With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

[David F.]

Not to mention the said God, curiously enough, has but human traits. Moreover, these traits (like jealousy, hatred) are the same ones He would rather us not have. What a role model!

I missed the place where God told us not to be Jealous? Isn't that Catholic - not Biblical (one of those non-biblical things which has crept in to corrupt Christianity)?

I missed the place where God told us not to hate? We are to love the sinner but hate the sin. We are to hate that which is evil. Isn't this exactly what God does?

There is one thing God does that we don't - revenge. God, like all good fathers, tells us to let Him take care of the revenge stuff and not let children (like us) get involved. Revenge (not to be confused with self-defense) is a God thing.

 

[Dreamwalker]

Isn't killing a sin?

And I found revenge pretty human, since it shows that a being is far from perfect or superior.

 

[David F.]

Isn't killing a sin?

And I found revenge pretty human, since it shows that a being is far from perfect or superior.

No, murder is a sin.

 

[Dreamwalker]

Excuse me, but

killing [Show phonetics]
noun [C]
when a person is murdered

murder [Show phonetics]
noun [C or U]
the crime of intentionally killing a person

I somehow fail to see the difference...

 

[David F.]

Excuse me, but I somehow fail to see the difference...

Murder is the unlawful taking of a human life. There are times when it is lawful to take a human life - an execution, self-defense, during a battle in a war.

When the KJV bible was first translated in 1611, the word "kill" meant "murder". In 1611, you executed criminals, you slaughtered animals and you harvested crops. Today, the language has changed so that we think of all these things as "kill". Our language has changed but our documents have remained the same, causing this kind of misunderstanding. Today we would not say that someone "murdered" a cow in a butcher shop - we would say someone "killed" the cow. This is the difference betwee kill and murder.

The original Hebrew word "rawtsach" means murder, not kill.

 

[Dreamwalker]

Ok, then killing is good and murdering is bad? Do I have it right now? So if I can justify taking the life of someone then it is rightful killing?

Still, a god who takes revenge would be childish, at least on my opinion, but I suppose god makes his own laws and so on...


Ah, and on a quick idea I just had,

One thing that i have observed again and again is people using the actions of God or people in the Bible to argue the non-existence of God..

Speaking about acts of god and the bible, do you believe that god created the world as it is described in the bible?

 

[mustafhakofi]

DAVID F: this is all the times your god, has been callous and cruel, according to your bible.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.htm

Originally Posted by david f
like it or not, the killing of the Caananites was necessary. We didn't know why until 19th century archeology. As it turns out, the land of Caanan was riddled with incurable (at least at that time) venerial disease. The plauge was even rampant in the animals (how exactly did it get there, yuck). The virgins were probably the only ones not infected (there was so much pedifilia that even the young boys were infected). The Israeli soldiers were given the option of sparing the virgins. They did not just rape the young girls though. They were told to bring the girls home with them but not touch them. They then had to shave every hair off of their bodies and trim their nails (to make sure there was no disease anywhere on their bodies) and then they had to wait for a month. Only then, if the soldier still wanted to, did they marry the girl. I suppose they could have just left the young girls to starve to death, but that doesn't seem too humane, now does it.



please provide source and referance material for the above claim, thank you.
I cannot find anything to verify your claim.

if your say a fetus is a baby, then so is a sperm, an ameoba, etc.
and remember everytime someone jerks off, their life clock moves one second, but I bet you could use yours, as a fan.

please supply the source material thank you.

 

[David F.]

I did provide sources... Please look back about 9 posts to my reply to SouthStar. (I know there is some way to provide a hyperlink to a post?) I learned this some time ago (before there was an Internet), back when TV was black and white and we still read books, but I was quite pleased to find online sources, the very first time I looked (it took about 5 minutes, or less, of searching).

I went back and added the word REFERENCES so you won't miss it.

 

[MagiAwen]

I know most of you don't pay attention to what I say...Doesn't really bother me but I would hate to shirk my duty in the little niche I have created for myself here. So here I will give you a few more things to ignore.

David F. wrote

There is one thing God does that we don't - revenge. God, like all good fathers, tells us to let Him take care of the revenge stuff and not let children (like us) get involved. Revenge (not to be confused with self-defense) is a God thing.

Hmmm there are a lot of people who worship God that need to know that. Some of the most spiteful and vengeful people I have had the displeasure of meeting claim they are a worshiper of this God.

May I add that we do not allow women to do just anything they want to their bodies. They are not allowed cut off a limb. They are not allowed to put banned drugs into their bodies (if they do this when they are pregnant they can even be charged with child abuse or child endangerment!) It is ridiculous to make claims like "my body, my choice" No, it is not your choice. There are some things you are not allowed to do to your body.

