Why the skeptics fear UFOs - AKA, The debunkers have something to hide

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Ivan Seeking

Registered Senior Member
Why the skeptics fear UFOs, AKA The debunkers have something to hide

My first serious review of the UFO literature was for a college English essay. Before this, I found the subject to be bizarre, cultish, and mostly nonsense. I had some interest, but any actual story was too far out for my worldview. Only after reading about 10 books for my essay writing - The Hynek UFO Report being the most significant of these – did the subject carry any real weight in my own thoughts. From my own experience, it is easy to ignore or ridicule the subject, if you have ignored the subject, but an informed opinion is another matter altogether.

Now, any two people may interpret the same information is different ways; this is an unavoidable consequence of being human. And to say that the subject of UFOs opens the floodgates for conflict is an understatement at least, but to say the subject is all hogwash is to demonstrate ignorance. On the other hand, if this comes as an informed opinion, there is only one explanation for this behavior that makes sense: Fear. This would explain quite a few paradoxical aspects of our beloved debunkers. Here are a few of these paradoxes.

If this subject is all nonsense, then why do so many people spend so much time and energy trying to disprove it. This is really strange since for one, the subject never can be disproved. This would violate basic logic. We can never prove that some elusive visitor is not here. Any good skeptic would know this so this begs the question: Why do they try so hard? Some might say they dedicate their time to help free the world of its nonsense notions? Nonsense! If they have half a clue about human nature they know this is not possible. Also, given that any good skeptic must know this, one must wonder why they don’t have something better to do? Of all the things that one might do with their time, why spend so much effort trying to show everyone else how silly they are – meanness, unfulfilled potential, failed dreams, boredom, dad or mom didn’t love them enough? Even if some reason like this exists, why attack the UFO crowd?

I have considered this question a bit, and it seems to me that the answer is fear. This is why the attacks are so misguided and personal. Note that the debunkers often try to debunk the messenger and not the message. This is one reason that I tend to stick with the study of government files as my focal point; this is the only source of UFO records that have some built in validation. But when faced even with intelligence reports that went to all of the highest levels of government including the White House, I have had debunkers ignore these official records as if they were from the National Enquirer. This leaves only one possible conclusion: the debunkers are rarely objective. This implies motive, or at least insincerity. What kind of motive? The preservation of their world view seems the only consistent explanation. What else could it be? What else would be so important that a person would donate so much time to a hopeless pursuit to disprove what they believe is nonsense, and which can never be disproved? Clearly our skeptics are quite uniquely bothered by this particular phenomenon. The reason is that deep down they realize just how important the subject might be.

Of course, as for our TV skeptics, it’s about the money.

Of course, we do still have to account for the insincere attackers: These are mostly people with personality disorders. They know that since UFOs are so elusive and controversial, the UFO buffs are easy targets. This allows them to be mean and lazy, which is usually all they really want.

To those who attack but have not studied the subject, I can understand your misguided malice. I once felt the same way about much this stuff.
 
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Your words flow like butter (the low fat kind)

I can't agree with you more. Your statements are both eloqant and thought out.
Yet I don't think you expressed the true fears:

1) the monster under the bed syndrome ( If you hide your eyes under the blanket ) the monster goes away.

2) the government knows whats best syndrome (these people dont even vote)

3) Look I'm normal syndrome ( like a chameolon will go with whatever the majority is saying as stated fact.)

4) The "I didn't do any research but know it's all bullcrap syndrome" Most prevelant form found)

You can lead a skunk to water but you can't make him stink!
 
Ivan

Most likely, my post on your other thread hit too close to home, and rather than using your pea brain to consider that you have been wasting the last 20 years of your life chasing rainbows, you instead start a thread attacking skeptics.

But instead of describing the skeptic, you successfully described the believer; in fact, you appear to be describing yourself, almost to a tee.

Perhaps this is your way of self-analysis, a way for you to take a good long hard look in the mirror, so to speak.

Kudos! I applaud your efforts. You’re well on the way to recovery.

And don’t feel too depressed about the time wasted – it’s always better late then never.

;)
 
incredibly weak old chap

this pathological debunkery is not restricted to ufology but to all notions that threaten to upset the prevailing paradigm. you are run of the mill, q. forever destinied to be a good little follower. kindly step aside and make way for ....progress!!

pathological skeptiscm

ps: watch your ass. my alien buds have scheduled you for an anal probe;)
 
ivan

kudos! I applaud you. a sense of focus and respectability is what we gain by your efforts
 
Missing the I=Intelligence

Originally posted by (Q)
using your pea brain
;) [/B]
Click to expand...

