Would you teach your kid to fight a bully?

[weed_eater_guy]

A common dilemma, at least in American school systems: your kid is being picked on by dipshits again. Should the kid "turn the other check", get the shit kicked out of them, and then report to the inept school authorities so they can shake a finger and make a few phone calls, or should the kid physically defend himself (in a way legally appropriate), at the risk of the school suspending or expelling your kid?

I'm sure we've all got a couple bully stories. In my life, I've ended up being both: a bully to this kid in elementary school (I was a little shit then, I make no excuse here), and later after changing schools, being the bitch on the bus ride into school older kids would pick on, or kick the shit out of. Once, there was a kid who sat right next to me, pulled out a switchblade and a zippo, started heating the blade and describing what a wound from a hot blade looked like, and threatened to "demonstrate this on me".

My dad always taught me to "go to the authorities", and that whatever happens in a situation like this, rely on the system to straighten the kid out. Well, this failed miserably on a number of occasions. The particular school I was in (and my own dad even) faulted me for once when being slammed on by the guys on the bus, I was stupid enough to attempt asking if they'd only hit my shoulder and not my guts. The school (AND MY OWN DAD EVEN) said this constituted me bringing on the fight. The net result was that the guys were suspended from the bus for three days, after which hell continued with my new title "the fucking snitch".

Another time, I got in a fight with a kid in the hallway. He pushed me, and I thought I'm tired of this, fuck it, it's on. An hour later we were both in detention, because despite what witnesses clearly said, the school felt we were both at fault.

In high school, things calmed down a bit more for me, but I only recently snapped (quite angerly) at my dad after he brought up that bus situation at the dinner table as his crowning achievement, since he "encouraged compromising to solve the problem". Things are good after that night, I forgive him and he better understands what went down.

So yeah, damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'm in my 20's, and realize fatherhood is probably only a decade away or so for me, and I ought to start thinking of how I ought to go about that sorta thing. On one end of the spectrum, there's my dad's ultra-pacifistic method, and on the other spectrum, there's me teaching my kid to defend himself with the risk of either my kid or the school screwing up judgment, resulting in my kid getting suspended or worse.

What would you do, sciforums? :shrug:

 

[Asguard]

well in australia i would take it to the school and then either the police and or the education department. Of course here issues of bullying have been concidered VERY serious and it IS common law assult in the majority of cases

 

[draqon]

I draqon has acted like this in my life, I realize how important is the social concensus of my persona and their judgement decision in how they treat me. So if a guy kicks me, I do not kick back when others see us. However in the dark alley when he is alone, is when I kick him. And the next day when he passes me, I smile back.

I did this many times actually. It started in kindergarden. A kid was picking on me playing with toy cars and laughing at me with other kids, than they shoveled me. I played innocent and cried a bit, did not touch him. Than when he saw how innocent I was incapable to do anything to him, he forgot his judgement and came to me alone when we were outside the school yard, he was telling me something, I took him by his collar and threw him on the grass with an evil smile on my face I said "do not pick on me again". He did tell his parents what I did and his teachers too, but they did not believe him. I played innocent the next day and only smiled at him oncemore with my white teeth at him. That was it for him

In middle school the incident such as this also occured in USA. I was silent in school and was not looking at girls, and an easy target for "you are gay" calls. Again I took it in, and did not hit back or say anything. When the two kids decided to pick on me when I was walking home alone, they soon learned that my true self was far different than in school, I picked up a rock and run straight at them and threw it. Next day their attitudes changed towards me, however I did nothing in class to reveal of what happened between us.

Lesson: turn the cheek when its done in front of others, than track the person down when he is alone and beat him up.

 

[Asguard]

oh and if all else fails, schools (and the education department for that matter) REALLY dont like law suits

 

[Steve100]

I think that if your kid legaly defends himself, the school shouldn't have a leg to stand on if they want to suspend them.

 

[copernicus66]

What would you do, sciforums? :shrug:

Telling your kid to go to the authorities is a big con, a really big con. Parents who suggest that are really out of touch with reality (especially the reality boys face). It not only encourages the child to rely on the inept and bureaucratic authority figure to nanny him and turn him into an anti-gun 'please halp me police my wife is being raped in front of my eyes' faggot, but also sends out the loud and clear message to the other kids that "I am a bitch who can't handle themselves."

