Why the West has lost the ideological war against Muslims?

[superluminal]

It's simple really. We've arrogantly over-wielded our considerable military power in a confused attempt to "secure" our interests in a region and among a people we still know next to nothing about. It's almost childishly amateurish, in hindsight, how we've bungled the opportunity to be viewed as a gentle giant in the court of world opinion, and still get what we want/need. Our recent political leaders (meaning the 20th/21st century) have been largely fools.

 

[Michael]

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."

-- Samuel P. Huntington

This is partly true, but the same could be said for pretty much all peoples in all places under all guises of ideologies.

The Egyptians used their military might to destroy and enslave the Nubians (mainly because the idea “meme” of Gold = Wealth = Power was a competitive one and Nubians were weak but had gold)
The Persians conquered the ME.
The Macedonians conquered the ME and India.
The Romans conquered North Africa, the Mediterranean and Europe.
The Arabs conquered the ME, North Africa, Spain and India.
The Mongolians Conquered China, Russia, Eastern Europe, India, the Middle East…
The Europeans conquered all of the New World, Africa, Australia, the Pacific Islands, the Middle East, India, South East China….

Many more can be added and so on and so on.


People, en masse, rarely give up their entire belief system. That said, new memes/ideas infiltrate societies all the time - if they are successful they flourish, if not they don’t. A good question is” What is the hallmark of a successful meme/idea? How is it measured in the general populous?

One successful meme is this one: “People only use 10% of their brain”. This is completely wrong but as a meme it is highly successful at replicating itself in the general populous. Probably because it is easy to understand and explains why some people are so smart (they use more) and other so dumb (they use less) or some people are successful and other not. Both of which would take books of information to and still leave us with an incomplete understanding of human nature and hence: “People only use 10% of their brain”!

But, by and large most memes are implanted into our brains as children (language and religion) and hence move through time from generation to generation. The only way to change those memes is to offer better alternatives.

So, what of politics?

I would say most have some basic core values at the centre of their governmental systems. The most basic and simplistic of governmental systems is Hereditary Monarchy. For example: The idea of a Pharaoh was VERY successful in the Egyptian governmental system. While basic, Hereditary Monarchies work well for MOST people within most cultures at any particular time. Familiar Hereditary governmental systems are one of the most successful means of governance and have been employed by most all peoples for most of history.
Why?
Undoubtable because of the genetic imperative of replicating genes. Supporting Kings, Sultans, Emperors, Shogunates or Pharaohs probably increases ones own chances of said genetic distribution. The ensuing stability also garnishes the support of the populous and their own genetic reproductive chances increase.

The genetic imperative is highly motivating. Bees will support a queen because they are somewhat related to her. Of course her DNA is being reproduced entirely but they share 2/3 of her DNA (well some are haploid) and so they will support her and hence some of their DNA is reproduced as well.

While it may seem mismatched at first glance: Politics are intimately intertwined with human nature, which is completely dictated by our biological makeup. At the most fundamental level is the imperative to reproduce.

 

[Michael]

Back to the topic, in the competition of memes there is “evolution” in the semantic sense. Other systems of government are tried – most fail.
“Democracy” worked well for the Greeks.
A “Republic” worked well for the Romans.
These memes have been around for thousands of years – they are successful.
They were bested by the Religious meme of Theocracy (in this case Xianity). But, while successful at spreading itself around, it was a failure of governance. Hence – back to square one: Hereditary Monarchy.

But these memes didn’t disappear. As society progressed semantic-evolution kicked in and new forms of government were tired again.
Democracies,
Republics
Communisms
Theocracies
All trying to replicate in our minds.

The Western meme of Communism was taken by the Chinese and transformed to meet their needs and rapidly spread to encompass, now, over a Billion people. The meme spread quickly in China, a country known for swallowing ideas and turning them Chinese, because in the competition of memes they had a proliferative edge that meshed well with the Chinese peasants and their history of recurrent bloody revolutions. But in the long haul that meme is being replaced with a new one. Why? Because, like Theocracy, it doesn’t work so well. While initially being successful – it is a long term failure. Communism hasn’t produced much of what was hoped for.

