he reasons, it is preferred over other theories-of-everything by Occam's Razor.
Tegmark also considers augmenting the MUH with a second assumption, the computable universe hypothesis (CUH), which says that the mathematical structure that is our external physical reality is defined by computable functions.[5]
more....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_universe_hypothesis

Please explain why Tegmark's mathematical universe is not mathematical in essence and where I am wrong in my narrative?
 
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To make my position clear as I understand it, the emergence of time is a "by-product' of change.
Time becomes explicated during change of anything. Before then, time does not yet exist for any future event or chronology.

I cannot see time as a dimension that reaches into the future. It simply cannot be, because "in the future" there has been no duration of any kind. How can time exist for a non-existent chronological duration ?
Your personal incredulity aside, I suggest you dig in to the idea of the block universe theory.
We haven't been "through" this at all. There has been mention, but nothing definitive.
We have discussed your failure to understand what Tegmark is proposing with his MUH, and your misunderstanding of it.
Please explain why Tegmark's mathematical universe is not mathematical in essence and where I am wrong in my narrative?
As said, I (and others) have done this to exhaustion with you. No more.
 
We have discussed your failure to understand what Tegmark is proposing with his MUH, and your misunderstanding of it.
But you don't agree with Tegmark either, so what does discussing my perspective resolve?
When I get Tegmark right, I'll be getting it wrong?

Nobody is examining what it is Tegmark is proposing and I am not talking about a multiverse. That is not required for establishing a fundamental mathematical aspect to this universe.

And I am still waiting for anybody to offer a logical alternative hypothesis to a "mathematical universe".
AFAIK there isn't a comprehensive "ordering" theory aside from mathematical logic, that offers a system that allows for constructing a TOE.

And I am not just talking about numbers, but about anything that has a "value" that can be quantified in some relational way.
I ran across this interesting article about philosophy of mathematics.

Can science work without mathematical formulations?
Owing to the probabilistic nature of most generalizations in evolutionary biology, it is impossible to apply Popper’s method of falsification for theory testing because a particular case of a seeming refutation of a certain law may not be anything but an exception, as are common in biology.
Most theories in biology are based not on laws but on concepts. Examples of such concepts are, for instance, selection, speciation, phylogeny, competition, population, imprinting, adaptedness, biodiversity, development, ecosystem, and function.
Is it possible that a scientific theory cannot be supported by any mathematical formulations? Or stated differently: Can a field of knowledge be a field of science if it does not contain any mathematical formulations?
https://philosophy.stackexchange.co...ience-work-without-mathematical-formulations#

Deterministic system
In mathematics, computer science and physics, a deterministic system is a system in which no randomness is involved in the development of future states of the system.[1] A deterministic model will thus always produce the same output from a given starting condition or initial state.[2]
In physics[edit]

The trajectory of a projectile launched from a cannon is modeled by an ODE that is derived from Newton's second law.
Physical laws that are described by differential equations represent deterministic systems, even though the state of the system at a given point in time may be difficult to describe explicitly.
In quantum mechanics, the Schrödinger equation, which describes the continuous time evolution of a system's wave function, is deterministic. However, the relationship between a system's wave function and the observable properties of the system appears to be non-deterministic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic_system#

Starting from the assumption that "determinism" is the purview of mathematics and whereas the occurrence of a "probability" is more or less random, the actual physical interaction when it occurs, is mathematically measurable.

Question: Is a super-nova a mathematical event creating chaos?

The moment "input" and "processing" of information results in an "output", the output is a measurable and codifiable mathematical "result".

I would like to know why this would not be so for all natural interactions of relational values.

Your personal incredulity aside, I suggest you dig in to the idea of the block universe theory.

The block universe theory, where time travel is possible but time passing is an illusion!
236b8b3c232164552a40fc281900b354


I agree with a Block Universe representing the duration of the existence of the universe from "birth" (BB) to "present", but not in the "future".
How far into the future does the block universe exist? Was there ever NO block universe? Before the BB?
What does "end of time" mean? The end of a block universe that never existed?


What I do recognize is Bohm's Implicate order extending into a future "now", but is as yet "unexpressed in physical reality".

Note that "potential" is defined as "that which may become reality". IOW a future block universe is potentially (mathematically) Implicated from today's block universe, but not yet physically Explicated.

And I also disagree with the notion that time passes as if it has a physical existence into the future. Time is not a physical object. Time is a measurement that emerges with the duration of a chronology, such as the duration of an extant physical block universe from the "beginning" BB, to present day. But not into the not-yet-existent future.

Question: How can a 4D block universe be measured with 2D slices of time in the future? If time cannot be measured about a physical chronology, what single physical object is there to measure?
(see Causal Dynamical Triangulation for a concept of an "unfolding universe".

 
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[...] Nobody is examining what it is Tegmark is proposing and I am not talking about a multiverse. That is not required for establishing a fundamental mathematical aspect to this universe. [...]

