Philosopher,
Thanks for continuing. Your comments are really very useful.
I said you are offending people because you are talking down to them like children.
Perhaps, to some extent. My approach now and for some time has been deliberately provocative since I have noticed during my 3.5 years here that such an approach generates the strongest competitive arguments and debate. Look at your own response, you became frustrated and yet you felt driven to continue to argue your case against my perspective. I suspect it is all about adrenalin. If there are holes in my arguments and theists can find them then I know they thoroughly enjoy attempting to destroy me. The end result is that I can refine and improve my arguments accordingly. Without a challenge and some controversy the debates would become stale and boring.
I just think that you are going about trying to convince others the wrong way.
I will agree, but that isn’t really my agenda. My primary reason for being here is to learn and to develop my own arguments. If others become convinced and change their minds because of things I say then that is a pleasant bonus, and I know of two members who have PM’d me to tell me just that. But that isn’t my objective; I am not an ‘atheist evangelist’. I believe that is a superb oxymoron BTW.
I was a practicing Christian some 30 years ago for several years when I chose an atheist style path and I have been questioning what I believe and the basis for my beliefs ever since, but it has been these past 4 years and especially at sciforums where I have been able to make more progress than in any other time in the past 30 years.
After people first feel offended they usually stop listening and start shouting insults back.
You’d think so wouldn’t you but that isn’t what happens in practice. Yes there are some bonehead theists here who can’t string a logical sentence together, but then there are some atheists here with equal problems. Their comments are really irrelevant. But there are and have been some theists who can see past the fake insults and who do genuinely attack the argument, and who do make me think harder. It is those moments and thoughts that I seek and where I find the real value of sciforums.
I'm playing devils advocate in a sense because I think theists are misrepresented on this forum. There aren't many of them here, and it goes without mentioning the ones that are here.
There have been times when theists outnumbered the atheists, and several polls of a few months ago showed an almost exact number of theists to atheists. At the moment I am not sure of the mix. The perception is that atheists are at least the most vociferous at the moment and I have a very healthy respect for the courage of the theists who jump in amongst that bedlam.
It should be just accepted that we don't know why we are here and leave it at that. No need for speculation. Let science do the work.
And this is where we have to disagree somewhat. I believe human life is too short to simply wait for answers to arrive, and I believe we should make decisions now based on what we know and build a world and a life for ourselves based on that knowledge, and not on what we don’t know. Religions are based on things that are not known and I strongly suspect are totally false. I also strongly believe that that approach is dangerous, defeatist and fatalistic and what is worse is that it severely distracts far too many people from focusing on finding real solutions to life’s problems.
As for science: I am a scientist and a technologist since I manage an R & D department for a major computer maker. I have long term plans and an agenda where I foresee religion as being a significant obstacle for me in the future. I have no intention on taking a complacent approach and hope that things improve when that might not occur. My general approach to life is to be proactive.
I'd rather talk to someone face to face. It’s hard to convey an accurate message in a few sentences with our feeble language.
Yes I understand.
But really, is your view accurate? Until we know the exact reason for why we are here, we don't know.
So here I need to clean up some confusion between us.
You are right in that we don’t know if there is a god or not. It is that total lack of knowledge that makes the theist ideas imaginative fantasy. But that observation is not the same as stating that gods do not exist, which is what I think you think it means.
The statement concerning the concept of gods being fantasy is true whether gods exist or not. It is because no one can know that gods exist or not that makes the theist claims fantasy. If god(s) actually exist the theist concept will still be a fantasy since their concept is not based on knowledge of gods but on their human imagination.
From Webster again – fantasy: a creation of the imaginative faculty whether expressed or merely conceived.
Note that if god(s) exist and actually match the theists fantasy for them then that would be no more than a "miraculous" cooincidence.
You would have to understand the entire nature of the universe before you could establish your statement as true. Think carefully about your statement. It is not simply that we don’t know that gods exist or not but that we also don’t know whether they could exist or not, or whether there is any possibility that gods can exist.
So lets stop saying there isn't.
Please note again that I have never said in this entire debate that gods do not exist.
This is the same issue as above. We do not know that there might be gods. Your statement is still premature.
Why do you just dismiss that idea that there may be a god or higher power?
I hope at this point that you have a better understanding of why I am not dismissing any such thing.
Some people believe in a religion, but don't believe in the specific details in it. They jsut think there is a god so they chose the best religion for them. Cause they believe there is a chance there could be a god so they believe. They're not wrong, nor are they right.
So I am not sure about your last statement. I think the two clauses are mutually exclusive.
It’s now 1:27am and time for bed.
Take care and I hope you find my comments helpful. They are not intended to be combative.
Cris
