why jesus jew and not christian?

R

robtex

Registered Senior Member
I was at work last week and my friend became upset when I told him I didn't think Jesus Christ was still alive. He said he had his beliefs and I had mine and I let it go. But three days later he came back up to me and said he was really (i was less tactful there than in here to be fair) irked by my comment last week. He asked me why I though Jesus was dead and I threw out this senerio to him.

I said, Jesus Christ's sacrifice (according to Christanity) for the future salvation of man's sins was a prophecy right? He said yes. I said, than why if Jesus, knew the plan ahead of time, was he a Jew and not a Christian? This really upset my friend so I found a way to change the subject and we let it go. I am not going to ask him again because it is going to just upset him and nobody will come out wiser from it.

So I wanted to know..on these boards...how do Christians explain this?
 
Well I'm not a christian but I'll give it a crack;

Perhaps is because back then there was no Christianity!! duh!!

Godless.
 
robtex:
I said, than why if Jesus, knew the plan ahead of time, was he a Jew and not a Christian?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
cristianity a new religion that revolves around the life of jesus
jesus is jew, because cristianity is based on jewish religion
now
what is cristianity?
jesus!
what is jesus
jew!
what is jew!
cristianity! Jesus!

cristians = jews=jesus

jew against jew thus cristians against jews

is jesus god?
answear=what is god?

Philosopher Philocrazy
 
True Christians are jews in spirit, They have accepted Jesus as The Messiah. Something that many jews did not accept and still do not accept. Christianity is in fact true judaism. Religious jews who believe they follow the will of the God of Abraham but have rejected His Word Immaueal have in fact fallen away from the true faith.


John 8
12Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
13 The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true."
14Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me."
19Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?"
Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."

All Praise The Ancient of Days
 
This "problem" is addressed many times in the New Testament:

Romans 2
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

I have made this argument many times that this text obviously says that Christians, being 'circumcised' in the Spirit, are therefore truly Jews.

The only other way to be declared a Jew is to live without EVER transgressing the Mosaic law.

Now of course, Jesus the Christ fulfilled both these requirements fully.
 
Jews are Christians, Christians are Jews. No, they are not, in either direction. I'm sorry if this fact conflicts with the views here that "everybody can be saved in Jesus", but it's 2004 and we have to come to terms with the multiplicity of religious faiths in this world, and to respect each other for their beliefs. Not to do so has been and continues to this day to be the cause of wars, strife and much much human suffering. The Crusades were nearly a thousand years ago, the Inquisition not far off 500. We have hopefully left such intolerance behind.
 
Silas; (The Crusades were nearly a thousand years ago, the Inquisition not far off 500. We have hopefully left such intolerance behind.)

In other words people wake up and smell the coffee. Jesus is dead, it's not comming back, your belief is moot, and irrational. Your doctrine is based on fary tale, ancient mythology, gone waco!. How gullible can you be?

Godless.
 
Adstar said:
True Christians are jews in spirit, They have accepted Jesus as The Messiah. Something that many jews did not accept and still do not accept. Christianity is in fact true judaism. Religious jews who believe they follow the will of the God of Abraham but have rejected His Word Immaueal have in fact fallen away from the true faith.


John 8
12Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
13 The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true."
14Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me."
19Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?"
Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."

All Praise The Ancient of Days
Click to expand...



Adstar,
Salaam....I wonder about this because if that is indeed true then why do you guys(christians) reject the old testement? for example the eating of pork in the old testement is strictly forbidden directly from God also the ten commandments(and their punishments) are very plainly laid out yet Christians say that all changed with Jesus(pbuh) coming. So how could you be Jews in Spirit when you dont follow Jews laws? :confused: remember Jesus also said:


Matthew 19:17 (NKJV) So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
 
I'll dig up links tomorrow, but if you look back through "Early Christian Writings" (ante-Nicene, &c.), you'll find a number of anti-Judaic writings from the foundling religion. Most of it is political, jockeying for imperial favor, and thus attempting to explain the difference between the Jews that already annoyed the Romans and the Jews that called themselves Christian. And yes, they exploited the passage from Romans included in §outh§tar's post.