While a "multiverse" certainly isn't necessary for mathematicism conceptions in general, Tegmark's parallel universes view does seem to be the driving motivation for steering him in that direction. The simplistic, ordinary block-time depiction (intended for a single universe) doesn't work as the "mathematical structure" for a multiverse. Thus, his expansion to some grander complex of that (and into structural realism, IF that really is a broader category that his MUH slots under).

Max Tegmark: A mathematical structure is an abstract, immutable entity... If history were a movie, the structure would correspond not to a single frame of it, but to the entire videotape.

Consider, for example, a world made up of pointlike particles moving around in three-dimensional space. In four-dimensional spacetime --the bird perspective-- these particle trajectories resemble a tangle of spaghetti.

If the frog [perspective] sees a particle moving with constant velocity, the bird sees a straight strand of uncooked spaghetti. If the frog sees a pair of orbiting particles, the bird sees two spaghetti strands intertwined like a double helix. To the frog, the world is described by Newton's laws of motion and gravitation. To the bird, it is described by the geometry of the pasta --a mathematical structure.

The frog itself is merely a thick bundle of pasta, whose highly complex intertwining corresponds [in is view] to a cluster of particles that store and process information. Our universe is far more complicated than this example, and scientists do not yet know to what, if any, mathematical structure it corresponds.
 
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[...] The block universe theory, where time travel is possible but time passing is an illusion!

[...] How far into the future does the block universe exist? Was there ever NO block universe? Before the BB? [...]

Causation should not be treated as more fundamental than existence (which is the potential fallacy that "Why is there something rather than nothing?" falls out of.)

As Tegmark says below, "mathematical structures" are not created.

Max Tegmark: [...] since mathematical structures are not “created” and don’t exist “somewhere” — they just exist.

Stephen Hawking once asked, “What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?” In the case of the mathematical cosmos, there is no fire-breathing required, since the point is not that a mathematical structure describes a universe, but that it is a universe.

The existence of the level-IV multiverse also answers a confounding question emphasised by the physicist John Wheeler: even if we found equations that describe our universe perfectly, then why these particular equations, not others? The answer is that the other equations govern parallel universes, and that our universe has these particular equations because they are statistically likely, given the distribution of mathematical structures that can support observers like us.
--Shut up and calculate (2007 paper)​

[...] I agree with a Block Universe representing the duration of the existence of the universe from "birth" (BB) to "present", but not in the "future". [...]

With respect to a growing block universe (GBU) -- and note that with GBU we are jumping out of the context in the section above... We could as much be residing in its deep past as at the point where the next true "future" moment or new state of the structure is being added. In which case, "our own POV future" spanning part of a mere lifetime [still] already exists ahead of where we're at (in this subjectively experienced instant).

If the universe has an infinite number of different states (its development never ends), then a GBU might be necessary, because infinity cannot be a completed condition (as opposed to a continuing process) without contradiction (it would instead be finite, no matter how large the quantity). That might be circumvented by the "future" end of a block-universe looping back to serve as its beginning (the cosmos' heat-death in the remote future "somehow" becoming the background for the Big Bang -- or alternatively, serving as the genesis of a new, different universe joining Tegmark's pantheon of parallel ones.)

IOW, "infinite" as a never-ending sequence or count sort of entails a GBU if kicking it out of its usual abstract context to our concrete circumstances.
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The frog itself is merely a thick bundle of pasta, whose highly complex intertwining corresponds [in is view] to a cluster of particles that store and process information. Our universe is far more complicated than this example, and scientists do not yet know to what, if any, mathematical structure it corresponds.
Thank you for that example.

It is true that from a subjective human (or frog) perspective the universe is extremely complicated, but that's due to the large number of known and unknown causal inputs, and is not related to the simple objective mathematical functions that guide the explicated reality itself regardless of any observervation.

As Tegmark says below, "mathematical structures" are not created.

Max Tegmark: [...] since mathematical structures are not “created” and don’t exist “somewhere” — they just exist.
I agree that the term "created" is misleading.

The mathematical implication of extant environmental values dictate how these potential become expressed in reality with observable patterns that can be quantified and qualified.
AFAIK , mathematical structures emerge from the self-ordering mathematical interactions of relational values even in a chaotic environment.
Chaos theory explains the emergence of self-ordering patterns from a dynamic and chaotic environment (fields).
Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary area of scientific study and branch of mathematics focused on underlying patterns and deterministic laws of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions, and were once thought to have completely random states of disorder and irregularities. Wikipedia
Does that not suggests that the implicated future is as yet a dynamically disordered (probabilistic) environment and order might become expressed in a variety of patterns, based on the actual conditions present at the time of physical change in an otherwise probabilistic future reality?.

IMO, the confusing factor in a mathematically ordering universe is that the mathematics are influenced by the dynamical nature of spacetime, that prevents the perfect explication of the mathematics that guide each individual system.

Example: A perfect circle is an abstract Platonic object, but in a dynamic environment most circular objects and trajectories are expressed in elliptical torm, a distortion from purely circular. The earth itself may appear spherical but is a variable ellipsoid.