 

[S.A.M.]

Maybe we need to look for a new form of government. One that does not need the destruction of people as a criteria for success.

 

[Michael]

As to Islam. Islam has been used to govern people for thousands of years. In China itself Islam has been around for over a thousand years. But in the competition of ideas – Islam has not been successful at all in China.

So why did it work so well in the ME - why was Islam successful?

I’d argue that the Islamic belief is almost indistinguishable from the religious memes prevalent in the ME at that time. And, to me, the phrase: "There is only One God" is a statment and not a new one, it was first expressed in Egypt 1000s of years before. Also, it says nothing of human nature and doesn’t seem to lead one to an enlightened state of mind. Its a flat statment to be taken as either true or not true - that’s about it. So why was it so successful? Probably because Islamic government quickly reverted to the tried and true method of Hereditary Monarchy. Add to that the fact that money and goods kept flowing along the Indian-spice and Chinese-silk roads, and a Hereditary Monarchy ensures stability - hence reproduction. But that isn’t the case anymore. As soon as the Europeans found new trade routes it failed (when the Portuguese figured out how to sail around Africa it would be like hitting the MEGA-lotto).
Think back to China. Islam didn’t flourish in China because the Chinese already had an established and elaborate Hereditary Monarchy.

I’d say Hereditary Monarchy were, and are, being replaced with Republics because in the competition of memes - Republics appear, for now, to work much better.


A better question is:
Does Islam offer anything new as an ideology that hasn’t been expressed by Ancient Greek, Roman, Buddhist, Hindu or Taoist Philosophies? If so I’d be happy to hear which enlightenments gave Islam an edge? As a matter of fact, if anyone would like to write a particular Islamic enlightenment on the Nature of Human interaction that has not been expressed by earlier Philosophies then please I’d be happy to hear it.

Today Islam is left with only its own memes to fall back on.

Assuming Hereditary Monarchy is no match to Republicanism the question really is: What novel and stimulating memes does Islam offer to people that will see them reach mental enlightenment?

All societies each have their own Philosophical memes so when you answer the above question you’ll have you’re answer to the thread: Why the West has lost the ideological war against Muslims? If the answer is void then that is your answer, if the answer is brimming with deep insight - then the author has a point.

Other than that I’d just add that the battle is really over. Islam’s core value is anti-adaptation. It is considered “perfect” and should not be changed. In the competition of ideas, a stagnate idea is a dead one. I only see Islam propagating itself from generation to generation within the Muslim communities with some small amount of conversations through marriage or genuine affection (statistically this appears to be the case). Yet, in this world, each Muslim will now be exposed to the plethora of new ideas and hence Islam slowing fading into oblivion – that is unless it can change and then it really isn’t Islam anymore is it? Then it’s called Sufism or Bahá'í!


Michael II

 

[Michael]

Maybe we need to look for a new form of government. One that does not need the destruction of people as a criteria for success.

Yes, I truly hope that someday the people of the world will be at peace.
Maybe soon – 100 to 200 years?

But War isn’t a fault of the Republic form of government. It’s a government that has played on another biological fundamental – fear. I kind of thought education would reduce this. My Persian friend didn’t seem to agree. But he meditates and I don’t (although I wish I did) so maybe I’m wrong?


What is the answer?!?!

Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

I think totally eliminating spiritualism from life can lead to a kind of apathy and disregard for the value of what really matters, like relationships and individual integrity.

There is less introspection and even less accountability.

 

[Michael]

I think totally eliminating spiritualism from life can lead to a kind of apathy and disregard for the value of what really matters, like relationships and individual integrity.

There is less introspection and even less accountability.

While not “spiritual”, in the sense that I believe in the spirits, I really would like to meditate. Many people say when you remove the religion from Buddhism it’s still Buddhism and as a philosophy it’s pretty good - so I hear.
Maybe that is my path?