Q : If they had operations to enhance brain size 10 fold, you would still have plenty of room in Ivans pea!
 
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Q came all the way over to Physics Forums [where I posted same] to take some more shots at me. This one must have really bothered Q! :D
 
Ivan,

You say that the motive of the debunker's is fear, and later suggest that what they are afraid of is having their world view upset.

Let's stipulate for the sake of argument that this is true. What's the problem? Who actively wecomes having their world view upset? (Not changed, mind you, upset.)

During the recent fires here in Southern Ca. the city of San Diego was smothered in thick smoke some of the days, so thick it literally blocked out the sun: it was slightly lighter than night out and there was no trace of the sun glowing through the smoke despite the fact you knew it was daylight.

I found this intensely depressing and was kind of quietly panicing to think that in one day sunny southern ca. could actually be turned into this. Everything was closed. On the two or three days it was this bad, before 10 AM, I degenerated into escapism: I just laid down and went to sleep untill it was late enough for the darkness to be appropriate, then felt comfortable enough to get out of bed.

I found out that in one day something can happen that just blocks out the sun in this sunniest of places.

So, my question is: what is wrong with someone wanting to preserve their world outlook? Or with fearing a shock to it?

(I don't actually believe this assessment of the motive of skeptics applies across the board, but if it applies at all to any it is worth discussing.)
 
Q came all the way over to Physics Forums [where I posted same] to take some more shots at me. This one must have really bothered Q!

Ivan is lying. I have copied/pasted my post here in order to show how people like Ivan are not interested in debate but are merely interested in others blindly agreeing. He accuses me of taking shots at him, which is exactly the kind of deception my post below is referring.

One has to wonder what other deceptions Ivan has made in order to make his point.

Thanks, Ivan – for helping me show others your true motives.

The stalemate is obvious. I can't prove anything beyond the evidence immediately available

Here’s where your logic fails miserably – there is no stalemate. The so-called evidence in which believers tend to find compelling is little more than testimonial hyperbole, which is far from the evidence required to even form a hypothesis.

the debunker can never prove a negative.

Debunkers are not interested in proving negatives. Debunkers have already successfully proven that believers have nothing to base their assertions aside from their own over-active imaginations. Of course, the believer ignores their own lack of validity and credibility.

why do some many debunkers act so hostile; and why do they try so hard?

Most likely, they are sick and tired of believers demanding funding for their fallacious projects - trying to find ET. As well, believers tend to mislead and deceive others with their ridiculous claims, thus having a negative effect on the perception of the scientific community. In short, believers do more damage to science than any good that might come about from their claims.

The hostility is well grounded.

If ET is here I would sure like to know it. I can see why so many people think this really is true

Quite frankly, I am dumb-founded by the amount of people willing to believe anything they are told. Most have little or no formal education and can’t even begin to fathom the problems associated with interstellar travel, yet are perfectly willing to accept the possibility that ET walks the Earth. The amount of UFOlogy crap on the internet only serves to feed their delusions.

It would be laughable if it weren’t so sadly tragic.
Click to expand...
 
Ivan

You are a Mentor for the Skepticism and Debunking forum at PhysicsForums? :eek: :confused:

Something is seriously wrong with that.
 
Re: Why the skeptics fear UFOs, AKA The debunkers have something to hide

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
From my own experience, it is easy to ignore or ridicule the subject, if you have ignored the subject, but an informed opinion is another matter altogether.
Claiming that UFOs do not exist is silly. However, ridiculing researchers who claim to know what it is (without any proof) is fully acceptable :)

there is only one explanation for this behavior that makes sense: Fear.
Um... people debunk things for the same reason people research them. Why do we debunk claims of free energy, because we are 'afraid' of it? Nice try. "I for one would welcome our new ET overloads", but claims without logic or evidence are fairly silly and in the same realm as free energy.

We can never prove that some elusive visitor is not here. Any good skeptic would know this so this begs the question: Why do they try so hard?
Because we can easily prove that you don't have any evidence. You are arguing from a weak position if your only basis is "nah-na, you can't get me based on logic." I could just as easily say "everyone who sees a UFO is crazy", and you can't disprove me. That wouldn't stop you from trying though.