Is the Earth round?
The Earth is an irregularly shaped ellipsoid
The Earth is an irregularly shaped ellipsoid. While the Earth appears to be round when viewed from the vantage point of space, it is actually closer to an ellipsoid. However, even an ellipsoid does not adequately describe the Earth's unique and ever-changing shape. Oct 4, 2023
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/earth-round.html#
 
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While a "multiverse" certainly isn't necessary for mathematicism conceptions in general, Tegmark's parallel universes view does seem to be the driving motivation for steering him in that direction. The simplistic, ordinary block-time depiction (intended for a single universe) doesn't work as the "mathematical structure" for a multiverse. Thus, his expansion to some grander complex of that (and into structural realism, IF that really is a broader category that his MUH slots under).
For purpose of this discussion, a multiverse is irrelevant. I like the concept of a self-ordering system, and that can only come from a mathematical system dealing with the interactive pattern forming of relational generic values.
Max Tegmark: A mathematical structure is an abstract, immutable entity... If history were a movie, the structure would correspond not to a single frame of it, but to the entire videotape.
Here is one example I disagree with Tegmark. IMO, that is a false analogy. If history were a movie, the structure would correspond not to a completed history but to the process of being filmed in the present and the end of the movie hasn't yet been written.
Consider, for example, a world made up of pointlike particles moving around in three-dimensional space. In four-dimensional spacetime --the bird perspective-- these particle trajectories resemble a tangle of spaghetti.
If the frog [perspective] sees a particle moving with constant velocity, the bird sees a straight strand of uncooked spaghetti. If the frog sees a pair of orbiting particles, the bird sees two spaghetti strands intertwined like a double helix.
To the frog, the world is described by Newton's laws of motion and gravitation. To the bird, it is described by the geometry of the pasta --a mathematical structure.
The frog itself is merely a thick bundle of pasta, whose highly complex intertwining corresponds [in is view] to a cluster of particles that store and process information. Our universe is far more complicated than this example, and scientists do not yet know to what, if any, mathematical structure it corresponds.
Oh, I agree with all of that. I am not disputing mainstream science. I do wonder why mainstream science rejects the concept of a mathematically functioning physical universe.
Where is the fatal flaw in the concept of a mathematical universe? If it exists, can anybody show me, where that fatal flaw becomes evident.

Does Turing's "halting problem" in computers affect any mathematical functions in the universe? Is it possible that we are in a loop already, say if the universe were a toroid?
Animated-Torus.gif


Somehow the expression "shut up and calculate" is not satisfactory as an explanation other than for practical applied purposes.
It is wholly inadequate as a TOE.

Question: Does gravity establish a mathematically measurable geometry on spacetime that affects objects in its field?
 
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[...] AFAIK , mathematical structures emerge from the self-ordering mathematical interactions of relational values even in a chaotic environment.
Chaos theory explains the emergence of self-ordering patterns from a dynamic and chaotic environment (fields).

Does that not suggests that the implicated future is as yet a dynamically disordered (probabilistic) environment and order might become expressed in a variety of patterns, based on the actual conditions present at the time of physical change in an otherwise probabilistic future reality?.

This is departing to something outside MUH, though.

Probability approaches might be considered a substitute for accurate or precise prediction when the latter is impossible for humans to achieve. Rather than those reflecting or espousing a metaphysical view that the future is ambiguous or unsettled. (Unless this was rubbing shoulders with some "multiverse" scenario or interpretation of each of us consciously branching off into different timelines and parallel worlds, or whatever. That would certainly be an "unsettled future" in terms of what was individually and personally encountered.)

As for chaos: Nonlinear systems are deterministic (not truly random). But it would require absolute knowledge of a current state's configuration to precisely or accurately predict the system's future long-term, due to a sensitivity to initial conditions.

A definition of "genuine randomness" would be that such concerns events that do not adhere to (or adhere wholly to) any pattern or principle whatsoever. Thus making them truly unpredictable even in theory. IOW, even a god would only know those future events via being able to literally access the future -- and not prediction by means of calculation.

IOW, there seems to be no justification for genuine randomness (if such were the case) being dependent upon the future not existing, or the future being unsettled. For instance, if experts could omnisciently declare in the present that an _X_ was truly random (not conforming to any pattern or rule), then _X_ will still carry that "random" assessment as it becomes part of the distant past. Even in the latter context, there would still be no pattern or principle subsuming it.

Tegmark explores the possibility of the universe being a simulation in MUH, but even in that context it is not a view of "computation" that is dependent on time "having a flow" (i.e., some mysterious substance circulating through the extra-dimensional structure), and only the past and specious present existing.

Max Tegmark: ... Lloyd has advanced the intermediate possibility that we live in an analog simulation performed by a quantum computer, albeit not a computer designed by anybody — rather, because the structure of quantum field theory is mathematically equivalent to that of a spatially distributed quantum computer. In a similar spirit, Schmidhuber, Wolfram and others have explored the idea that the laws of physics correspond to a classical computation. Below we will explore these issues in the context of the MUH.

