Why the West has lost the ideological war against Muslims?

[(Q)]

You seem obsessed with my delusions.

Another delusion.

And I'm not too impressed with your judgement either.
You've shown yourself as much a victim of rationalisations as you accuse the theists of being.

Yeah, right. Please remember which of the 2 of us believes in sky daddies and fairy tales.

Well my opinions are just delusions, and you will insist on evidence, which you then condemn as propaganda.

It's lose-lose for me where you are concerned.

The best you ever offer in regards to evidence is merely another Muslims interpretation of Islam; propaganda.

That is the point I was trying to make.

Then, get an education.

 

[(Q)]

By focusing on some things not really included in education.

1. Significance of life: this is not a religious description but a personal one. All life is precious and valuable; it is irreplaceable and hence to be valued. Something along the lines of "no man is an island".

Sounds rather atheistic, nothing spiritual there.

2. Values: these are beliefs (not necessarily religious), standards and ethics that are cherished.

Morality from evolution, nothing spiritual there.

3. Awareness: to be aware of the world beyond the self; transcendence.

One's faculties are in place, nothing spiritual there.

4. Connecting: working towards a relationship with yourself, with people and with nature (animals, plants, the elements).

Relationships don't require spiritualism.

5. Self-knowledge: using all of the above to examine one's self; to get a sense of who and what we are.

An overactive imagination, nothing spiritual there.

These are all subjective and difficult to share, but they are essential to holistic health and sanity and define what separates us from other species, the extent of our consciousness.[/quote]

Sorry, you failed miserably, try again.

That is a Christian concept. In Hinduism, there is dualism, i.e. all people are a part of God, so there is God in everyone. In Islam, we are a species with the desire and ability to study creation, with the gift of endless ever-changing creation presented to us. There is a system of social structure and ethics in both, but it is a guide, not an absolute.

Sorry, no gods have yet been discovered in people. Social structure and ethics come from sociology and evolution, not religion.

You seem to think that religion manipulates people, when it is, in fact, the other way round.

Then, we should rid ourselves of religious disease immediately, regardless.

 

[Godless]

Islamic countries are fucked up, but trying to force them to change into 21st century democratic standards is like asking a puppy not to shit on your carpet.

The point is "tryint to force" one can't win the war on idealogy by the point of a gun, what you get is exactly the opposite. That's why the US screwed up going to war on false pretence, it lied to it's people, and now we have a quackmire "spelling?" anyhow it's a pitifull mess this Pres.SoB got us in to. It has been coming for a while too.

Perhaps the world is right, and we are just finding out. The Pres. Is an idiot!.
click

 

[lightgigantic]

Q,

“ Originally Posted by samcdkey
By focusing on some things not really included in education.
1. Significance of life: this is not a religious description but a personal one. All life is precious and valuable; it is irreplaceable and hence to be valued. Something along the lines of "no man is an island". ”

Sounds rather atheistic, nothing spiritual there.

On what grounds does atheism unify humanity? Apart from things like exploitation of resources which tends to cause disparity ....

“ 2. Values: these are beliefs (not necessarily religious), standards and ethics that are cherished. ”

Morality from evolution, nothing spiritual there.

It does seem that religion offers the best resources for normative values however - that is your picture of moralistic evolution is largely contributed to by religious bodies

“ 3. Awareness: to be aware of the world beyond the self; transcendence. ”

One's faculties are in place, nothing spiritual there.

Unfortunately however one's sense of awareness is greatly affected from attachment to inferior things that gives rise to lust wrath, avarice etc - all of which displace one's faculties

“ 4. Connecting: working towards a relationship with yourself, with people and with nature (animals, plants, the elements). ”

Relationships don't require spiritualism.

Particularly if it is a relationship of exploitation - in otherwords when one acts only for the sake of one's own ego, or extended egotism (MY family, MY country etc)

“ 5. Self-knowledge: using all of the above to examine one's self; to get a sense of who and what we are. ”

An overactive imagination, nothing spiritual there.

I don't suppose you care to elaborate on what spiritual processes you have practiced to enable you to make such authoratative statements?

Actually the issue of examining what we are examining with is becoming more and more apparent in fields of even physics ....