Allowed? I hope you mean this in a way that is not as literal as I took it to be. You sound like a chauvinistic prick when you say things like that.

I know I'm asking way too much of some you when I ask direct questions that require you to invest your emotions and convey your feelings that are not contained in some sort of already authored text. Quite obviously there are a lot of people in these threads that cannot tell me straight out why they believe... unless it is some answer like "Because I do or it's written in this book" For some reason I can have conversations with ministers and priests of sevearl denominations of this God worshiping stuff and they do not argue most of what you people argue about in here. I wonder why. It is possible you don't have a grasp of your religion at all or you wouldn't get so worked up when people asked you questions about it.

I have never contended that christianity in whatever form you would like to think you are worshiping was not a religion. In fact it indeed is with many other religions but even the Catholics I have encountered agree that religion is man made; They choose to believe one deity created all and that is fine by me but for some reason they do not choose to shove it at me any time I make a political or emotional statement. I wonder what the difference is?

Regarding abortion. We live in a world that has thousands nay tens of thousands or more different beliefs. Why would you get to choose what everyone would be subject to on a sociopolitical matter?

Whatever. I'm sure this is all a lost cause.

 

[Bells]

May I add that we do not allow women to do just anything they want to their bodies. They are not allowed cut off a limb. They are not allowed to put banned drugs into their bodies (if they do this when they are pregnant they can even be charged with child abuse or child endangerment!) It is ridiculous to make claims like "my body, my choice" No, it is not your choice. There are some things you are not allowed to do to your body.

Who said? Why not? I take it that while a woman is 'not allowed' to have an abortion, a man 'is allowed' to put his sperm wherever he so chooses, regardless of the consequence to the woman and/or child? If it is not the woman's choice David, who then should be given that right to choose?

And David, a woman and a man are allowed to cut off a limb if they are placed in a situation that requires it. Your argument would have it that the guy whose arm was wedged under a boulder and he had to hack it off himself to survive would have committed a crime. After all, it was his body and it was his life and therefore HIS CHOICE.

As to the banned drugs, it is society that has deemed the drugs as being illegal or 'banned'. Some societies do not and therefore those people living in said societies are allowed to put such substances in their body.

And believe me David, if I were ever put in a position where my life as I know it would be endangered because of a pregnancy, I would take that step to ensure the safety of my life. That's right, it would be MY CHOICE to do so. Why? Because it's MY body and MY life, not the life and choice of some religious peon.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar wrote:

" All Praise The Ancient Of Days "

I have seen others use this phrase and other than all sorts of usages in google, I was wondering what it means to you personally.

This title appears in the book of Daniel:

Daniel 7
Vision of the Ancient of Days
9 "I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.


Why do i use that title? Because i spend most of my internet time witnessing on a multi denominational forum and there are people who take the name of God very seriously there. Even using the word God can cause offense. But the term Ancient Of Days Does not offend anyone, even those who would be offended by the terms YAHWEH, Jehovah, God, I AM ext ext. I often use the term God Of Abraham and that seems good also. Many of the Messianic Jews I fellowship with do not like the name of God being typed down at all. You will often see them use G-d as a sign of respect to The God of Abraham.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Good Post.

May I add that we do not allow women to do just anything they want to their bodies. They are not allowed cut off a limb. They are not allowed to put banned drugs into their bodies (if they do this when they are pregnant they can even be charged with child abuse or child endangerment!) It is ridiculous to make claims like "my body, my choice" No, it is not your choice. There are some things you are not allowed to do to your body.

Well actually our bodies are not ours at all. Our bodies are owned by God. In that post i was only using PC logic to demonstrate the conflict between the human rights and woman’s rights that the worldly use to argue a case for mass murder.

And i disagree with you. People can cut a limb off their bodies they can put banned drugs into their bodies. People can attempt to do anything they please with their bodies but of course there usually are consequences to any action. weather or not one is prepared for the consequences.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[MagiAwen]

Thank you for answering me, Adstar.

Also, you wrote:

i spend most of my internet time witnessing on a multi denominational

I have heard the term witnessing before but have always wondered what that meant. You apparently are on a forum of several different christian denominations and you are doing this "witnessing" what is that?

Also, how does it make you feel when you have to almost hide your beliefs? I mean... I see you are using that term as to not piss off other denominations...do you like that you have to modify yourself in order to do so? I assume your probably don't...but then....why do you do it? Why do you compromise what you belive for others?

I don't mean that to sound rude or accusing...it's just...I would never do it no matter who believed in what on whatever board I was on. If I feel like saying Love and Life to you or Bright Blessings to you...I will do so...I find it would be appalling to me to change myself simply to keep others content and not to offend.

