Would you use torture ?

[c7ityi_]

I think there are many humans who want evil ...they just want it on THEIR terms, not someone else's!

Yes, but I mean originally. People want to cause evil because evil things have happened to them. Within, originally, all humans are good. There are only evil events. Hitler was a good person, he just happened to have a bad childhood and such.

Fear is the beginning of evil. People fear that others will hurt them, so they defend even before it happens. In the end, that fear turns into hatred, and there was never really anything to fear or hate. Everything is born inside our minds. Not even the outer things can affect us if we can control the inside.

But I also think ye're wrong in saying that evil exists because people are not themselves .....I think those people are evil because they ARE being themselves!

They are being persons. A person is not the real self, it's a mask.

hey i was joking about the western thing, i am western i live in london and was born here, and i know not everyoe is ignorant, but atleast 80% of the human race are idiots and ignorant, ile stick by that one,

I thought you were completely serious.

but in the reality we reside in at the moment, people are evil by nature, i know people who are just nasty plain evil ,and thats who they really are deep down,

No, everyone has Perfectly good reasons to do the things they do. Evil is only on the core, the good is inside.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

good and bad are subjective, and pure concept, but people can have negative energy, and posative energy.

some people would seeme vil to others, but the "evil person is just bieng himself and could see nothing wrong with it.


peace

 

[Baron Max]

Within, originally, all humans are good.

That, sir, is the largest pile of bullshit that's ever been stated on this planet! You may, of course, continue to believe that, but it will be to your detriment and to your misfortune.

Fear is the beginning of evil. People fear that others will hurt them, so they defend even before it happens.

But, .....but, ...didn't you originally say that all humans were good? If so, then why should they fear another human in the first place? And even if they did fear them, if they were really good, then why did they attack the other?

You should think a bit more about your beliefs in humans. It would also behoove you to consider that humans are just one other animal on the planet, and keep your beliefs in perspective, instead of using so much human EGO.

Baron Max

 

[c7ityi_]

That, sir, is the largest pile of bullshit that's ever been stated on this planet!

Don't be afraid.

But, .....but, ...didn't you originally say that all humans were good? If so, then why should they fear another human in the first place?

It is because people don't know that others are also good. They think there's a difference between the inside and outside, so they create a difference, in their mind.

And even if they did fear them, if they were really good, then why did they attack the other?

Because they feared. Their fear made them go away from the good. Without fear, the universe could not exist.

You should think a bit more about your beliefs in humans.

I don't need to, I already know everything, so I never think.

It would also behoove you to consider that humans are just one other animal on the planet, and keep your beliefs in perspective, instead of using so much human EGO.

Humans are humans and they are creatures, just like animals are. But humans are not animals.
---
All humans are good BECAUSE they have good reasons to be evil! None of them wanted to be evil in the first place. It just happened. It was not their fault, so they are not evil. Nothing is no ones fault so nothing is evil. People don't know what's up.

 

[spidergoat]

Well, well. It seems that your idealistic case against torture has been overturned by your own words. See? If there is a case for it with you, then there is also a case for someone else ...it's just a matter of opinion and degree, isn't it?

And please don't misunderstand me ...to say what you said above is only being honest and realistic. Idealists can't or won't put themselves in such situations, so they're able to remain foolishly idealistic, never allowing the realities of life interfer with their staunce idealism.

Baron Max

It's not hypocritical to expect more from governments than people. There is no political justification for revenge, which is the only valid use of torture.

 

[Baron Max]

It's not hypocritical to expect more from governments than people.

Aren't governments made up of people? ...regular, good ol' fashion, ordinary humans? ...just like all the rest of us? Or are you an elitist?

There is no political justification for revenge, which is the only valid use of torture.

What's "political justification" mean? And again, aren't politicians human like the rest of us?

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

I don't need to, I already know everything, so I never think.

Ooooo......kay!

Baron Max

 

[James R]

EmptyForceofChi:

...you cant prove anything i know the law...

It's not me you have to worry about.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

EmptyForceofChi:



It's not me you have to worry about.

ok then mr rentacop,

wo do i have to worry about?, the FBI busting down my door? wait a second while i go bolt my doors and hide in my nuke bunker,

are you serious?, you think a single post on this forum can convict me in the court of law? you obviously havent heard of a thing called evidence, its a fickle little thing that isnt it, and witnesses? and what about the fact that nobody can prove i actually typd this, and nobody can prove i did anything, as nobody can testify against me wit proof,


i can see the headlines now,

man jailed because of a post on sciforums, there is no actual proof, no witnesses, no evidence, no actual victim to testify anywhere to be seen, but we have him on lock down anyway, without trial, or lawyer,

good work boys,


sillyness,

peace,

 

[spidergoat]

Aren't governments made up of people? ...regular, good ol' fashion, ordinary humans? ...just like all the rest of us? Or are you an elitist?...