I think of high school as a lot like prison. If you have respect for yourself and others, charisma and social intelligence, it will be a breeze. If you keep your eyes on the ground, bend over every time someone looks at you funny, and take every blow without retaliation, you'll just get fucked harder and harder until your rectum ruptures.

Someone who had been in prison once told me of a little test that prisoners will try on fresh meat. A hardened crim would approach the new prisoner and ask for his shoes. If the new prisoner said "Go fuck yourself" and fought back, he would be respected and incorporated into the 'clique' (even if he got the shit beaten out of him. Defiance shows strength of character). If he just gave up his shoes, he would be treated as the bitch for the rest of his stay. If he went crying to the authorities, I'm sure you can guess what would result (hint: Shower gang rape).

It's the same shit (just less intense) in high school. You present yourself as a weak and socially inept target, you'll get bullied mercilessly. Going to the authorities will just make it worse.

Someone takes a swing at you? Bash the shit out of them. Someone shoves you looking for a fight? Don't shove back, PUNCH THEM IN THE FACE! It works wonders.

Suspension? What's that again? Time off school, whoopee.

 

[Algernon]

Telling your kid to go to the authorities is a big con, a really big con. Parents who suggest that are really out of touch with reality (especially the reality boys face). It not only encourages the child to rely on the inept and bureaucratic authority figure to nanny him and turn him into an anti-gun 'please halp me police my wife is being raped in front of my eyes' faggot, but also sends out the loud and clear message to the other kids that "I am a bitch who can't handle themselves."

I think of high school as a lot like prison. If you have respect for yourself and others, charisma and social intelligence, it will be a breeze. If you keep your eyes on the ground, bend over every time someone looks at you funny, and take every blow without retaliation, you'll just get fucked harder and harder until your rectum ruptures.

Someone who had been in prison once told me of a little test that prisoners will try on fresh meat. A hardened crim would approach the new prisoner and ask for his shoes. If the new prisoner said "Go fuck yourself" and fought back, he would be respected and incorporated into the 'clique' (even if he got the shit beaten out of him. Defiance shows strength of character). If he just gave up his shoes, he would be treated as the bitch for the rest of his stay. If he went crying to the authorities, I'm sure you can guess what would result (hint: Shower gang rape).

It's the same shit (just less intense) in high school. You present yourself as a weak and socially inept target, you'll get bullied mercilessly. Going to the authorities will just make it worse.

Someone takes a swing at you? Bash the shit out of them. Someone shoves you looking for a fight? Don't shove back, PUNCH THEM IN THE FACE! It works wonders.

Suspension? What's that again? Time off school, whoopee.

This is the same exact mentality that gets some kid shot in the face at Dave n Busters. Being able to tolerate humility and embarressment is not necessarily such a bad thing. Even though I have had years of martial arts training and can probably take on a good proportion of unarmed adversaries, I always try to talk my way out of a situation if not use my common sense. The worst thing you could do is to elevate or anger someone who is already either drunk or very insecure about their own image in front of others. Especially if they are in front of their "homies" or guy friends.
Teaching a kid to fight back when they are young not only encourages this type of dangerous behavior but also that revenge is ok. I don't think the other option is such a bad thing, as long as it doesn't get to the point where it gets out of hand (e.g. threatening his life or other things). If not for the bully in school, they will have to grow up to experience a bunch of other bullies, bad police officers, bad supervisors, coworkers, family.

You really think that someone stepping up or saying to F*** themselves is going to stop a bully? You think bullies all have honor and dignity and will say how cool you are now that you made him look like a wimp? Respect isn't gained mutually in these situations, either he gets it or you get it. When these situations arise rarely does someone not lose respect.
Yeah... maybe he'll back down. Then when you are taking a piss he smashes your skull with a hammer.

We can't always predict or anticipate harmful behavior to ourselves but lets not try to increase the chances.

 

[copernicus66]

TBeing able to tolerate humility and embarressment is not necessarily such a bad thing.

Acting like a bitch is a bad thing.

Even though I have had years of martial arts training and can probably take on a good proportion of unarmed adversaries, I always try to talk my way out of a situation if not use my common sense.

I knew a particular individual like that in my class. He had his black belt, and just stood there as he was beaten black and blue by three kids. Refusal to fight back is a display of cowardice, 'martial artists' just try to rationalise their cowardice by passing it off as discipline.

The worst thing you could do is to elevate or anger someone who is already either drunk or very insecure about their own image in front of others. Especially if they are in front of their "homies" or guy friends.