[...] Suppose that our universe is indeed some form of computation. A common misconception in the universe simulation literature is that our physical notion of a one-dimensional time must then necessarily be equated with the step-by-step one-dimensional flow of the computation. I will argue below that if the MUH is correct, then computations do not need to evolve the universe, but merely describe it (defining all its relations).

The temptation to equate time steps with computational steps is understandable, given that both form a one-dimensional sequence where (at least for the non-quantum case) the next step is determined by the current state. However, this temptation stems from an outdated classical description of physics: there is generically no natural and well-defined global time variable in general relativity, and even less so in quantum gravity where time emerges as an approximate semiclassical property of certain “clock” subsystems.

Indeed, linking frog perspective time with computer time is unwarranted even within the context of classical physics. The rate of time flow perceived by an observer in the simulated universe is completely independent of the rate at which a computer runs the simulation.

Moreover, as emphasized by Einstein, it is arguably more natural to view our universe not from the frog perspective as a 3-dimensional space where things happen, but from the bird perspective as a 4-dimensional spacetime that merely is.

There should therefore be no need for the computer to compute anything at all — it could simply store all the 4-dimensional data, i.e., encode all properties of the mathematical structure that is our universe. Individual time slices could then be read out sequentially if desired, and the “simulated” world should still feel as real to its inhabitants as in the case where only 3-dimensional data is stored and evolved.

[...] In conclusion, the role of the simulating computer is not to compute the history of our universe, but to specify it. ... Each relation of the mathematical structure is thus defined by a computation. In other words, if our world is a well-defined mathematical structure in this sense, then it is indeed inexorably linked to computations, albeit computations of a different sort than those usually associated with the simulation hypothesis: these computations do not evolve the universe, but define it by evaluating its relations.
--The Mathematical Universe (paper - either 2007 or 2019)​

IMO, the confusing factor in a mathematically ordering universe is that the mathematics are influenced by the dynamical nature of spacetime, that prevents the perfect explication of the mathematics that guide each individual system.

Example: A perfect circle is an abstract Platonic object, but in a dynamic environment most circular objects and trajectories are expressed in elliptical torm, a distortion from purely circular. The earth itself may appear spherical but is a variable ellipsoid.

If we used guiding "railroad tracks" as a crude analogy, those do not follow ideal geometrical patterns or shapes, either (curving and winding all over the place sometimes). But the spaghetti "paths" through Tegmark's 4D structure would seemingly have to feature fewer imperfections than our flat highways and railroad tracks in order for us to abstract regulating laws and principles from them at all that were reliable.
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And what controls the chemical reactions?
Physics, ultimately. Not mathematics.
It's the maths that guides the Universal self-organization of physical patterns in all their variety...
Wrong. Maths can't "guide" anything. Maths is conceptual.
Moreover, double entry accounting uses the same principles as maintaining homeostasis in living things.
Incorrect.
In business, this system is used to maintain the health of the organization.
In biology, this system is used to maintain the health of the living organism.
You're straining to find any connection, no matter how remote, these days. It's reminiscent of an LSD trip, at this point. Just random associations between things that are essentially unconnected. Anything to try to keep the trip going.
MO, the lack of inclusion of bookkeeping as a mathematical discipline is not a fault of mathematics but of mathematicians...:oops:
I have no idea what makes you think that bookkeeping isn't a "mathematical discipline". It is. It's just a rather low-level one based mostly in arithmetic. It would be better classed as an practical application of mathematics than a field of study in mathematics.
And what part of STEM do you think I need in order to understand principles of mathematics.
Mathematics. That's what the "M" in STEM is.
Organs are physical objects, but their regulatory function is mathematical in essence.
It is not.
Example: Quorum sensing in bacteria relies on chemical words.
It relies on chemicals. Words are conceptual.
The differences in molecular structure is mathematical in essence.
No. The differences are physical.
IMO, physics is the study of explicate physical patterns...
In wikipedia's opinion, Physics is the natural science of matter, involving the study of matter, its fundamental constituents, its motion and behavior through space and time, and the related entities of energy and force.
... mathematics is the process by which physical patterns become explicated.
You mean that mathematics can be used by people to explain patterns. Yes, it can.
It is the maths that allows for the physics.
You have it entirely backwards, as usual.
Any flaws in current human maths is not due to any flaws in the mathematics of the Universe.
How could you possibly know?
 
rather, because the structure of quantum field theory is mathematically equivalent to that of a spatially distributed quantum computer.
I accept that concept.
Indeed, linking frog perspective time with computer time is unwarranted even within the context of classical physics. The rate of time flow perceived by an observer in the simulated universe is completely independent of the rate at which a computer runs the simulation.
Moreover, as emphasized by Einstein, it is arguably more natural to view our universe not from the frog perspective as a 3-dimensional space where things happen, but from the bird perspective as a 4-dimensional spacetime that merely is.
But again that is a description of a subjective experience by these observers. Take the observers away and nothing changes.
If we used guiding "railroad tracks" as a crude analogy, those do not follow ideal geometrical patterns or shapes, either (curving and winding all over the place sometimes). But the spaghetti "paths" through Tegmark's 4D structure would seemingly have to feature fewer imperfections than our flat highways and railroad tracks in order for us to abstract regulating laws and principles from them at all that were reliable.
But is that not the same as my example of "dynamically distorted mathematics"?

