Will Science Eventually Drown Religion?

[Cris]

Rjr6,

are religions dedicated to finding truth, or revealing it?

Neither. Religions are not looking since they claim they have found the truth. In the case of theism the answer to everything is a god did it.

Religions start with an answer and then try to make everything fit the answer. Science begins with questions and looks for the answers.

My opinion, since you asked, is that religious beliefs are going to get more and more important the more science describes the universe.

It would seem even your opinions are misinformed. The evidence over the centuries shows the exact opposite. As science reveals more and more then we see religions gradually lose control over the world they once ruled. Religions once stated what everyone was to believe but as science revealed real knowledge religions have always given in to science. It seems inevitable that that trend will continue. Religions have yet to reveal a single truth. Science on the other hand has amassed vast libraries of knowledge.

I find in this forum that there is a general idea among atheists that people are religous because they misunderstand the science of the universe, or because not understanding the science, they developed religion.

Science represents knowledge which is taking time to discover. Religion grew in the absence of knowledge by creating fantasy explanations of the universe which was not understood. But why people become religious seems far more to do with where they were born and the dominant indoctrination influence in their culture rather than any informed choice or reasoned questioning of the universe.

I may not have a very scientific background, but my beliefs have nothing to do with trying to understand the scientific nature of the universe.

So you chose religion out of ignorance then?

The ways and whys of the universe are totally independent of my belief in a deity.
I am not very scholarly on religions, either. But, I believe that I am far from being alone.

That ignorance of science and how the universe functions leads to religious fantasy is indeed widespread, and that is certainly nothing worthy of pride.

 

[glaucon]

The answer is no.
Never underestimate the human fear of responsibility.

 

[dixonmassey]

1. Religions will eventually fade away in favour of scientific principles.

There are more similarities between science and religion than scientists would like to admit. Politicians feel that and use science in a religion-like fashion more and more.

2. Religions will become more mundane or eccentric depending on the social structure in place.

The main societary purpose of religion is to justify status, property, etc. of those who's got theirs, and keep in check those who didn't get theirs yet (and most likely will never get it). The ratio mundanity to eccentricity is in direct correlation with ratio of those who's got theirs and those who didn't.

 

[rjr6]

Rjr6,

Neither. Religions are not looking since they claim they have found the truth. In the case of theism the answer to everything is a god did it.
Religions start with an answer and then try to make everything fit the answer. Science begins with questions and looks for the answers.

Let's give sderenzi a chance to answer.

It would seem even your opinions are misinformed. The evidence over the centuries shows the exact opposite. As science reveals more and more then we see religions gradually lose control over the world they once ruled. Religions once stated what everyone was to believe but as science revealed real knowledge religions have always given in to science. It seems inevitable that that trend will continue. Religions have yet to reveal a single truth. Science on the other hand has amassed vast libraries of knowledge.

Thats right - nukes, the religous right, shia' and sunni (sp), muslims, christians, Israel -yeah we're getting to a point where religion is meaningless.

Science represents knowledge which is taking time to discover. Religion grew in the absence of knowledge by creating fantasy explanations of the universe which was not understood. But why people become religious seems far more to do with where they were born and the dominant indoctrination influence in their culture rather than any informed choice or reasoned questioning of the universe.

I don't agree with you

So you chose religion out of ignorance then?

who said I was religous? ignorant maybe

That ignorance of science and how the universe functions leads to religious fantasy is indeed widespread, and that is certainly nothing worthy of pride.

pride goeth before the fall

 

[Oniw17]

who said I was religous? ignorant maybe

Have you converted since the evolution video thread or are you just that stupid?

 

[rjr6]

Have you converted since the evolution video thread or are you just that stupid?

I am theists, I wouldn't escalate that to having a religion, but in a technical sense I am religous.

 

[Prince_James]

Thomas Jefferson thought we'd have no religion by this time.

It would seem that he was wrong.

Will science ever make religion obsolete? No. Because science is observation of the natural world. It is not a moral force, it is not a comforting force, it does not accord to human archetypes and societies...

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

http://theempiricalchurch.blogspot.com/

 

[Thomas]

I'm interested in knowing whether you think religious ideology will eventually be replaced by a scientific one. Currently there are many world religions each dedicated to finding the truth about society / faith. What we see is a skew between them however in the reality behind them. This offers us a few conclusions:

1. Religions will eventually fade away in favour of scientific principles.

2. Religions will become more mundane or eccentric depending on the social structure in place.

Give your opinions.

