Why is Holocaust denial illegal?
- Thread starter BenTheMan
- Start date
Did you think Uruguay was responsible for the holocaust? You are confused.
Yes I clearly think that Uruguay was responsible for the Holocaust.
What is your response to people who blame America for the war in Iraq (assuming you are a liberal person)---I would be willing to bet you say "No, this is Bush's war" or some such variant.
The Holocaust was the policy of a regime that was in power at the time, a regime (by the way) that came from Austria.
I think he's gone to beddy-byes but I do feel qualified to speak for him on this point.
He'd blame America.
He'd blame America.
Hmmm. Well they didn't come to power overnight, now, did they? Certainly by the time of the Enabling Act it was too late but they could conceivably have been stopped at any time up to this point. Alas, far too many people saw Hitler as a useful tool, or as someone they could work with. As for the masses, well, they did benefit from reliable train timetables and protection from the Red scourge. I think they have to be charged with at least partial culpability, yes?
Certainly the government requires the consent of the governed. I will admit that I don't know the entire socio-political situation in pre-war Germany, but as far as I understand it, Hitler's national socialist party offered a new vision for Germany. A vision that restored German superiority after WWI. It's like the Paestinians---they had a choice between a corrupt government and a terrorist regime. (This is another post!)
I don't know if I agree that the current Germany should shoulder the burden for Hitler, just like I don't agree that I should be held reponsible for slaves that I never owned (i.e. reparitions) or segregation that I never took part in (i.e. affirmative action). Likewise, I don't agree that America should be held responsible for these things either.
But it probably just boils down to a difference of opinions.
The current government of Germany doesn't carry the burden. It merely admits that as a nation Germany did wrong. Responsibility does not disappear magically with a regime change. There is always the past. Hitler came to power with support. Hitler did not commit genocide singlehandedly.
Is a US soldier responsible for atrocities ordered by its government. Yes.
The US should try admitting its wrongs. That would be refreshing.
Is a US soldier responsible for atrocities ordered by its government. Yes.
The US should try admitting its wrongs. That would be refreshing.
I think all nations should be in a revolving confessional, each confessing a bad move, then on to the next nation, so the first nation to run out of bad moves is the best nation.
What do you think it will change. In Germany it made people think about their role in WW2. People actually thought they were victims of the allied forces. Similarly americans think they bring freedom and democracy to the world.
The holocaust denial is illegal because the history is fluid and changing depending on what we believe happened in the past.
For example, if all people now started to believe that Jesus was a chinese person, then in their psyche Jesus indeed was chinese and they will act and think according to that "fact".
For the ones in power now (groups, organisations, lobbies, etc) it is convenient and politically profitable that the holocaust indeed took place.
If that opinion changes, then their power would also diminish.
Hence it is important for them to force the population to believe what they wish, including their version of history.
For example, if all people now started to believe that Jesus was a chinese person, then in their psyche Jesus indeed was chinese and they will act and think according to that "fact".
For the ones in power now (groups, organisations, lobbies, etc) it is convenient and politically profitable that the holocaust indeed took place.
If that opinion changes, then their power would also diminish.
Hence it is important for them to force the population to believe what they wish, including their version of history.
Hi meta,
i hope all is going well.
interesting, pls elbaorate if you will.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks
Zak
He won't do that. They authorities will just delete his posts and play game in attempts to silence him(he' crazy).
Oni, don't make me ask you to...
Zak, I haven't taken a lot of interest in the holocaust denial thing one way or the other, but I think that the laws are just as likely to be used to stop someone who wants to revise the official story or show that there is fakery involved. Frankly, I don't trust the side that shuts the other side up, not now, not ever, not even under the influence of drugs. I also have good personal reasons not to trust the people who told me the story.