As for anything deterministically already existing in the future, I disagree. Mathematically guided events, predictable as they may be in their promise of physical expression require time to process and become "explicated" in reality. Until then, determism only promises to deliver what is inherently promised by the maths. I understand that this as yet unrealized potential for a future world is what Bohm named "the Implicate Order"or "that which may become reality" (potential).
 
....I can appreciate an abstract Mathematical Ordering function and ts natural functional utility as a Universal "guiding principle" in self-forming and self-organizing systems (patterns) as the Universe appears to spawn spontaneously but in discrete mathematically based forms.
Word salad.
Evolution is a biologically physical process, based on mathematical probability.
Wrong again. Evolution is not based on mathematical probability.
A chromosome is a mathematical object
Wrong again. A chromosome is a long string of physical DNA.
Mathematics makes possible the management and analysis of the massive database of the Human Genome Project. Numerical analysis, statistics and modeling play a significant role in mapping and sequencing our DNA -- the blueprint for the genetic information that determines what makes each of us unique.
The map is not the territory.
It is the mathematics of the coded values that determine the genetic expression.
The map is not the territory.
I don't see Tegmark humbly changing his hypothesis, based on James' conception of mathematics without [?]
I don't see Tegmark humbly doing anything.
But the Universe does consist of natural generic values ...
Word salad. The term "generic values" has remained undefined by you, now, for at least a period of months, if not years.
...that relate and allow for mathematically guided interaction...
Mathematics cannot guide physical interactions.
...depending on the differential equation...
Can't you stop using words whose meanings you don't understand?
...that exists between these naturally emergent or acquired self-referential values and potential (as in "that" which may become reality).
Word salad piled on word salad.
And we finally arrive at Tegmark's MUH proposal that the entire universe is a mathematical object and that all universal physical processes are based on the mathematical interaction of generic relational values of sorts, even if these values are physical in nature.
Don't tell lies. I don't believe that Tegmark has ever used the term "generic relational values".

Don't try to pass off your ideas as Tegmark's. That's dishonest. Own your own ideas.

Arguments from authority don't work anyway. Even if Tegmark were to somehow support your ideas, that wouldn't make them correct, or more worthy of respect.
I believe Time is an abstract mathematical object that emerges with any chronology of physical change. AFAIK, Time is always additive,
i.e. The 4th dimension of Time is a purely mathematical object (dimension).
You have religious beliefs about time, as well? Not surprised.
I really do spend time in researching and cross-referencing what I post and quote in context of the subject under discussion.
You are not doing research. Your cutting up the dictionary and randomly pasting parts of it here is not research. It's more like random collage.
I regret that my method of communication presents problems.
Can't you help yourself?
I believe there is general scientific consensus on the concept of a natural inherent generic mathematical aspects to spacetime and Universal geometry.
What do you mean by "generic"? You keep using that word. "Generic relational values". "Natural inherent generic mathematical aspects". etc.

What do you mean? Are there any non-generic relational values? Are there any non-generic natural inherent mathematical aspects? Examples? Do you actually have anything in mind, or is it just random streams of words that keep flowing out in the same muddled way?
As long as science stipulates a mathematical aspect to the concept of spacetime, but that science has not yet discovered all the mathematical properties of the Universe, what is wrong with discussing mathematics in context of Tegmark's Mathematical Universe Hypothesis?
Nothing is wrong with discussing Tegmark's hypothesis. It seems like you're very poorly equipped for any useful discussion of it. You seem utterly unable to concentrate on any topic for more than a moment at a time, before something else takes your fancy and you feel compelled to cut and paste it.

There's another thread on this forum where people other than you had an interesting discussion about Tegmark's MUH. You were excluded from that discussion because you couldn't discuss the topic in any useful way.
As far as I can see, nothing about universal mathematics has been settled for the past few thousand years, from Pythagoras on.
What's "universal mathematics"? Give me an example.
This little scientific diagram makes perfect sense to me from a mathematical perspective.

Function (mathematics)
220px-Function_machine2.svg.png
You're not really sure what the word "function" actually means in mathematics, but you found a picture that makes you feel comfortable that you understand something about it.

It's fine. That picture does make "perfect sense", even though it doesn't contain enough information to communicate what a mathematical function actually is. The picture is good as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far.

But you're generally one for skating over the surface. Never one for the deep dive.
 