Yay to number one!!!!!

 

[Thomas]

evolution video thread? can i see?

 

[Thomas]

Hahaha there is a banned list....why was Abdullathebomber banned? i can only guess?

 

[Oniw17]

Not quite evolution, but we have a few of those here, use search on your sciforums toolbar.

 

[rjr6]

The "warm fuzzy" I'm talking about is a father figure/protector in the sky who promises eternal life.

superluminal,

To clarify: Our father who art in heaven is not a warm fuzzy. That is what I agree with. Not that he is not there, but just the belief that he is santa claus.

 

[Oniw17]

What the fuck are you talking about? You think God is Santa Clause? WOW!

 

[audible]

I'm interested in knowing whether you think religious ideology will eventually be replaced by a scientific one. Currently there are many world religions each dedicated to finding the truth about society / faith. What we see is a skew between them however in the reality behind them. This offers us a few conclusions:

1. Religions will eventually fade away in favour of scientific principles.

science has always been there, religious fantasies fade away regardless, http://www.godchecker.com/, the egyptians lasted 3000 yrs the romans about 1300 yrs, greeks about 1000 yrs, religions come and go it's a fact.

2. Religions will become more mundane or eccentric depending on the social structure in place.

I personally think there will always be some kind of religious lunacy. but in the future so small, as to not the effect the safety and the advancement of man.

 

[Gordon]

Yes! unfortunately not in my lifetime!





I think that's happening already, Haven't you seen the number of atheist's websites, videos on youtube, etc..?

You are entitled to your beliefs but as this is a 'Scientific Forum', debate should be about facts and therefore you have no entitlement to distort facts.

Atheists have been saying that religion is dead since at least the eighteenth century (especially post French Revolution). Many atheists at that time (much as some today) claimed that if you got rid of religion, mankind would progress into a more advanced, civilised society. History (especially after two world wars in the last century) has of course somewhat dented that as a proposition and in fact in the last 50 years it has been atheism that has been losing adherents. Web sites are not a good way of gauging majority opinion, particularly not world opinion since the predominance of western (and especially US) web sites is totally unrepresentative of world demography.

Across most of the world except where imposed by the state, atheism has never been a popular belief (it probably has not been 'popular' even there!). States that have tried to impose atheism have eventally had to give this up. Examples are post revolutionary France, USSR, China, Albania and many others.

Even in the western world, the last UK census (2001) for the first time had a voluntary 'religion' question. 92% chose to answer it and of those only 9 million stated they had 'No Religion' (presumably those regarding themseleves either as atheists or agnostics etc.) whilst 45 million claimed an adherence to a recognised religion. This hardly represents atheism triumphing over religion!

In the majority world, christianity is increasing dramatically in countries which were formally officially atheist. In China for instance Wikipedia states as follows:

'Recent estimated figures of the number of Christians in China are varying. The official figure in 2002, which consist of members from Official Protestant churches is about 15 million, while some estimation on members of Chinese house church vary from 50 million to 100 million. Kiven Choy stated in a Chinese weekly newspaper in Hong Kong that, the correct number of Protestants in China should be at around 20 million, while Time Magazine recently reported 65 million'. Whatever the exact figure, it's a very large number of people and they are almost all new christians!!

In the whole world, those of 'no religion' (includes persons with no formal, organised religion including agnostics, freethinkers, humanists, secularists, etc.) amounted in 2000 to 775 million or only 12% of the world population and this proportion was falling not rising! (Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm )

I suspect with what has been happening in China since 2000 that a more recent update of these figures would show a further fall in the 'no religion' category.

Whoever is right about the existence of God or not, it is the 'no God' side which is losing adherents across the world.

regards,


Gordon.

 

[audible]

You are entitled to your beliefs but as this is a 'Scientific Forum', debate should be about facts and therefore you have no entitlement to distort facts.

and you do the very same, it does'nt say on the site you posited, whether atheism is up or down or stable, all it says is non religion, is falling. do you wonder at it.

mainly through fear, however a lot of the time to be accepted, there are a huge amount of non religious people who play act at being religious.
if you live amongst fundimentalist muslims or catholics, it's wise to say your one as well is it not.
it is most certainly not wise at present to shout out your an atheist especially in the bible belt of america or islam, especially if you have a family.

these next two quotes are from two well respected forum members, and will clarify the reasoning for the rise of islam and drop in non religious.