Some might say they dedicate their time to help free the world of its nonsense notions? Nonsense! If they have half a clue about human nature they know this is not possible.
Who cares about ridding the world of it. EVERY false idea still exists somewhere in the world... the point is to minimize it.

I have considered this question a bit, and it seems to me that the answer is fear. This is why the attacks are so misguided and personal.
This is also true of the UFO crowd. Remember a few months ago when I was agreeing with you, and you took it upon yourself to 'read between the lines' (where there was no message), and resorted to attacking me. This is not a matter of UFO debunkers, it's human nature to attack the opponent.

This is one reason that I tend to stick with the study of government files as my focal point; this is the only source of UFO records that have some built in validation.
Agreed, but you must agre that they are not gospel.

But when faced even with intelligence reports that went to all of the highest levels of government including the White House, I have had debunkers ignore these official records as if they were from the National Enquirer.
Granted, I haven't been paying attention to pseudo lately, but I haven't seen anything from the government that has said more the 'lights in the sky', 'we chased', 'they vanised', 'unidentified'. Great, that just proved that people don't know everything... but has not addressed what UFOs actually are.

Of course, we do still have to account for the insincere attackers: These are mostly people with personality disorders.
Personal attacks? I'm just imagining your response if Q said this :)
 
Personal attacks? I'm just imagining your response if Q said this

The post I copied above was from Physicsforums where Ivan is a Mentor. From this single post he has placed me ‘on notice.’ I’m not sure what he meant by that because he refuses to clarify, therefore I can only conclude he is abusing his power as a Mentor.

I’m assuming ‘on notice’ must be similar to ‘double-double probation.’ ;)
 
yah. i saw the post and cracked up at q's persistence.
yet......."notice"? was there one? lets not have any forum wars
 
Originally posted by spookz
incredibly weak old chap

this pathological debunkery is not restricted to ufology but to all notions that threaten to upset the prevailing paradigm. you are run of the mill, q. forever destinied to be a good little follower. kindly step aside and make way for ....progress!!

pathological skeptiscm

ps: watch your ass. my alien buds have scheduled you for an anal probe;)
Click to expand...

Have you considered that there is damn good reason that the "prevailing paradigm" is resistant to "crazy ideas"?

Have you seen Penn & Teller's "BULLSHIT!" regarding this topic?
 
Hehe, he IS always hostile.

"you obviously need to learn much more about the subject before forming an opinion"
"Instead, what we typically find are people who are willing to commit a great deal of time debunking something they know virtually nothing about."
" There are good skeptics and bad skeptics. In my experience, most are not very reliable. They are usually trying to win; not to discover the truth."

I find it funny that your thread about how debunkers resort to personality attacks, resorts to personality attacks.

My point is, your post is doing exactly that which you are complaining about... and simply distracts the issue.
 
Originally posted by wesmorris
Have you considered that there is damn good reason that the "prevailing paradigm" is resistant to "crazy ideas"?

Have you seen Penn & Teller's "BULLSHIT!" regarding this topic?
Click to expand...

no. do enlighten on the "damn good reason"

Episode 13:Environmental Hysteria:
Here Penn & Teller explore the truth behind fears about global warming, air quality, water quality, acid rain, species extinction, and take a look at Greenpeace's activities.

thoughts? you wanna take em on one by one? lemme have the truth. these fuckers have an issue with greenpeace?

what i note is all you guys simply buy into the media spin of issues that actually merit concern. legitimate issues are dismissed because you guys lack the abilty to discern the subtle differences. just because stuff is blown out of proportion and exaggerated to milk it for all its worth in no way lessens the kernel of truth that made it a frikkin problem in the first place!

how the hell is postulating an et origin for ufo's a "crazy idea"?
 
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You didn't answer my second question.

Oh, and I meant "damn good reasons". Pardon. You know, stability, confidence, momentum, blah blah. A lot of reasons regarding perception and masses and whatnot and more pertinent reasons like that the pardigm has generally been tested ad nauseum... peer reviewed to dust. Things that aren't part of it... aren't. They have to be viewed with great skepticism or blind stupidity will follow.

Further, paradigms are just kind of that way aren't they? It's not like there isn't plenty of fringe activity, it's just that for anything to be considered under the current paradigm it has to be presented in terms of the current paradigm such that it can be filtered through the minds of those that are not down with your assertions. Otherwise how can they get down with you?
 
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