 

[Adstar]

Ok, then killing is good and murdering is bad? Do I have it right now? So if I can justify taking the life of someone then it is rightful killing?

Well i suppose most people hear know the thoughts i have on that issue. Enough to say that i disagree with David on this one.

Still, a god who takes revenge would be childish, at least on my opinion, but I suppose god makes his own laws and so on...

God has promised that He will avenge the wrongs done to His followers and He will.

Ah, and on a quick idea I just had,

Originally Posted by Adstar
One thing that i have observed again and again is people using the actions of God or people in the Bible to argue the non-existence of God..

Speaking about acts of god and the bible, do you believe that god created the world as it is described in the bible?

I believe all that is in the physical universe and all other things other than God Himself was created By God.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Thank you for answering me, Adstar.

Also, you wrote:



I have heard the term witnessing before but have always wondered what that meant. You apparently are on a forum of several different Christian denominations and you are doing this "witnessing" what is that?

Thanks for the thanks

Term witnessing:

If you go to court as a witness of an event you are required to give an account of your knowledge of the events pertaining to the case being tried.

Likewise when you are witnessing about God and The Messiah you have to give an account of the beliefs you have.

The point of witnessing about God is to give others the opportunity to accept God. One can do it anywhere where people can read or hear the witness like hear or on the multi denominational board i go to.

Also, how does it make you feel when you have to almost hide your beliefs? I mean... I see you are using that term as to not piss off other denominations...

Well on the issue of the Name of God i have not compromised my beliefs at all i have just been sensitive to the weakness of other followers of the God of Abraham. The term "Ancient Of Days" Is a proper title for God therefore when i use it i do not cause other followers of God to be unnecessarily angered at me for doing something that they believe is evil. Personally i believe that God knows the mind of an individual no matter what name they use. i opfen pray without using any name at all. I just say something like "your will be done" or "help me". God knows i know there is only one God. So there is only One i can be talking to.

do you like that you have to modify yourself in order to do so? I assume your probably don't...but then....why do you do it? Why do you compromise what you believe for others?

Great question.... Yes thats a real top notch question.

Ok.. Lets say that you are trying to help someone see all their misconceptions. lets say just for discussion sake you are convinced than another person has 10 misconceptions about God. So you engage them in discussion on the first misconception. And they flatly refuse to be swayed by the thoughts that you have. Should one immediately stop all discussions and walk away from the other person? No i don't. i will move on to the next misconception and then the next and the next. Until i have discussed with the other follower of God all the issues we are not in agreement with. Many times at the end of the discussions they may have moved on 4 or 5 of the issues and they know that you are genuine in your patience and love for them. this helps when you once again start to discuss again the 5 issues you remain divided on.

Now there are issues not central to salvation that followers of the Messiah disagree on, they are what is termed disputable matters. Then there are the central issues of faith where disagreement can lead to nothing other than the end of fellowship. Fellowship being the exchange of insight between followers of the Messiah Jesus. Communication can continue between the two parties but it becomes a witnessing to the other not fellowship.

I don't mean that to sound rude or accusing...it's just...I would never do it no matter who believed in what on whatever board I was on. If I feel like saying Love and Life to you or Bright Blessings to you...I will do so...I find it would be appalling to me to change myself simply to keep others content and not to offend.

I would never do it on a central issue of faith. But it is not right to stir up contention and be divided over minor issues. I know for some people every little issue when talking faith and God is mayor. I have had people condemn me for my thoughts on the issue of woman wearing head covers when praying.

Such is life when your dealing with Humans

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[mis-t-highs]

I did provide sources... Please look back about 9 posts to my reply to SouthStar. (I know there is some way to provide a hyperlink to a post?) I learned this some time ago (before there was an Internet), back when TV was black and white and we still read books, but I was quite pleased to find online sources, the very first time I looked (it took about 5 minutes, or less, of searching).

I went back and added the word REFERENCES so you won't miss it.

having read your posts and mustafha's, I can understand where she's coming from.
you do not provide references for your statements that, archeologists have produced entire libraries for Canaanite nations, and that it was society which was ravaged by venereal disease, even the animals.
the one link below out of the five produced, mentions it in passing, but also does not provide, a reference source.

http://www.pbc.org/old-pbc1/dp/roper/kings/3064.html

This is a forum for intelligent and scientific discussion, when people make claims and try to assert them as true, they are expected to support their claims with evidence, otherwise their claims will be dismissed, making it pointless to have even posted these claims in the first place.

As they say here, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Meaning that you are responsible for supporting your claims with evidence.
I did a few searches of my own, I didn't find any evidence to support them myself.
Did you happen to look around at a few more of those sites that your search brought up? Does the fact that the ONE site you listed to support your remarks did not have any historical or scientific references bother you?