“ That is a Christian concept. In Hinduism, there is dualism, i.e. all people are a part of God, so there is God in everyone. In Islam, we are a species with the desire and ability to study creation, with the gift of endless ever-changing creation presented to us. There is a system of social structure and ethics in both, but it is a guide, not an absolute. ”

Sorry, no gods have yet been discovered in people. Social structure and ethics come from sociology and evolution, not religion.

You encounter severe ontological difficulties when you approach theology - who are the authorities doing the discovering? Are they applying epistemologies appropriate to theology?

Also you give a higher ontological status to evolutionary sociology than theology, saying that religion is an abstraction of socialogy, or something like that. So obviously you are applying general principles to determine that one social structure of another - what are those general principles you are applying, aside from any discussion of the basis of social history or a material or spiritual world.

“ You seem to think that religion manipulates people, when it is, in fact, the other way round. ”

Then, we should rid ourselves of religious disease immediately, regardless.

So in otherwords it is more intelligent to disregard something entirely rather than establish or understand something in its proper functional nature? Hardly the attitude of a thoughtful person ....

 

[Godless]

On what grounds does atheism unify humanity? Apart from things like exploitation of resources which tends to cause disparity

What a crock of shit. It's religious differences that historically has caused exploitation & disparity. Ahteism never got a start. We were forced into silence for our lives, untill the day came when the west finally stood up against these BS religious idealogies!

It does seem that religion offers the best resources for normative values however

Sure if you don't mind killing people because they worked on a Sabath, Stone to death an adulteress, and things of that nature...

in otherwords when one acts only for the sake of one's own ego, or extended egotism (MY family, MY country etc)

When one please his/her own ego, it does the most good for all. My country, gives us patriotism, My life I tend to take care of it, My food, I don't puke it so I can share it, My breath, I can only breath for myself if your lungs don't work your fucked!

You encounter severe ontological difficulties when you approach theology

Ontology and theology don't belong in the same sentence. That's an oximoron!

As for the rest of your crap, it's that CRAP!

Godless

 

[(Q)]

On what grounds does atheism unify humanity? Apart from things like exploitation of resources which tends to cause disparity ....

For the former, atheism would remove the divisions caused by religion. For the latter, that is one of most ridiculous statements I've ever heard.

It does seem that religion offers the best resources for normative values however - that is your picture of moralistic evolution is largely contributed to by religious bodies

What religious bodies?

Unfortunately however one's sense of awareness is greatly affected from attachment to inferior things that gives rise to lust wrath, avarice etc - all of which displace one's faculties

Those are religious concepts that have no meaning in the real world.

Particularly if it is a relationship of exploitation - in otherwords when one acts only for the sake of one's own ego, or extended egotism (MY family, MY country etc)

YOUR religion. Atheism does not promote exploitation.

I don't suppose you care to elaborate on what spiritual processes you have practiced to enable you to make such authoratative statements?

What is a 'spiritual process?'

Actually the issue of examining what we are examining with is becoming more and more apparent in fields of even physics ....

Such as...?

So in otherwords it is more intelligent to disregard something entirely rather than establish or understand something in its proper functional nature? Hardly the attitude of a thoughtful person ....

Religion can be easily disregarded as it's built entirely on blind faith. Do you hold the Flying Spagetti Monster in the same regard or disregard it altogether?

 

[Michael]

The point is "tryint to force" one can't win the war on idealogy by the point of a gun, what you get is exactly the opposite. That's why the US screwed up going to war on false pretence, it lied to it's people, and now we have a quackmire "spelling?" anyhow it's a pitifull mess this Pres.SoB got us in to. It has been coming for a while too.

Perhaps the world is right, and we are just finding out. The Pres. Is an idiot!.
click

This was a response to that clip which I thought was quite well written:

Of course he's an idiot. But his real idiocy doesn't lie in his stuttering or his stupid facial expressions--no, his real stupidity lies in his ARROGANCE.

G.W. Bu$h is a pampered little BRAT raised into a world of unquestioned privilege by a former drug-running CIA-head named George and a callous bitch named Barbara. Dubya's grand-daddy, Prescott, made a big chunk of money as a financial aide to the Nazis, DURING World War II! Morality has never been an issue for the Bu$h clan--*power* and *wealth* are what they focus on, because their souls are so shallow and atrophied that it's the only thing in life they can understand.