It's simple self-satisfying emotionalism that gives them warm fuzzy feelings that they want to believe is derived externally. In its basic form it is self delusion often reinforced by peer pressure, indoctrination, culture emphasis, and similarly deluded members of various support groups.

I think there's a lot to what you're saying, Cris. Some of the same motivations and indoctrinations that we see in superstitions seem to be at work in religion as well: learned primarily from parents, social sharing, belief without evidence, etc.

Take knocking on wood, for instance. Probably very few people ever actually do this when they're alone. You "knock on wood," and say it, when others are present as a sort of social announcement and acknowledgment of your wishes or desires, but mostly to gain approval and acknowledgment of peers that observe the gesture.

I think much religious participation is like this. I'm sure their are plenty of those that will pray before eating even the smallest meals, say "amen" aloud, raise their hands on high, and other physical gestures of piety. But these are gestures of piety that are meant to demonstrate your piety to others more than they are to seek approval of the supernatural agent(s) involved.

I think many of these "experiences" that people go on about as their "proof" of their supernatural agents' existence are likewise public piety, designed more to get peer approval and acknowledgment. Public displays of piety are almost a contest among some believers: little fishes on their bumpers, the number of children being indoctrinated in their families represented by equal numbers of decals on the back windows of their SUVs, crucifix necklaces, carrying a bible to work and school (leaving it in open and obvious at all times), signing the cross, offering a "blessed day" at the end of phone calls, etc, etc.

 

[Gordon]

I never cease to be amazed at how 'evidence based' atheists wish to dispute facts that do not suit them.

I do not believe that truth is affceted by majority belief so the 'numbers game' is only of academic interest, however I am interested in logic and your logic fails.

Clearly in repressive societies you would expect people to be more likely to go with the societal norm than against it but the results of the census I included (about which you have carefully chosen not to comment) are from the UK, which is not a repressive society but one where you can declare yourself to be of any religion or none with total impunity. Note that the religion question was not even compulsory to answer at all, but 92% chose voluntarily to do so!

In regard to the world figures, the changes in world society which would be likely to make a change either up or down are not that many more people are now under repressive religious regimes (the number and size of Islamic states and their unfortunate repressed populations have not changed greatly in magnitude in recent times) but it is people living in states which were formally repressive atheist societies such as Eastern Europe, China etc. that have changed considerably in number terms. If atheism was a doctrine of choice, these people would have happily kept it whilst those with religious leanings in the free western world would be turning more and more to atheism.

But the figures just do not support this. Large numbers of those who lived in previously officially atheist countries are now voluntarily choosing to believe in God, whilst belief in God in a free western democracy such as the UK is holding firm. So the figures show that atheism as a philosophy is loverall osing ground. As I stated at the beginning, this is not directly related to what may or may not be true but I affirm that as a statistical fact it cannot be disputed.

What is perhaps more important is that in my lifetime the view of 'positive atheism' that humankind can of itself create a much better society which was stiill quite a popular view in the UK when I was a teenager (about 40 years ago) has now (it seems to me) virtually disappeared as a seriously held view. Most atheistic views promoted are now much more pessimistic about the future generally and are more to do with doing the best I can personally against a worsening general backdrop of society. This last is just my view from my own observations and discussions with people over the years (albeit many people and many years!). I admit that I have no independent research to confirm or deny it so present that merely as an opinion.


regards,


Gordon.

 

[audible]

Gordon: not replying to most of your other post was only due to the possiblity of repeating myself.
your figures are some what sketchy, at best.
non religious people have always been about a quarter of the population, as your world view shows.

however you have to take in the religious diversity of the christians, (34000 different sects) so lets play silly games.
of that 42 million british christians how many are catholic, mormon, baptist, etc.
whereas atheism is of a common non belief.

with statistics, you can make it read whatever you wish.

you have'nt shown whether there is a rise or fall in the uk, of the non religious, and as your world view shows again, atheists are listed separately, from the non religious, so is this fall due to them becoming religious, or something else.
and you keep refering to atheist countries however these are non religious countries( no state religion) I've never seen or heard of any country adopting atheism as a state philosophy.

 

[lightgigantic]

audible

however you have to take in the religious diversity of the christians, (34000 different sects) so lets play silly games.
of that 42 million british christians how many are catholic, mormon, baptist, etc.
whereas atheism is of a common non belief.

I think this site offers enough evidence to counter this claim

I've never seen or heard of any country adopting atheism as a state philosophy.

then you haven't done much reading on the historical application of communism in russia in china