From there, it just grew. Data transmission from generation to generation is inconsistent, to say the least. Were it not, we wouldn't have diverse sects within Christianity. By the time we get to modern assertions about Jesus being a Jew, the significance of the issue takes on a much different aspect.
 
surenderer said:
Adstar,
Salaam....I wonder about this because if that is indeed true then why do you guys(christians) reject the old testement? for example the eating of pork in the old testement is strictly forbidden directly from God also the ten commandments(and their punishments) are very plainly laid out yet Christians say that all changed with Jesus(pbuh) coming. So how could you be Jews in Spirit when you dont follow Jews laws? :confused: remember Jesus also said:


Matthew 19:17 (NKJV) So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Click to expand...

Serenderer i am amazed that you are asking me these questions again. You have asked these questions before remember and i have answered them.

All Praise The Ancient of Days
 
Adstar said:
Serenderer i am amazed that you are asking me these questions again. You have asked these questions before remember and i have answered them.

All Praise The Ancient of Days
Click to expand...


I did??What was the answer?? I dont believe though that you ever told me that Christians were Jews in spirit are then saying that Christians should follow Jews laws?
 
Adstar: Christianity is in fact true judaism.
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M*W: Adstar, as a devout Roman Catholic, we were taught this, but since I deconverted, I have conversed with many Jews and a couple of Rabbis about this. They adamantly deny this. They believe there is absolutely no connection between Christianity and Judaism. However, there is a strong connection between Christianity and Paganism.
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Adstar: Religious jews who believe they follow the will of the God of Abraham but have rejected His Word Immaueal have in fact fallen away from the true faith.
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M*W: Who is "Immaueal?" There is no one mentioned in the Old or NT by this name. This name was never used in connection with Jesus. In fact, if you are asserting that the Annunciation is a truthful fact, Mary and Joseph BOTH were told to name Mary's son "Immanuel," but they did NOT obey the angel. Can you explain this oversight? Is there any other reference in either the Old or NT that calls Jesus "Immanuel?" If you break this word down, it is thus, "manu" means "humankind," "el" means "god," and "im" is the Hebrew suffix meaning "plural." Therefore, the name Immanuel would be written in Hebrew as "Manu-El-Im." (The plural suffix "im" is taken from the first of the word and placed at the end to show the meaning as "more than one.") Therefore, "Manu-El-Im" means "humankind ARE gods[im]" or if the original Hebrew was written as "El-Manu-Im," it would translate as "Gods ARE human." Either way it's translated, the plural prefix of "im" in front of the word is grammatically attached to the end of the word as a suffix. Since there are no vowels in Hebrew, the word should be written like this "MMNL" or "MNLM." I don't speak Hebrew by a longshot, but this is what my Jewish friends who are learned in Hebrew told me. I believe it is stated somewhere in the bible that "Immanuel" means "God is with us." This is entirely incorrect because it is written in singular as in "one god." This cannot be right because "im" says the word is plural.
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Adstar: "Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, "I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."
*************
M*W: Please explain why this statement allegedly said by Jesus actually refers to Lucifer, which literally means "one who brings light to the world" or even possibly "the light of the world," or maybe even the "SUN GOD?"

I think it's strange that "Lucifer" means "light" or the ability to see clearly (as with wisdom), and "sun" is translated as "helios" or another word for "hell."

So, if "Immanuel" means "God is with us," why do Christians believe humanity is so vile?
 
"I said, than why if Jesus, knew the plan ahead of time, was he a Jew and not a Christian?"

Perhaps creating Christianity was not the plan, he was promoting a totally new understanding that was neither Judaism nor Christianity, using the Jewish vocabulary available so as not to alienate potential followers.
 
M*W I applaud you on your efforts to explain the literal language. Pretty much what I've stated long time ago on another thread if you recall, "humans are gods" then if you recall U can now see were this realization came from, from the term Immanuel, of which of course was all distorted by the telling of the tale. Jesus was crusified not for the sin's of man but for contradiction with Jewish laws, Jesus was basically saying we are gods, and that we should love one another, and that we are enlightened by the father. However if those people had taken literally Jesus teachings in this manner, it would have created havoc, upon Jewish laws, this was blaspheme to claim that we are gods, the rullers of the Jewish empire, under Rome would have much trouble if everyone when on thinking they were gods, this would not be allowed or tolerated, therefore he was crusified. Latters Paul makes up the lies and deciet that Jesus's was crusified for the sins of man.

However this all speculation on my part. Because we have no accounts if Jesus even existed, because most of the literature written about jesus, crusifiction, resurection fable was written 100's of years after the fact.