These people live like hi-tech royalty, but in their hearts & minds they are nothing more than crude, stone-age brutes. These people are the brutal gorillas who've bashed in skulls to stay the king-of-the-hill since we were still apes. And yet they see their callous, cold, sociopath behavior as STRENGTH and VISION!--this is how sick & twisted these deluded elitists are; the world is truly upside down to them. Think Colonel Kurtz from _Apocalypse Now_. Power-mad.

Bush is an idiot mostly because he thinks he's actually smarter than the rest of us. He smirks & squirms into the camera as if he's talking DOWN to us, and THAT is what makes him an idiot. But one of the privileges of the ruling elite is that they never have to admit wrong-doing or pay for their mistakes. They keep enjoying the good life of mansions, yachts, luxuriant meals & vacations, surrounded by circles of sycophantic ass-kissers who help keep them cozy and clueless in their deluded state of arrogance.

Someone should make Bu$h pay for his crimes. It would be a beautiful act of righteous justice. Being an idiot is one thing, but being an idiot (and a BRUTAL one) at the helm of an entire country is unacceptable. The human race doesn't have enough time or breathing space to let morons like this keep holding humanity back. We have the power to feed, clothe, and house the entire population of this planet, and yet we spend most of our energy on WAR-TOYS and KILLING, just so those few aggressive apes get to stay at the top of their paltry little hill and keep pretending that they're the best of humanity. Actually, they are the WORST of humanity. Are we going to let them keep spinning their power-mad day-dreams of conquest & nuke this entire planet in the process, or are we gonna stand up and re-acquaint them with REALITY?

[3] Posted by: Grit | August 19, 2006 12:27 PM

 

[Michael]

As to religion, really if you think about it, it doesn't matter if people are religious or not - we will love and hate, heal and hurt etc ... because those qualities are inherent in humans regardless of belief. As governments go, I do believe that Republics tend manage our human qualities much better than other forms of governments, over the long haul, because most people are good and will act in ways that are good for the overall society.

I was reading over the weekend that the Earth may have another 40 years before CO2 will be so great that the sinks that hold CO2 will begin to release CO2. In 100 year the last glaciers in the North will have fully melted. Maybe this will come to pass or maybe not, but in the mean time if we let these sociopath Apes like Bush&Co run amuck it will be too late. So one thing we need to find out is why people elect idiots like Bush and try to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

MII

 

[lightgigantic]

For the former, atheism would remove the divisions caused by religion. For the latter, that is one of most ridiculous statements I've ever heard.

In otherwords the only grounds for unifying people under the banner of atheism is the destruction of religious institutions? Lets hope they are never successful because then their unity would fall apart if there were no more religious instituitions to dismantle ....

What religious bodies?

If you examine philanthropy you can see that it is pioneered and maintained by a vast majority of institutions that have some religious affiliation

Those are religious concepts that have no meaning in the real world.

When a person brandies the word "real world" around without making clear the epistemology they used to arrive at such a conclusion it usually indicates they are more interested in stating opinions rather than logical arguments. "real world" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

YOUR religion. Atheism does not promote exploitation.

Real religion actually unifies all living entites, after all they all owe their existence to god - atheism does promote exploitation because the ultimate analysis of one's existential position is to be an enjoyer of matter in this world - at the very least you don't see that communist china and russia were great paragons of human magnanimity.

What is a 'spiritual process?'

The process one applies to perceive what is meant by the word "spiritual " - its a similar general principle that one would apply a scientific process to come to the position of what is meant by the word "physics"

Such as...?

How consciousness affects our perception of dull matter

Here is one example

Religion can be easily disregarded as it's built entirely on blind faith. Do you hold the Flying Spagetti Monster in the same regard or disregard it altogether?

What do have as an evidence - I think the only people who give the same ontological status to the spaghetti monster as God are atheists

 

[Godless]

If you examine philanthropy you can see that it is pioneered and maintained by a vast majority of institutions that have some religious affiliation

Lighlittle, you know little don't you. The largest philanthropist organization in the US was founded by an atheist!. The former CEO of Microsoft. Bill Gates is an atheist.

 

[(Q)]

In otherwords the only grounds for unifying people under the banner of atheism is the destruction of religious institutions? Lets hope they are never successful because then their unity would fall apart if there were no more religious instituitions to dismantle ....