 

[Dreamwalker]

Well i suppose most people hear know the thoughts i have on that issue. Enough to say that i disagree with David on this one.

No problem with that, also it was only aimed at David...

I believe all that is in the physical universe and all other things other than God Himself was created By God.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Ah, but that was not my question,was it? I wanted to make an example why atheists try to prove the inexistance of god with the bible.

God has promised that He will avenge the wrongs done to His followers and He will.

Ok, so it would end in a "my god is stronger than your god" situation...

 

[Adstar]

I believe all that is in the physical universe and all other things other than God Himself was created By God.

Ah, but that was not my question, was it? I wanted to make an example why atheists try to prove the inexistance of god with the bible.

Yes i know that wasn't your question. And from my experience athiests do use the topic of creation/evolution to justify their disbelief. And i suppose it is more of a honest use of the bible by atheists than to say God is bad therefore God is not.

God has promised that He will avenge the wrongs done to His followers and He will.

Ok, so it would end in a "my god is stronger than your god" situation...

Oh i would never use such a statement "my god is stronger than your god" because i am believer in the one and only God. The God of Abraham. Maybe a hindu might use such a statement but not me

All praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[David F.]

having read your posts and mustafha's, I can understand where she's coming from.
you do not provide references for your statements that, archeologists have produced entire libraries for Canaanite nations, and that it was society which was ravaged by venereal disease, even the animals.
the one link below out of the five produced, mentions it in passing, but also does not provide, a reference source.

http://www.pbc.org/old-pbc1/dp/roper/kings/3064.html

This is a forum for intelligent and scientific discussion, when people make claims and try to assert them as true, they are expected to support their claims with evidence, otherwise their claims will be dismissed, making it pointless to have even posted these claims in the first place.

As they say here, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Meaning that you are responsible for supporting your claims with evidence.
I did a few searches of my own, I didn't find any evidence to support them myself.
Did you happen to look around at a few more of those sites that your search brought up? Does the fact that the ONE site you listed to support your remarks did not have any historical or scientific references bother you?

I didn't support? Did you actually read the references? The Canaanite library (libraries) are from the dig at Ugarit. They support the writings of Philo Byblos who translated the ancient Phonecian writings (ancient for his time) to a book he called Phoenikika or "Phoenician Matters". (I've said all this before). We have then two sources (actually as far as I am aware the only two sources concerning the ancient society of the Canaanites) which give the details which others have summarized and I have briefly mentioned on this thread.

You seem to be saying that if it is not on the INTERNET then it is not a real source? You're kidding, right? If anything, I would argue the other way since anyone can put something on the Internet. I would argue that the only real sources are printed and the secondary sources are on the Internet since anything on the Internet should also be found in printed material, but not necessarily visa-versa. What I am seeing is a lack of motivation (lazyness) to go to your local library and get the actual book(s). After all, I can't hand them to you. I have told you exactly what to look for - "Philo of Byblos" and "Ugarit".

Here, I'll even give you some books:

"Hebrew qedesha and her Akkadian Cognates." Ugarit-Forschungen, 1986
"Ancient Near Eastern Texts, Relating to the Old Testament", with supplement. James B. Pritchard. PrincetonUP:1969 (3rd ed)
"Nelson's Illustrated Encyclopedia of Bible Facts", eds. Packer, Tenney, White. Thomas Nelson: 1995 (2nd ed)
"Ugaritic Mythology - A Study of Its Leading Motifs", Julian Obermann (also available online from Biblio - Rare books).
"Ugarit: Cities of the Biblical World (Cities of the Biblical World (Lutterworth))", Adrian Curtis, Lutterworth Press; 1985, ISBN: 0718824571 (available from Amazon)
"Religious Texts from Ugarit (Biblical Seminar)" - Amazon.
There are more on-line but I won't list them since you can go find them yourself, just to go http://www.book-books.org/archaeological-research:-a-brief-introduction.html and type in Ugarit
​

I am quite sure this is not all the books in the world on this subject.

You know the "Liar Liar Pants on Fire" defense doesn't really mean anything - right?

 

[David F.]

Well actually our bodies are not ours at all. Our bodies are owned by God. In that post i was only using PC logic to demonstrate the conflict between the human rights and woman’s rights that the worldly use to argue a case for mass murder.

And i disagree with you. People can cut a limb off their bodies they can put banned drugs into their bodies. People can attempt to do anything they please with their bodies but of course there usually are consequences to any action. weather or not one is prepared for the consequences.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Yes, of course you are right, I should have said illegal. We can do anything we want, but, as you say, we must be willing to face the consequences.