But just think what would happen today in a church if someone preached we are gods, that poor preacher, pastor, rabbi, would most defenetly get expellled from his flock, because this would deem the church powerless. This is what I think could have occured. Maybe this is why the name Emmanuel was never used for Jesus' name.

Godless.
 
Godless: M*W I applaud you on your efforts to explain the literal language. Pretty much what I've stated long time ago on another thread if you recall, "humans are gods" then if you recall U can now see were this realization came from, from the term Immanuel, of which of course was all distorted by the telling of the tale. Jesus was crusified not for the sin's of man but for contradiction with Jewish laws, Jesus was basically saying we are gods, and that we should love one another, and that we are enlightened by the father. However if those people had taken literally Jesus teachings in this manner, it would have created havoc, upon Jewish laws, this was blaspheme to claim that we are gods, the rullers of the Jewish empire, under Rome would have much trouble if everyone when on thinking they were gods, this would not be allowed or tolerated, therefore he was crusified. Latters Paul makes up the lies and deciet that Jesus's was crusified for the sins of man.

However this all speculation on my part. Because we have no accounts if Jesus even existed, because most of the literature written about jesus, crusifiction, resurection fable was written 100's of years after the fact.

But just think what would happen today in a church if someone preached we are gods, that poor preacher, pastor, rabbi, would most defenetly get expellled from his flock, because this would deem the church powerless. This is what I think could have occured. Maybe this is why the name Emmanuel was never used for Jesus' name.
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M*W: Thanks, Godless. I agree with you on all counts. I believe we are on the same page, but I've never thought of myself as an atheist! Strangely, though, I may need to rethink my perception of God. As I've said in many posts, I believe in a "Creator god," but that entity is not a person with a personality or somthing that can feel emotion or judge us. I see our creator god as a non-personal force of positive energy. Later I likened god to electricity. There's so many symbols used in the bible, that nothing in the bible today is anywhere near correct. Actually, the bible probably has been mistranslated from the very beginning and after + or - 5000 years from the writing of Genesis, none of it is of any validity today nor has been since the beginning.

I believe early man believed the sun to be god. They feared god. But to early man, god was hell, too. God was extremely hot and you couldn't look directly at this god or be blinded! I also believe that this "creator god" evolved through the process of the big bang, which I don't believe was an instantaneous explosion but rather a gradual change in the universe, and at some point, electricity was formed. From that point our universe as we know it started to evolve. That's just my assumption. I've never read this anywhere.

Like you, I believe this "electrical" (or rather atomic force) is what keeps humanity bonded together. The entire universe is made up of atoms. When we break it all down to atoms, we are no different than this computer I'm typing on or this chair I'm sitting in. The only difference is that we are animated. These lifeless things are inanimate objects.

Maybe human beings didn't "create" god per se, but they surely attached their perception to it. All things considered, I do believe science will fully explain god to us very soon. Therefore, I don't call myself an atheist, because I believe a great source of positive energy created us. The power that created us also dwells within us. When I pray, I don't pray to an old white-beared man in the sky (who surely would have struck me dead a long time ago!), I pray to the power that resides within me. Only I can conjur up the power I need to solve problems or overcome dilemmas. There is no one outside of my very own self who I can turn to when I need help. When the electricity leaves our body we are "inactive," but I don't like to use the word "dead," because I don't believe in death per se. This electrical force that enlivens us simply moves elsewhere, but it doesn't die. In fact, I have a hard time calling this power of positive energy "God," because it doesn't really have a proper name nor should it be capitalized because even though it is a noun, it's a "thing."

Godless.[/QUOTE]
 
Silas said:
Jews are Christians, Christians are Jews. No, they are not, in either direction. I'm sorry if this fact conflicts with the views here that "everybody can be saved in Jesus", but it's 2004 and we have to come to terms with the multiplicity of religious faiths in this world, and to respect each other for their beliefs. Not to do so has been and continues to this day to be the cause of wars, strife and much much human suffering. The Crusades were nearly a thousand years ago, the Inquisition not far off 500. We have hopefully left such intolerance behind.
Click to expand...
Godless said:
Silas;

In other words people wake up and smell the coffee. Jesus is dead, it's not comming back, your belief is moot, and irrational. Your doctrine is based on fary tale, ancient mythology, gone waco!. How gullible can you be?