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Physics, ultimately. Not mathematics.
Ask yourself how you physically mix specific amounts of (bio)-chemicals to achieve a specific result that copies natural physics or biology?
All regularly occurring self-organizing physical patterns are by definition mathematical objects.
That's why DNA is a physical object that spells a mathematical code, a blueprint of a new organism, that MUST be accurately copied by a copying mechanism to grow and/or accurately copy their mother's code (mitosis). While this is a physical process, the action relies on the recurring numerical quantities that guarantee efficient continuance.

If we truly believe in the concept that natural selection is based on the principle of increased survivorship of individuals or groups with the best adaption to the necessity of mathematical expertise in problem solving skills.

In short, when you start talking about physics, that makes all life-forms on earth natural physicists and what do physicists do?
They apply the best and efficient mathematics possible.

The relational Mathematics of Existence itself cannot be chaotic but must be measurable (self-reference), or it could not guide the self-organization into regular patterns.
That requires a universal language to which everything must listen. To find such a universal common denominator of everything should lead to a TOE.

Wow...! I just found myself a correction on a very interesting subject - triangulation v. variable monocular focus - for measuring distance.
I once used chameleons as an example of measuring distance to prey via triangulation. I was wrong.

Monocular focusing and corneal accommodation[edit]

The combination of a negative lens and a positive cornea in the chameleon eye allow for accurate focusing by corneal accommodation.[4] Using corneal accommodation for depth perception[5] makes the chameleon the only vertebrate to focus monocularly. [1]
While sight is primarily independent in the two chameleon eyes, the eye that first detects prey will guide accommodation in the other eye.[3] Contrary to the previous belief that chameleons used stereopsis (both eyes) for depth perception, research has shown monocular focusing to be more likely.[6] Depending on the chameleon's step in the predation sequence, corneal accommodation can be coupled, meaning the eyes independently focus on the same object.[3]
When scanning the environment and in judging distance to prey, vision and accommodation are uncoupled: the eyes are focusing on different objects, such as the environment and the newly-sighted prey. Immediately before the chameleon's characteristic tongue is extended, accommodation in both eyes is coupled: both eyes focus independently on the prey.[3] Imprecise alignment of the images from each eye, as demonstrated by measuring various angles from eye to target, shows that stereopsis is unlikely for depth perception the chameleon.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chameleon_vision
 
To make my position clear as I understand it, the emergence of time is a "by-product' of change.
A useless, circular definition.
I cannot see time as a dimension that reaches into the future. It simply cannot be, because "in the future" there has been no duration of any kind. How can time exist for a non-existent chronological duration ?
This is what happens when you don't start with a good definition of the concept you're trying to grapple with. You just end up hopelessly muddled and talking about essentially nothing.

It's why your talk about mathematical functions is largely useless. It's why your talk about "mathematical values" is totally useless. It's why your talk of "self-referential mathematics" is useless. It is why your talk about "generic mathematics" is just word salad.

It is, in fact, one of the many reason why most of your posts are essentially contentless, apart from the random cut-and-pastes. Almost every idea that is observably yours is either meaningless or based on one or more misconceptions, often rooted in your failure to learn the meanings of the words you use.
Please explain why Tegmark's mathematical universe is not mathematical in essence and where I am wrong in my narrative?
Tegmark's MUH is a philosophical speculation dressed up to look like science.
Nobody is examining what it is Tegmark is proposing and I am not talking about a multiverse.
Tegmark is.
That is not required for establishing a fundamental mathematical aspect to this universe.
Tegmark says it is.
And I am still waiting for anybody to offer a logical alternative hypothesis to a "mathematical universe".
A non-mathematical universe is the obvious logical alternative. Discuss.
AFAIK there isn't a comprehensive "ordering" theory aside from mathematical logic, that offers a system that allows for constructing a TOE.
Here's a theory of everything: God did it all!

That's a comprehensive (indeed, all-encompassing) theory of everything, right there, and completely non-mathematically ordered.
And I am not just talking about numbers, but about anything that has a "value" that can be quantified in some relational way.
Give me an example of a "value" that can be quantified, which is not a number.
I ran across this interesting article about philosophy of mathematics.
I ran across an interesting article about shrinkflation in breakfast cereal sales, but I understand that posting that here would be off topic. What's your excuse?
Starting from the assumption that "determinism" is the purview of mathematics and whereas the occurrence of a "probability" is more or less random, the actual physical interaction when it occurs, is mathematically measurable.
What are you talking about?
Question: Is a super-nova a mathematical event creating chaos?
No. It definitely is not that.
The moment "input" and "processing" of information results in an "output", the output is a measurable and codifiable mathematical "result".
No. Outputs are possible other than mathematical outputs. Your posts here result in outputs, but they are very seldom mathematical.
I agree with a Block Universe representing the duration of the existence of the universe from "birth" (BB) to "present", but not in the "future".
Then you don't agree with the block universe.
How far into the future does the block universe exist?
To the end.
Was there ever NO block universe? Before the BB?
What do you mean by "before the Big Bang"?