So now we're talking about drunks? I thought this was about bullying at school?

Teaching a kid to fight back when they are young not only encourages this type of dangerous behavior

Dangerous behaviour? Acting like a bitch is dangerous behaviour, as it puts the child at the very high risk of having the bullying escalate to a point where they suffer serious physical (and emotional) harm.

but also that revenge is ok.

Not revenge. Retaliation. Quite often retaliation with violence can result in an individual stopping their destructive behaviour against you.

You really think that someone stepping up or saying to F*** themselves is going to stop a bully?

Not by itself, no. You'd need to back up your words with action. However, telling a bully to fuck himself instead of meekly smiling and kissing his boots is a step in the right direction.

You think bullies all have honor and dignity and will say how cool you are now that you made him look like a wimp?

Except that's precisely what happens. My own experiences, as well as those of other people, all point to the fact that individuals who bully you will not only *stop* bullying you, but will also *respect* you, if you stand up for yourself.

Respect isn't gained mutually in these situations,

Wrong. Apparently you know nothing about the male world.

Yeah... maybe he'll back down. Then when you are taking a piss he smashes your skull with a hammer.

What's to stop him from smashing you in the back of the skull while you're taking a piss if you report him to the authorities? Oh wait, I forgot, the teachers and principal will form a human shield between you and the hammer.

We can't always predict or anticipate harmful behavior to ourselves but lets not try to increase the chances.

I agree. Let's decrease the chance of being the victim of harmful behaviour by not adopting the role of a victim. Fight back, hurt the bully, make them realise that bullying you will cost them in time and pain.

 

[Oli]

I knew a particular individual like that in my class. He had his black belt, and just stood there as he was beaten black and blue by three kids. Refusal to fight back is a display of cowardice, 'martial artists' just try to rationalise their cowardice by passing it off as discipline.

:roflmao:
Wrong on sooo many levels.

 

[codanblad]

I knew a particular individual like that in my class. He had his black belt, and just stood there as he was beaten black and blue by three kids. Refusal to fight back is a display of cowardice, 'martial artists' just try to rationalise their cowardice by passing it off as discipline.

so you're saying you have the balls to let someone kick the shit out of you? you have the self control to just stand there when the adrenaline kicks in? maybe that guy is so mentally tough that he doesn't even care they're beating him up, pain doesn't worry him. How is taking a beating for your beliefs cowardice?

I'm pretty sure it was some chinese warrior poet that said 'if you have to fight, you have already lost the battle'.

all that out of the way, i don't expect kids to understand pacifism, for schoolkids i think there needs to be a balance between standing up for yourself and letting authorities handle it. your kid will get the shit teased out of him if he's a pussy, and needs to learn to stand up for himself cos its a life skill. at the primary and secondary school i went to, teachers could/chose to only do so much, so telling ur kid to always let the authorities handle it is a mistake.

*edit* lol didn't see ur post before i made mine oli, what is it they say about great minds?

 

[mikenostic]

:roflmao:
Wrong on sooo many levels.

I wouldn't go that far.
Refusing to fight isn't cowardice, but refusing to defend yourself might be.

One should always try to use every means possible to defuse a situation. Much like cops/authorities try to defuse a situation to keep them from using deadly force.

If you absolutely deem that a fight is just unavoidable, hit first. Hit hard, and don't stop hitting until your opponent is incapacitated.

As for bullies, I will teach my child to defend him/herself by any means possible. If bullies know you will fiercely defend yourself, they will leave you alone.
If the prinicpal of the school doesn't like it, then I'll tell him/her they need to control their children better; and maybe him/her should find another line of work if they don't know how.
If the bully's parents doesn't like it, I'll tell them the same thing and offer to do to his/her dad the same thing their bully child was trying to do to my child.

well in australia i would take it to the school and then either the police and or the education department. Of course here issues of bullying have been concidered VERY serious and it IS common law assult in the majority of cases

I equate this mentality to communism: excellent idea on paper but rarely works in a practical application environment.

 

[codanblad]

You really think that someone stepping up or saying to F*** themselves is going to stop a bully?

if the bully is looking for an easy target, maybe. i was hanging out at the local shopping centre, and some dude my age came up and decided to take one of my bourbon and cokes. i told him he couldn't have it, he made some threats and i nodded, then he turned friendly and walked away. some guys are just looking to see what they can get away with.