Without religion I still understand we are all a part of humanity and most people are good kind natured people, regardless of their religious or non-religious belief. Like you (I think?) I spend my time working in a university lab trying to uncover the biological secrets of evolution I hope that in some way that is good effort towards helping out humanity. And it can be fun sometimes too!


Michael

PS: I would also like to open a tea house – except I really only like drinking it not serving it!

 

[S.A.M.]

Well you can join me in my cranberry apple zinger with sliced lemon and ginger juliennes. Piping hot and spicy!

(we have weird stuff in common!)

 

[S.A.M.]

On topic:

Education can make a difference, but how do you define education?

Increase in knowledge? Or developing the ability to make rational decisions with integrity?

It seems to me we are losing out on values in the US.

There is a generic lack of respect and empathy which is disturbing.

Did you know 61% of Americans support torture as a method of interrogation?

What does that say about a society?

http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2006a/032406/032406h.htm

 

[S.A.M.]

Here is an interesting article on the effect of terrorism on Americans.

http://libertystreetusa.blogspot.com/2005/12/poll-indicates-majority-of-americans.html

 

[(Q)]

On topic:

Education can make a difference, but how do you define education?

Increase in knowledge? Or developing the ability to make rational decisions with integrity?

Increase in knowledge, making rational decisions comes from critical thinking skills.

It seems to me we are losing out on values in the US.

There is a generic lack of respect and empathy which is disturbing.

Is this a feeling you have?

Did you know 61% of Americans support torture as a method of interrogation?

What does that say about a society?

"Ghastly stories have surfaced how Egypt, Syria, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, and other Muslim states abuse and torture rendered men, inflicting more indignities on them than Muslim inmates have suffered at Guantanamo. Beatings, physical suspensions, electric shocks, and other cruel and degrading treatments have been reported. International human rights groups claim that in Uzbekistan two rendered prisoners were boiled to death."

http://www.counterpunch.org/khan06062005.html

"Muslim seminary students in Pakistan tortured a young Christian for five days and nights to force him to convert to Islam, according to a British human-rights monitor."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38509

And let's not forget the Muslim propaganda, which I'm sure is to follow but I'll paste it for you ahead of time:

"This act is totally contradictory to justice and it is unacceptable by all means. To force an accused or a prisoner to admit to something is not permitted in Islam, nor is it acceptable from a human point of view. This act is only accepted by people of no faith, oppressors and tyrants who want to convert people into slaves. All faiths condemn this act."

http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/politics/System/article07.shtml

 

[(Q)]

I think totally eliminating spiritualism from life can lead to a kind of apathy and disregard for the value of what really matters, like relationships and individual integrity.

There is less introspection and even less accountability.

But, you don't know that, you're a theist and have been brainwashed to think in that way.

And of course, religions see humanity as vile sinners while positive atheism sees humanity as compassionate and caring. I would say eliminating spiritualism will greatly increase the values of mankind, its relationships and integrity.

 

[S.A.M.]

Increase in knowledge, making rational decisions comes from critical thinking skills.

Does increase in knowledge always lead to critical thinking?

Is this a feeling you have?

More like an observation based on the self-involved relationships I see around me.
Also the resistance to settle for less even if it meant that others could benefit from it. More "I" than "we".

"Ghastly stories have surfaced how Egypt, Syria, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, and other Muslim states abuse and torture rendered men, inflicting more indignities on them than Muslim inmates have suffered at Guantanamo. Beatings, physical suspensions, electric shocks, and other cruel and degrading treatments have been reported. International human rights groups claim that in Uzbekistan two rendered prisoners were boiled to death."

http://www.counterpunch.org/khan06062005.html

"Muslim seminary students in Pakistan tortured a young Christian for five days and nights to force him to convert to Islam, according to a British human-rights monitor."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38509

And let's not forget the Muslim propaganda, which I'm sure is to follow but I'll paste it for you ahead of time:

"This act is totally contradictory to justice and it is unacceptable by all means. To force an accused or a prisoner to admit to something is not permitted in Islam, nor is it acceptable from a human point of view. This act is only accepted by people of no faith, oppressors and tyrants who want to convert people into slaves. All faiths condemn this act."

http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/politics/System/article07.shtml

No need for propaganda. But isn't education supposed to increase humanity? If there is no difference between autocratic and democratic regimes, are we missing something in the equation?