Was there ever a place to the north of the North Pole?
What does "end of time" mean? The end of a block universe that never existed?
Wait. You just said you agree with the block universe, but then you said you don't agree that the future exists, and now you're saying that you're not sure what a future "end of time" would even mean?

How confident are you that you understand these concepts well enough to be able to have an informed opinion on the block universe? And if you don't have an informed opinion, why do you think it should matter to any of us what you do or do not agree with, on the topic?
What I do recognize is Bohm's Implicate order extending into a future "now", but is as yet "unexpressed in physical reality".
I can't parse that.
 
Note that "potential" is defined as "that which may become reality". IOW a future block universe is potentially (mathematically) Implicated from today's block universe, but not yet physically Explicated.
Word salad, but I'll give you points for at least attempting to define "potential" before posting the rest of the salad.
Time is not a physical object. Time is a measurement that emerges...
Give me another example of a measurement that "emerges".
with the duration of a chronology...
Did you just say that time is a measurement that emerges with time? Circular.
..., such as the duration of an extant physical block universe from the "beginning" BB...
A block universe has no "duration". It just is. Do you understand what a block universe is?
Question: How can a 4D block universe be measured with 2D slices of time in the future?
How can you make a two dimensional slice of time?

Nonsensical.
If time cannot be measured about a physical chronology...
"If time cannot be measured about time..."

Circular nonsense. Word salad.
, what single physical object is there to measure? (see Causal Dynamical Triangulation for a concept of an "unfolding universe".
Non sequitur pseudo-reference pointing at nothing.
The mathematical implication of extant environmental values dictate how these potential become expressed in reality with observable patterns that can be quantified and qualified.
How?
AFAIK , mathematical structures emerge from the self-ordering mathematical interactions of relational values even in a chaotic environment.
You know that, do you? And how, pray tell, do you come by that knowledge?

Especially since "relational values" is just a meaningless that you made up.
Chaos theory explains the emergence of self-ordering patterns from a dynamic and chaotic environment (fields).
An environment is not a field.

Patterns do not self-order. Patterns don't do anything.
Does that not suggests that the implicated future is as yet a dynamically disordered (probabilistic) environment and order might become expressed in a variety of patterns, based on the actual conditions present at the time of physical change in an otherwise probabilistic future reality?
Nonsense only ever suggests more nonsense. Sometimes is also suggests that the person posting the nonsense has a screw loose.
IMO, the confusing factor in a mathematically ordering universe is that the mathematics are influenced by the dynamical nature of spacetime, that prevents the perfect explication of the mathematics that guide each individual system.
Word salad piled on pointless, useless word salad.
Example: A perfect circle is an abstract Platonic object, but in a dynamic environment most circular objects and trajectories are expressed in elliptical torm, a distortion from purely circular. The earth itself may appear spherical but is a variable ellipsoid.
That is not an example or application of the previous word salad.
I like the concept of a self-ordering system, and that can only come from a mathematical system dealing with the interactive pattern forming of relational generic values.
What you like is mostly irrelevant, Write4U. Your gut feelings and your wishful thinkings and your aesthetic preferences do not determine facts about the world.

You like some word salad that you invented? So what?
I do wonder why mainstream science rejects the concept of a mathematically functioning physical universe.
Explain to me what "mathematical functioning physical universe" is supposed to mean, and I will let you know whether mainstream science rejects it. On one interpretation, I think that mainstream science has no problem at all with it. On another interpretation (probably the one you "like"), mainstream science probably rejects it because there's no evidence for it, and/or because it's a meaningless concept.
Where is the fatal flaw in the concept of a mathematical universe? If it exists, can anybody show me, where that fatal flaw becomes evident.
I previously explained it to you two or three times. Have you forgotten again?

The fatal flaw is that mathematics is conceptual, while the universe is physical.
Does Turing's "halting problem" in computers affect any mathematical functions in the universe?
Yes. It affects a certain class of mathematical functions.
Is it possible that we are in a loop already, say if the universe were a toroid?
All indications are that you're stuck in a loop.

You have no idea what a "toroidal universe" even means, yet you want to talk about it, randomly. Like almost everything else you talk about.
Somehow the expression "shut up and calculate" is not satisfactory as an explanation other than for practical applied purposes.
It's not an explanation and was never intended to be one.
It is wholly inadequate as a TOE.
It was never intended to be any such thing.
Question: Does gravity establish a mathematically measurable geometry on spacetime that affects objects in its field?
If, by "gravity" you mean "Einstein's theory of gravity", the answer is: yes, it does. Bear in mind that "spacetime" and "gravity" and "geometry" are all concepts, in this context.

But this is just another random question, unconnected to anything. It's useless answering you because you never learn. You just forget new information. In the next post, or in a day or two, you'll be back posting the same thing, having forgotten that somebody already explained something to you.
 
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The map is not the territory.
The blueprint is used to form the territory! Growth patterns are not physical things, they are mathematical things.