That makes no sense at all.

If you examine philanthropy you can see that it is pioneered and maintained by a vast majority of institutions that have some religious affiliation

Like, the Red Cross, for example?

How many atheist organizations existed that would have had the ability to pioneer anything?

When a person brandies the word "real world" around without making clear the epistemology they used to arrive at such a conclusion it usually indicates they are more interested in stating opinions rather than logical arguments. "real world" means a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

To theists, the real world is a world filled with gods, demons, angels and other such nonsense. But, of course, that's not the real world.

The real world uses observations and testing to arrive at conclusions, not epistemology, which IS opinion. You've got it bass ackwards.

Real religion actually unifies all living entites, after all they all owe their existence to god

I owe my existence to my parents as do you. If religion unified all living entities, why are there so many religion vehemently opposed and intolerant to one another? And besides, whose god are you talking about?

atheism does promote exploitation because the ultimate analysis of one's existential position is to be an enjoyer of matter in this world - at the very least you don't see that communist china and russia were great paragons of human magnanimity.

Ah yes, the tired old argument of communism. And YOU are not an enjoyer of matter?

The process one applies to perceive what is meant by the word "spiritual " - its a similar general principle that one would apply a scientific process to come to the position of what is meant by the word "physics"

So, tell me what is meant by the word 'spiritual' and I'll tell you what is meant by the word 'physics.' What exactly do you perceive?

How consciousness affects our perception of dull matter

Here is one example

From the link:

"Dr. Masaru Emoto discovered that crystals formed in frozen water reveal changes when specific, concentrated thoughts are directed toward them. He found that water from clear springs and water that has been exposed to loving words shows brilliant, complex, and colorful snowflake patterns. In contrast, polluted water, or water exposed to negative thoughts, forms incomplete, asymmetrical patterns with dull colors."

That is not physics, it is pseudoscience. Please note that the good doctor is not really a doctor at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto

What do have as an evidence - I think the only people who give the same ontological status to the spaghetti monster as God are atheists

There is exactly the same amount of evidence to support the existence of the flying spagetti monster as there is for your god or anyone elses. And since you don't acknowledge the fsm as a god, does that make you an atheist?

 

[Godless]

And since you don't acknowledge the fsm as a god, does that make you an atheist?

Indeed it does. Christians were once called atheists, for not believing in Roman gods.

 

[lightgigantic]

(Q)]

That makes no sense at all.

It was a response to "For the former, atheism would remove the divisions caused by religion. For the latter, that is one of most ridiculous statements I've ever heard." which also struck me as a bit speculative

Like, the Red Cross, for example?

Okay that's one - got any others?

How many atheist organizations existed that would have had the ability to pioneer anything?

Therefore they borrow from ideologies established in religion

To theists, the real world is a world filled with gods, demons, angels and other such nonsense. But, of course, that's not the real world.

In the absence of an argument look what I can do to your opinions
.....To atheists, the real world is a world filled with sex, economic development, sleeping and other such nonsense. But, of course, that's not the real world.

The real world uses observations and testing to arrive at conclusions, not epistemology, which IS opinion. You've got it bass ackwards.

And before they come to the point of observations they rely on epistemology to become qualified - I think you have confused the word epistemology with ontology - epistemology comes before ontology - for instance astronomy relies of the uniformity of time and space for their ontological perspective - there is no way to prove that time and space is uniform in other parts of the universe, but we assume it is.

I owe my existence to my parents as do you. If religion unified all living entities, why are there so many religion vehemently opposed and intolerant to one another? And besides, whose god are you talking about?

Successful epistemology grants the correct ontology - who do your parents owe their existence to? and so and so until you arrive at, what?

Ah yes, the tired old argument of communism. And YOU are not an enjoyer of matter?

The successful religious epistemology demands that I try not to be
Atheism doesn't seem to be the guru of peace and unity

So, tell me what is meant by the word 'spiritual' and I'll tell you what is meant by the word 'physics.' What exactly do you perceive?