Why should I believe the Holocaust story? I can read as many historical accounts as I can find and try to look for consistencies or inconsistencies, which is better than taking the word of people and agencies who I know have lied about other things. Even then, my belief that a Holocaust took place is not quite an informed opinion. Myself, I don't need to believe in the Holocaust to believe that anti-semetism is likely to be wrong and a bad thing, and some people would think that I have to be anti-semetic if I don't believe in it. They place themselves at risk of making the term meaningless if they accuse me of this bad thing if I don't know for sure about the Holocaust and I don't think that Israel should be occupying Palestine.
Something like these "holocaust denial" laws can be convenient back doors to use to deny me my say or even to lock me up.
Zak, I haven't taken a lot of interest in the holocaust denial thing one way or the other, but I think that the laws are just as likely to be used to stop someone who wants to revise the official story or show that there is fakery involved. Frankly, I don't trust the side that shuts the other side up, not now, not ever, not even under the influence of drugs. I also have good personal reasons not to trust the people who told me the story.
Why should I believe the Holocaust story? I can read as many historical accounts as I can find and try to look for consistencies or inconsistencies, which is better than taking the word of people and agencies who I know have lied about other things. Even then, my belief that a Holocaust took place is not quite an informed opinion. Myself, I don't need to believe in the Holocaust to believe that anti-semetism is likely to be wrong and a bad thing, and some people would think that I have to be anti-semetic if I don't believe in it. They place themselves at risk of making the term meaningless if they accuse me of this bad thing if I don't know for sure about the Holocaust and I don't think that Israel should be occupying Palestine.
Something like these "holocaust denial" laws can be convenient back doors to use to deny me my say or even to lock me up.
Bells
Staff member
Contrary to what you may believe Meta, not everything is about you or "the man's" attempt to shut you up or lock you up.
What is your say on the Holocaust? Do you deny it ever occured?
You cannot make the denial of the Holocaust illegal, simply because you cannot legislate people's beliefs. What you can and should legislate against is the use of said beliefs to attempt to cause harm to others (racial attacks on Jews for example), be it physical or emotional.
By attempting to legislate against the denial of something like the Holocaust, you will virtually do more harm then good. What happens then is that the denialists go underground and become some kind of movement, festering in what they deem to be the rejection of society as a whole. Hatred builds and you then have the risk of violence against those they blame for the law, in this case, it can very well be the Jews.
By making it illegal, you basically run the risk of allowing the hatred to breed so that it all comes full circle again and the hatred and the attacks occur again. One's shame at one's history should not lead to legislation of such a kind. Doing so only breeds even more distrust, hatred and dissent.
Is that a fact?
I can neither confirm nor deny that it occured. Intellectual honesty does not allow me to take something like that on faith. In other matters, intellectual honesty compels me to tell people what I know to be true, or to be very likely to be true. You should try some of that some time.
I've already had a glimpse of your belief system, Bells. You believe that the mere expression of certain beliefs constitutes an attempt to harm others. You also attempt to implement this belief. This is why I do not like you or trust you.
No shit? You're not just saying that?
Bells
Staff member
Yes it is. You are self absorbed and obsessed that others are out to get you.
So you cannot 'confirm or deny' that the holocaust occured? Nice little bit of fence sitting there.
So the photos, the stories to come out of the concentration camps from both Jews and Germans (who put them there) cannot 'confim nor deny' it for you? Interesting.
How or why do you know that feelings of anti-semeticism is bad? Where do you think it all stems from? The possible false holocaust (you know since you can't even "confirm nor deny" that it occured)? I know that the holocaust occured. Do you know why? I have seen evidence that it did occur. I made up my own mind. I looked at the evidence, listended to the stories of those who were there and made up my own mind. You should try that sometime.
I am shattered. Really.
I have seen with my own eyes, what damage and harm some denialists can do. Is it illegal to deny something's existence? No it is not. But when the use of said denial facilitates the harm of others, then it becomes wrong.
But of course, you cannot bring yourself to recognise that can you? Best be careful, "they" might be watching.