Mathematical formulation possibilities of growth processes
Abstract
A survey is given of the possibilities to construct mathematical models of growth. Growth as a phenomenon of life is well known since the earliest times of mankind as one can see from the languages. In Old Mesopotamia, Sumerians and Accadians were able to calculate compound interest but they had no idea to apply the formulae to living beings, neither to their children nor to cattle or fruits of the earth.
About 4000 years past the finding of the compound interest calculus, Gompertz (1825) and Verhulst (1838) gave formulae (differential equations) which describe the organismic growth for the first time.
A landmark of biological growth's research was the publication of the v. Bertalanffy's (1941) growth differential equation which describes the growth velocity as the difference between anabolism and catabolism. But the v. Bertalanffy's equation is more of theoretical value than of practical one.
The present writer shows three models in the form of differential equations to describe the growth of a single cell, of a homogeneous cell population in mitotic activity, and of the human (or higher mammalian) embryofetus on the basis of physicocochemical processes.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7343413/

 
A non-mathematical universe is the obvious logical alternative. Discuss.
OK, then discuss.
I am discussing what I believe resembles a viable candidate for a TOE. Don't tell me I am wrong and then not propose an alternate theory.
 
Write4U:

Is that the really best you can manage, in response?
Abstract
A survey is given of the possibilities to construct mathematical models of growth.
Do you understand the difference between a model of the Eiffel tower and the Eiffel tower? Do you understand the difference between a map of Detroit and Detroit? Do you understand the difference between a mathematical model of a cube and a physical cube?

Or don't you see any differences?
 
OK, then discuss.
I am discussing what I believe resembles a viable candidate for a TOE. Don't tell me I am wrong and then not propose an alternate theory.
We've been through this before.

A TOE (theory of everything) is a jargonish term that is used in physics to describe certain theoretical models that unify the fundamental interactions in the physical universe. Theories of everything are conceptual physical theories. Like many theories in physics, they involve mathematical modelling of particles, forces, fields and other theoretical entities.

There is no dispute that mathematical models are viable candidates for TOEs. But a TOE is a theory and all theories are conceptual.

A theory of the universe is the map. The physical universe itself is the territory that the map describes.

The map is not the territory.

Tegmark's MUH is an assertion about the physical universe. Tegmark claims that the physical universe is literally nothing but mathematics. That is a radical, minority viewpoint about the nature of physical reality. The mainstream view of reality is that there is a physical universe made of physical stuff such as particles. N.B. In the mainstream view, a physical particle is not the same as a mathematical model of that physical particle.

In the mainstream view, mathematics is very useful for modelling how the physical universe works. It's a descriptive and predictive tool. It's not something that physical stuff is made of.

If you - or Tegmark - wants to claim that something conceptual can somehow create, "guide" or otherwise influence something that is physical, on it's own (not, for instance, via the physical interface of a human brain that causes a physical human being to take physical actions in the physical world), you (both) need to explain how this is even a possibility that should be taken seriously.

I haven't read Tegmark, so I don't know all his arguments. I assume he has some. You don't know what they are, either, I assume. If you did know, you would probably have posted some of them by now, in an attempt to justify your opinion, rather than just continually stating what you believe (blindly). However, I am aware that Tegmark's book on the subject has not been received as a great revelation in the scientific community. On the contrary, I get the impression that most of the physicists who have read it are both underwhelmed and unconvinced by it.

Can you make any sort of case for Tegmark's hypothesis?
 
ou know that, do you? And how, pray tell, do you come by that knowledge?
From the very beginning, my friend: Chaos Theory.

What is Chaos Theory?
Chaos is the science of surprises, of the nonlinear and the unpredictable. It teaches us to expect the unexpected. While most traditional science deals with supposedly predictable phenomena like gravity, electricity, or chemical reactions, Chaos Theory deals with nonlinear things that are effectively impossible to predict or control, like turbulence, weather, the stock market, our brain states, and so on.
These phenomena are often described by fractal mathematics, which captures the infinite complexity of nature. Many natural objects exhibit fractal properties, including landscapes, clouds, trees, organs, rivers etc, and many of the systems in which we live exhibit complex, chaotic behavior. Recognizing the chaotic, fractal nature of our world can give us new insight, power, and wisdom. For example, by understanding the complex, chaotic dynamics of the atmosphere, a balloon pilot can “steer” a balloon to a desired location. By understanding that our ecosystems, our social systems, and our economic systems are interconnected, we can hope to avoid actions which may end up being detrimental to our long-term well-being.
  • Mixing: Turbulence ensures that two adjacent points in a complex system will eventually end up in very different positions after some time has elapsed. Examples: Two neighboring water molecules may end up in different parts of the ocean or even in different oceans. A group of helium balloons that launch together will eventually land in drastically different places. Mixing is thorough because turbulence occurs at all scales. It is also nonlinear: fluids cannot be unmixed.
  • more...
https://fractalfoundation.org/resources/what-is-chaos-theory/

That is debatable. Bohm proved that relative molecular positions can be restored in a fluid with non-turbulent motion maintained relative to the fluid's dynamics under favorable conditions.
 
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