- I don't understand Chad, if I may call you so,
Chad is my first name.
- I did not think we were discussing literature I don't consider the bible as literature, I thought it was a book fo religion. So if you want to discuss it as literature that is indeed another matter.However I don't see the point but then as I admitted I have no interest in literature.
A definition of "literature" can be found here:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literature
It is an irrelevancy if such collections of literary writings are used religiously or not. The gospels are literature as they fit the first two definitions provided.
- I think it is fantasy. I thought I was very clear about that and that the evidence you presented was not evidence but heresay recorded years after in the bible...
- Is it your view that we discuss it and it is fantasy so we see it as a literary work? ... but it then assumes another quality of a religious book if one uses it to support their world view.
This is conflation of religious practice with debate of literary interpretation on a single topic. No. I am saying, that for argument's sake we can both treat it as fictional literature
(AND TO BE CONSISTENT WE HAVE TO INCLUDE THE NON-BIBLICAL ACCOUNTS AS FICTIONAL TOO!), and see what turns in our interpretation.I am not trying to be confrontational I simply don't understand where you are coming from.Fiction or not, it doesn't matter. Let's figure out the answer to the question from the text material. The point is the topic you are bringing up, the historicity of the gospels is best placed in a proper forum such as this one:
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/th...lity-of-the-resurrection.142956/#post-3240215 Here, we don't have to worry about that. We only have to determine how to make sense of the crucifixion (whether the accounts are fictional or not, is a side issue to making sense of the actual narrative.) It is a secondary debate and belongs in its proper threads.
- You appear to want to discuss the bible as a literary work and I for one ask about the credibility ...why is it foolish to ask about credibility...it would seem foolish not to determine credibility in any matter.
You are claiming to consider it as fictional and ask for credibility. This is inconsistent.
To this end, I hope you will humor me and bend a little bit and read this following article by an ATHEIST author regarding "the Christ Myth Theory":
https://strangenotions.com/an-atheist-historian-examines-the-evidence-for-jesus-part-1-of-2/
- If you insist on treating it as literature why this need to establish some historical credibility?... which I note simply does not exist.
You brought that up, first, not me, by asking about the timing! So you are guilty of your own accusation.
- You say you come from one direction and yet you then try and slip the reference to a record in history you use to in effect say Jesus was real... that seems inconsistent do I miss something?
YES YOU DID! I did not say that at all. I merely noted extra-biblical sources that reference the crucifixion. I only stated that such extra-biblical sources were "interesting", "worth noting" or "something to think about." (For me the reality of Jesus does not matter in order to read the works from a fantastical persuasion. I'm not asking for that. I also tried to note, that I am happy to discuss those types of issue on a personal basis. These types of beliefs and determinings are not pertinent here, as that it is a matter of personal inclinations. He can be a fictional character, and we can sill see what they authors are trying to mean by the narrative of the crucifixion. This is my point.)
- I thought I was being mature and indeed polite and above all I thought my approach was mature.I try to write very simply so what I say is clear...
I have ADHD, so I apologize, sometimes this disroder gets the better of me. I don't know exactly who said what exactly without re-reading the posts. Instead, I just focus on the sentences themselves, and don't really worry too much about who exactly is saying what. But if you read the postings by others here, it should be quite clear why I called attention to this.
- I take time to think of simple words rather than use a word that may have some going to their dictionary.
All the words I have used in this discussion can be found in many free dictionaries online, so their definitions are not uneasily accessible. I have not used any words that have to be found in free dictionaries online. I also don't think I used any overly complicated terms.
- I too am here to chat and already thought we were having a rather nice chat and mature I thought.
I must apologize. Again, I was referring to the entirety of the thread. I wasn't trying to single anyone in particular out (as others have done with me), just making the observation of the whole thread. Go read comments by others, and you will see what I mean.
- Do you mean by immature that if I cant talk about Jesus in glowing terms and indeed the whole concept that together with my belief that the story is mere fantacy that I am immature...?
You can. This is permissible. My point was that I "Chad" am not personally the subject of the topic of this question. And this is why I am trying to get you to understand that my personal belief on the topic of the gospels as reliable or unreliable is secondary and not what this question addresses. That debate again belongs here:
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/th...lity-of-the-resurrection.142956/#post-3240215
- I certainly do not wish you to think I ridicule you but perhaps you shoud be really clear on what we discuss...You say literature well fair enough but really is the bible to be thought of as literature or as a holy book.
We CAN set the argument of "Holy Book" aside, and just focus on the contents. This is what I am aiming for. This way, you can maintain your skepticism, and I can maintain my faith, and we can actually talk about the written words themselves irrespective of faith in them or not. It is not a ludicrous request.
- I am confused. Are you into it as a fictional work of art unrelated to the religious implication...did you go to bible school to learn about a work of art or to learn about religion?You seem rather wrapped up in religion from what you say so far and thats ok but if you say you discuss literature does that not then hint that you regard the OP as somewhat fictional. I just think you are so wrapped up in your religion that you want to chat about it and somewhat establish it and then you do this sidestep of "we are only discussing literature".
This is conflation of my personal beliefs with the actual contents of the work and is about me, NOT the topic. I will be happy to discuss this issue personally.
Let me ask you directly. Do you regard the New Testament as real in so far as it is written about someone who was presented as the son of God and that we have in history such a person that he lived and died and rose from the dead after three days of being dead?. Or do you regard that story as entirely fictional but as a story you want to investigate the plot and the characters?
Sorry for lots of questions but I dont get to talk to theisits so I have many questions but they are very simple.
Personal questions may be directed to my email at
chadfisher2423@gmail.com or you may send me a message. (I don't have anything to hide, but they are personal issues and don't reflect the topic of this discussion.)
- If we discuss a fictional story from a literary view I confess that I have no interest... I see no point in considering what this person might do or why or what their motivation was etc. I have seen enough real life not to wish to read about stuff that is made up..truth is stranger than fiction they say and I agree...who needs fiction..someone with out a life in my view.
Again, the proper forum for discussing the historicity of the gospels probably should be placed in a thread like this one:
http://www.sciforums.com/threads/th...lity-of-the-resurrection.142956/#post-3240215
As I am new here, I haven't gotten around to putting my 2 cents in there, yet, but I will eventually. For
now, I am happy to respond to these types of questions on a personal basis if you message me, or allow permission for me to message you.
- Why did you go to University? to learn about the literary content of the bible or to learn about religion?
To my understanding my name is not in the question of this thread. Again, any personal questions can be directed to my email at
chadfisher2423@gmail.com or you message me here.
- Your style suggests you are or would like to be a preacher...
Personal questions can be directed to my email:
chadfisher2423@gmail.com or you may message me.
- If I think someone is having a go I try to ignore it after all they can think what they like about me...
Well, your view and my view differs here: I shed the light on ridiculous behavior, and I don't ignore it. I don't act like a bystander when someone is being a bully of any kind, even in words on a forum or on social media, neither toward me, nor toward anyone else.
http://www.drwoliver.com/newstories/bullying.htm tells kids to "If you're being bullied: Be assertive, look the bully in the eye and tell him or her to stop." I think adults should do the same on cyberspace!