A nature different from matter

From the link:
"Dr. Masaru Emoto discovered that crystals formed in frozen water reveal changes when specific, concentrated thoughts are directed toward them. He found that water from clear springs and water that has been exposed to loving words shows brilliant, complex, and colorful snowflake patterns. In contrast, polluted water, or water exposed to negative thoughts, forms incomplete, asymmetrical patterns with dull colors."
That is not physics, it is pseudoscience. Please note that the good doctor is not really a doctor at all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto

Sorry about that logical fallacy - what about their posts on the double slot quantum physics experiment?

There is exactly the same amount of evidence to support the existence of the flying spagetti monster as there is for your god or anyone elses. And since you don't acknowledge the fsm as a god, does that make you an atheist?

where are the devout followers of the flying spagetti monster?

 

[lightgigantic]

Lighlittle, you know little don't you. The largest philanthropist organization in the US was founded by an atheist!. The former CEO of Microsoft. Bill Gates is an atheist.

not necessarily - the guy has also purchased a bhagavad gita and liberally patronised religious instiutions also

But in terms of the global output of charity, you will still see that it is predominantly carried out by theistic spirited people - one big fat rich atheist may sponsor something or other, but on a grass roots level it is the theistic spirited people who are prepared to do the dirty work because they have a higher degree of self sacrifice

 

[lightgigantic]

Indeed it does. Christians were once called atheists, for not believing in Roman gods.

Well if the FSM is the closest thing you can come to as a phenomena that is greater than your conceptions of existence, it is a type of religion, albeit a primitive one, kind of like the cargo cult - in otherwords you are attributing a transcendental phenomena to a mundane thing - considering where you are at, that's pretty good

 

[lightgigantic]

Indeed it does. Christians were once called atheists, for not believing in Roman gods.

At least they were acknowledging sme sort of superior power beyond themselves, which is a more advanced proposal than its absence

 

[Godless]

Yawns politely. Sure lets just bring a little light on the subject:

Inquisitions, dark ages, crusades, religious wars, that is what your shity ass aptitudes of a "higher power" has brought to humanity.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yawns politely. Sure lets just bring a little light on the subject:

Inquisitions, dark ages, crusades, religious wars, that is what your shity ass aptitudes of a "higher power" has brought to humanity.

Unlike scientific progress, which has merely brought cluster bombs, precision missiles and other advanced weaponry, chemical and biological weapons as well as nuclear weapons?

Not to mention WWI and WWII which beat all religious crusades hollow.

 

[Godless]

Unlike scientific progress, which has merely brought cluster bombs, precision missiles and other advanced weaponry, chemical and biological weapons as well as nuclear weapons?

Surely scientist manipulated by RELIGIOUS MAJORITY who control governments with their pseudo idealogies.. You do understand that most wars fought since ancient times till today are religiously motivated don't you?

Not to mention WWI and WWII which beat all religious crusades hollow.

You might want to check your data there Sam, nothing can compare to the slaughter brought by religious idealogies, including both world wars, and minor wars combined, BTW most of those wars were of relgious nature.

click

Click

click

See the problem is when one speaks of relgious wars, most wrongly assumes that we mean christianities, or islamic wars, but in reality Sam, all relgious idealogies throughout all of ancient times till present day, had conflicts with one another. Therefore when one assumes that WWI & WWII killed most people in a secular war, they are not taking into account ancient history, religious origins in conflict, enforcement of idealogies. If you were to take account of all that, theism has brought the world the most wars, and conflict between the sects of idealogies and cultures.

 

[S.A.M.]

Surely scientist manipulated by RELIGIOUS MAJORITY who control governments with their pseudo idealogies.. You do understand that most wars fought since ancient times till today are religiously motivated don't you?

Really? They have not been about power shifts or imperialism or a haggle for natural resources?

With the unifying factor being color, tribe, community, country, empire or religion?

War is a conflict involving the organized use of weapons and physical force by states or other large-scale groups. Warring parties usually hold territory, which they can win or lose; and each has a leading person or organization which can surrender, or collapse, thus ending the war. Until the end of World War II, participants usually issued formal declarations of war.

Wars are usually a series of military campaigns between two opposing sides involving a dispute over, amongst others issues, sovereignty, territory, resources, religion, or ideology. A war to liberate an occupied country is called a "war of liberation"; a war between internal factions within a state is a civil war.

And the manipulated scientists...what exactly did they believe they were creating the weapons for? Were they forced to produce at gunpoint by religious clerics?