We limit the power of our government, and rightly so. It can't make me get medical treatment, it can't search my property without consent or cause, there are alot of things it can't do that a private citizen can and I don't want it to torture people in my name. I thought you republicans were for limiting the power and size of government.

 

[Baron Max]

We limit the power of our government, and rightly so. ... ...and I don't want it to torture people in my name.

But I'm a citizen, too! What if I DO want my government to torture suspected criminals and terrorists? Why should "we" have to do it YOUR way and not mine? Why should YOUR ideals be obeyed, but mine tossed to the garbage heap?

I thought you republicans were for limiting the power and size of government.

Who said anything about repub or demos?

Baron Max

 

[spidergoat]

But I'm a citizen, too! What if I DO want my government to torture suspected criminals and terrorists? Why should "we" have to do it YOUR way and not mine? Why should YOUR ideals be obeyed, but mine tossed to the garbage heap? ...

Baron Max

We should do it my way and not yours, because "my" way is what we already agreed to in signed treaties, which are as sacred as the constitution and the bill of rights. My way is what we also persuaded other countries to agree to. My way helps protect our soldiers from mistreatment. My way prevents the enemy from having to fight to the death instead of being captured.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't hold that opinion, or try to make it a political reality, that's democracy, but it's not the law at this time. In my opinion, it should never be the law.

 

[James R]

EmptyForceOfChi:

are you serious?, you think a single post on this forum can convict me in the court of law?

No. Which is why I said it's not me you have to worry about.

...you obviously havent heard of a thing called evidence, its a fickle little thing that isnt it, and witnesses and what about the fact that nobody can prove i actually typd this, and nobody can prove i did anything, as nobody can testify against me wit proof,

Your victim could testify. As for proving you typed something, that would be easy enough, if it ever became necessary.

man jailed because of a post on sciforums, there is no actual proof, no witnesses, no evidence, no actual victim to testify anywhere to be seen, but we have him on lock down anyway, without trial, or lawyer,

Your victim was a witness. All he would have to do is come forward.

 

[Hapsburg]

If a terrorist prisoner had knowledge of new terrorist actions, that would kill thousands of innocent people .
Would you then accept to torture the prisoner, to get this information and save people ???

To save people? No.
Just to harm the prisoner? Yeah, sure, why not?

 

[Roman]

Aren't governments made up of people? ...regular, good ol' fashion, ordinary humans? ...just like all the rest of us? Or are you an elitist?

Governments tend to show emergent behavior. They're more than the sum of their parts. They've been able to greatly improve living conditions, take us to the moon and into the cell.

That, and all kinds of made for tv atrocities.

I see beaurcracy as a step beyond just a collection of people or a despotic leader. They seem to have a knack for doing stuff that individuals would have a hard time doing.

But I might be wrong.

 

[john smith]

No, i dont think you are.

You gotta good point there.:m:

 

[Baron Max]

I see beaurcracy as a step beyond just a collection of people or a despotic leader. They seem to have a knack for doing stuff that individuals would have a hard time doing.

And perhaps doing things that individuals wouldn't even consider doing!? And worse, "forcing" individuals to do those things that they don't want to do?

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

To save people? No.
Just to harm the prisoner? Yeah, sure, why not?

Well, that might be true ....but they can use the idea of saving people to better explain their actions of torture?

Baron Max

 

[Roman]

And perhaps doing things that individuals wouldn't even consider doing!? And worse, "forcing" individuals to do those things that they don't want to do?

You mean like how we "force" individuals not to rape anyone? And unlike how you want to "force" confessions out of people you think are terrorists?

Many people are like children. You have to force them to do stuff, even though they want to, because it's good for them.

A good parent spanks his kids for bad behavior, a good parent teaches his kids to keep his room clean.

Likewise, a good government punishes citizens for felonies and punishes polluting companies.

 

[Baron Max]

Many people are like children. You have to force them to do stuff, even though they want to, because it's good for them.

Ahh, but that's okay with you as long as ye're one of the ones who makes all those determinations of "what's good for them", right?

Likewise, a good government punishes citizens for felonies and punishes polluting companies.

Only if they're caught!! As freedom-loving people, we're all free to do any and all of those things, and get away with it if we're not caught and convicted in court! So now ...what's this about a "good government"???

Do you know how many unsolved murders there have been in the USA? Do you know how many thefts go unsolved each years in the USA? Etc., etc. Is all of that what you call "good government"?

Baron Max