 

[mikenostic]

if the bully is looking for an easy target, maybe. i was hanging out at the local shopping centre, and some dude my age came up and decided to take one of my bourbon and cokes. i told him he couldn't have it, he made some threats and i nodded, then he turned friendly and walked away. some guys are just looking to see what they can get away with.

Kudos on your willpower. See, I couldn't just stand there and nod. It would have been very, very hard for me not to shove, sucker punch or even head butt someone coming over and fucking with me like that.
Don't threaten me unless you are 100% physically prepared to back it up.

 

[codanblad]

As for bullies, I will teach my child to defend him/herself by any means possible. If bullies know you will fiercely defend yourself, they will leave you alone.

unless the bullies are looking for a good fight. i know my mates would tease the guy they knew would react. also, my youngest brother always defends himself fiercely, and my brother never stops teasing him.

also are you saying you'd teach ur child to defend themself with a weapon against school bullies? sounds like a bad idea to me, if its that serious its time for parents to step in. "british boys fight with their fists".

 

[Orleander]

My daughter has been in more fights and sat in the principals office more than my son. She has a temper. She sees a special ed student being picked on and she jumps right in there. My son says "their parents want them treated like everyone else, so...."

 

[codanblad]

Kudos on your willpower. See, I couldn't just stand there and nod. It would have been very, very hard for me not to shove, sucker punch or even head butt someone coming over and fucking with me like that.
Don't threaten me unless you are 100% physically prepared to back it up.

well i'd worked the 6am til 2pm shift, i was exhausted and sitting down. i figured if i stood up he might take it the wrong way and start throwing punches, and i could see his group of mates about 10m away. that said, neither he nor his mates seemed so aggressive that i felt in much danger, so i was just calling a bluff to an extent. point is, decision was just what i thought was my best option rather than me practising pacifism.

also, i agree with your thoughts on asguards comments, you can't fully rely on authorities, and in my experience, all that talk on cracking down on bullies was just talk.

 

[copernicus66]

My daughter has been in more fights and sat in the principals office more than my son. She has a temper. She sees a special ed student being picked on and she jumps right in there. My son says "their parents want them treated like everyone else, so...."

Give a man a fish...

 

[mikenostic]

unless the bullies are looking for a good fight. i know my mates would tease the guy they knew would react. also, my youngest brother always defends himself fiercely, and my brother never stops teasing him.

Sounds like your youngest brother hasn't done any really painful and/or permanent damage to your teasing brother.

also are you saying you'd teach ur child to defend themself with a weapon against school bullies? sounds like a bad idea to me, if its that serious its time for parents to step in. "british boys fight with their fists".

:bugeye: I never said 'with a weapon'. I said 'by any means necessary', which means if he has a pen/pencil in range, use it.

"british boys fight with their fists"

yeah and it's that British honor crap that lost you guys the Revolutionary War.


Let me tell you guys something, there are no rules to getting bullied. It's essentially a street fight. No rules.

Here's my statement to you and any other naysayer, if you don't want to see children defending themselves in such a manner, then you need to do something about bullying.
Here's a quote by me, for bullies: Leave people alone. You don't know what they're capable of. Don't start no shit, won't be no shit. Bullying and excessive picking is what brings out the serial killer in some people. Leave them alone.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah I would [teach my kid to fight a bully]

It would be irresponsible not to.

 

[mikenostic]

well i'd worked the 6am til 2pm shift, i was exhausted and sitting down. i figured if i stood up he might take it the wrong way and start throwing punches, and i could see his group of mates about 10m away. that said, neither he nor his mates seemed so aggressive that i felt in much danger, so i was just calling a bluff to an extent. point is, decision was just what i thought was my best option rather than me practising pacifism.

Once again, kudos. Had it been me, there would have been a brawl.
If I had stood up, I would have been throwing a punch in the process. Like I said, if you know there is going to be a fight, do not let them throw the first punch.
As for his buddies, that's why I usually have an extendible baton and pepper spray with me; they would have had two choices, stand back and let his buddy get his ass justly whipped, or try to step in and help only to get blasted in the eyes with some cayenne, and possibly bones broken from the baton.

also, i agree with your thoughts on asguards comments, you can't fully rely on authorities, and in my experience, all that talk on cracking down on bullies was just talk.

Unfortunately that's the way it is. Authorities can only do so much.