Godless.
Click to expand...
Perhaps you need to read what I wrote again, specifically We have hopefully left such intolerance behind. I'm an atheist, and I don't agree with adstar and others on their interpretation of what Christianity ought to be, but I prefer to show an example by not denigrating them or their fundamental belief. I don't believe that Jews are failed Christians (as a minute's chat with just about any Jew will convince you) but I wouldn't tread all over adstar's undoubtedly sincerely held belief in the Living Christ. So kindly don't re-interpret what I've said.

Medicine Woman:
This cannot be right because "im" says the word is plural
Click to expand...
The Im of Immanuel? No. The "im" of elohim? (i.e. Gods) Yes - but it's always understood to be singular even though it's a plural form. It's best to think of it as a Hebrew idiom. For example, in Italian one thousand is "mille" and two thousand (or as we might say, two thousands) is "due mila". For those words and those words only the usual singular and plural endings (e for fem. plural and a for fem. singular) are reversed. Nobody even things of Elohim as a plural word, it simply means "God". (Apologies to any Jews offended by my writing of the words for His name, by the way.)

Incidentally, it may be that the child called Immanuel and born of "a virgin" (mistranslated from the Hebrew, by the way) made by Isaiah was a reference to his own child. At any rate, the idea that Isaiah, as a prophet, was referring to someone who wouldn't be born for another 7 - 8 centuries is palpable nonsense.

spidergoat
"I said, than why if Jesus, knew the plan ahead of time, was he a Jew and not a Christian?"

Perhaps creating Christianity was not the plan, he was promoting a totally new understanding that was neither Judaism nor Christianity, using the Jewish vocabulary available so as not to alienate potential followers.
Click to expand...
Jesus didn't create Christianity, and there's no reason to suppose that the formation of a wholly new religion was ever part of his purpose. He was a Jew and all his disciples were Jews and his mentions of "scripture" are specifically the Jewish scriptures. In fact it was the Jewish vocabulary which would have potentially alienated most of the Gentiles who were being chased as converts by Paul, which is why Paul made a point of downgrading the observance of Jewish Law, a point which caused a schism in the early Christian movement.
 
Perhaps you need to read what I wrote again, specifically We have hopefully left such intolerance behind. I'm an atheist, and I don't agree with adstar and others on their interpretation of what Christianity ought to be, but I prefer to show an example by not denigrating them or their fundamental belief.
Click to expand...

Well I see you are quite new here! My bad for grabing a sentence of your post and using it out of context. me apolegies!!. But stick around, and you will notice that intorlerance with some thiest here is far, from comming. Welcome to sci-forums Silas, and again excuse my (militant atheist ways), I used to not be like this, but on a daily basis dealing with ignorance, assumptions, (there's a nut around here who thinks speaks to angels) and arrogance of some of these theist well it just gets the better of you. BTW, religious intolerance in real life is also far from comming, (gay bashing, religiou right, political influence, gay marriage, abortion issues, anti-porn, victimless crimes such as drugs issues & prostitution are all based on religious morals) being forced to us by religious influence in supposedly a secular government.

Godless.
 
Silas: "Medicine Woman:The Im of Immanuel? No. The "im" of elohim? (i.e. Gods) Yes - but it's always understood to be singular even though it's a plural form. It's best to think of it as a Hebrew idiom."
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M*W: A scholarly priest who happens to also be a bioscientist and is multilingual, explained the "im" rule to me. I wish I could remember the book I read that explained how "im" changed from suffix to prefix. It's been a while.
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Silas: Incidentally, it may be that the child called Immanuel and born of "a virgin" (mistranslated from the Hebrew, by the way) made by Isaiah was a reference to his own child. At any rate, the idea that Isaiah, as a prophet, was referring to someone who wouldn't be born for another 7 - 8 centuries is palpable nonsense.
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M*W: Totally!
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Silas: Jesus didn't create Christianity, and there's no reason to suppose that the formation of a wholly new religion was ever part of his purpose. He was a Jew and all his disciples were Jews and his mentions of "scripture" are specifically the Jewish scriptures. In fact it was the Jewish vocabulary which would have potentially alienated most of the Gentiles who were being chased as converts by Paul, which is why Paul made a point of downgrading the observance of Jewish Law, a point which caused a schism in the early Christian movement.
*************
M*W: Like I've always said, Christianity wasn't supposed to even exist! That's why I call it the Antichrist.
 
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