 

[S.A.M.]

But, you don't know that, you're a theist and have been brainwashed to think in that way.

And of course, religions see humanity as vile sinners while positive atheism sees humanity as compassionate and caring. I would say eliminating spiritualism will greatly increase the values of mankind, its relationships and integrity.

I do see the difference in thinking between not theistic, but spiritual and non-spiritual people.

Education is not everything; it does not teach a man to know himself.

As for the rest, it's pretty obvious how compassionate and caring humanity really is.

 

[(Q)]

Does increase in knowledge always lead to critical thinking?

Perhaps, but it's slightly more complex than that:

http://www.freeinquiry.com/critical-thinking.html

And I would highly recommend you take a course in critical thinking.

No need for propaganda.

But, that's your forte, it's what you use to support your arguments.

But isn't education supposed to increase humanity? If there is no difference between autocratic and democratic regimes, are we missing something in the equation?

Education increases knowledge, it's what you do with the knowledge that makes way for understanding.

 

[(Q)]

I do see the difference in thinking between not theistic, but spiritual and non-spiritual people.

Education is not everything; it does not teach a man to know himself.

How does spirituality do that?

As for the rest, it's pretty obvious how compassionate and caring humanity really is.

Under theist rule, it certainly isn't, but we as humans have not had a chance to show what we're really made of since we are all just vile sinners whose only purpose is to serve gods.

 

[S.A.M.]

Perhaps, but it's slightly more complex than that:

http://www.freeinquiry.com/critical-thinking.html

And I would highly recommend you take a course in critical thinking.

You seem obsessed with my delusions.
And I'm not too impressed with your judgement either.
You've shown yourself as much a victim of rationalisations as you accuse the theists of being.

But, that's your forte, it's what you use to support your arguments.

Well my opinions are just delusions, and you will insist on evidence, which you then condemn as propaganda.

It's lose-lose for me where you are concerned.

Education increases knowledge, it's what you do with the knowledge that makes way for understanding.

That is the point I was trying to make.

 

[S.A.M.]

(Q): From your link:

"A person who thinks critically can ask appropriate questions, gather relevant information, efficiently and creatively sort through this information, reason logically from this information, and come to reliable and trustworthy conclusions about the world that enable one to live and act successfully in it."

And this is you? Don't make me laugh.

 

[S.A.M.]

How does spirituality do that?

By focusing on some things not really included in education.

1. Significance of life: this is not a religious description but a personal one. All life is precious and valuable; it is irreplaceable and hence to be valued. Something along the lines of "no man is an island".

2. Values: these are beliefs (not necessarily religious), standards and ethics that are cherished.

3. Awareness: to be aware of the world beyond the self; transcendence.

4. Connecting: working towards a relationship with yourself, with people and with nature (animals, plants, the elements).

5. Self-knowledge: using all of the above to examine one's self; to get a sense of who and what we are.

These are all subjective and difficult to share, but they are essential to holistic health and sanity and define what separates us from other species, the extent of our consciousness.

Under theist rule, it certainly isn't, but we as humans have not had a chance to show what we're really made of since we are all just vile sinners whose only purpose is to serve gods.

That is a Christian concept. In Hinduism, there is dualism, i.e. all people are a part of God, so there is God in everyone. In Islam, we are a species with the desire and ability to study creation, with the gift of endless ever-changing creation presented to us. There is a system of social structure and ethics in both, but it is a guide, not an absolute.

You seem to think that religion manipulates people, when it is, in fact, the other way round.