Why I would never live in the USA!

[Balder1]

I've held back on responding to this because of the sheer volume of your posts, Tiassa. Didn't take my advice after all, eh?

But neither the Jews nor Muslims have claimed that their civil rights are violated if they're not allowed to vote on whom to ostracize next. Just a practical observation; the Christians keep bringing it to the ballot box.

They do in the Middle East. Here they are a minority - maybe you just aren't looking carefully enough. I'm sure that many Muslims would love to make those things illegal. But lets keep the debate over which religion is worse to some other thread. I brought it up, I know.

There is little here that I can say: I understand (no, because I didn't go through it), I can imagine ( ), &c.

Ok, I didn't actually get sexually abused. I thought it would have more impact if I said that, and saying it did give me a few chuckles.

I noticed you conveniently bypass my whole point about homosexual pedophiles, and I don't see why. They account for one-third of the child molestation cases. This makes them seem like a pretty large problem for the US. I reserve my right to judge people based on their actions. To me, that is one of the rights of the First Amendment. You contradict yourself by saying you defend the First Amendment, and then decrying the Christians use of their free speech. You make a huge deal about the laws against encouraging homosexuality, when all it would really be doing is stopping homosexuality recruitment. It'd be a bad thing, but not that bad. The molestation of boys is a bigger problem than that.

Hell, that law would help shut down the North American Man and Boy Love Association(NAMBLA). Personally, I'd rather that group didn't recruit around me. I wouldn't let my kid around it - and you might say I'm sheltering, but its easy to coerce a kid.

So cut the homosexuality argument out. At most, they are 4% of the population, with 1-2% more likely. They aren't significant enough, and really I should have the right to judge someone based on their actions , and homosexual actions are actions. It is not the same as skin color.

You asked for an example of injustice. I provided you an example in a Seventh-Day Adventist pastor who, for whatever reasons, participated in genocide. I provided the example of a preacher who ... well ... Fred Phelps speaks well for himself.

Are we debating all religions or just Christianity? Jonestown was terrible too. Still, I think the War on Drugs is worse. America's decadence and laziness is probably worse, too.

What's really funny, though, is the number of non-Catholics who wonder where the hell I get the idea that "once you accept, you're in".

Not sure what you are saying. They get that idea from John 3:16, though.

Comfort is a necessity. Non-suffering is a necessity. Why in the world would health be excessive? Because it doesn't add up on a ledger sheet? (The joys of Capitalism ....) I don't get it.

No, the person who seeks such a goal is seeking something extravagant and excessive, because the benefits of succeeding(which motivate him, whether he knows it or not) are excessive, in terms of fame, recognition, and wealth, even. This is getting into a different argument.

Um ... yeah. Microsoft invented the personal computer ...

No, Gates made computers an easy, friendly, and affordable household item. It's not that hard to understand, is it?

Also, I don't understand how you connect greed for riches in heaven(a stupid argument, as you know as well as I that few people worry about their riches in heaven)to greed for items in the world. It just doesn't connect like that. Greed is human, not religious.

Atheism lacks a moral compass. Do you think Stalin would have committed the crimes he did if he was a devout Christian? Neither do I. Lenin? Hitler? As Nietzsche wrote(I think) it leads to existential nihilism. The belief that nothing matters, that we are merely animals with no purpose or meaning. We aren't, but its easy to think that. Killing doesn't really matter, ect.

You're saying that a religion that believes in humility, selflessness, love, and compassion is the cause of our problems in the US.

Btw, could you show me some evil passages in the New Testament? Perhaps show a link or something?

 

[Tiassa]

"Why I would never live in the Middle East"?

They do in the Middle East. Here they are a minority - maybe you just aren't looking carefully enough. I'm sure that many Muslims would love to make those things illegal. But lets keep the debate over which religion is worse to some other thread. I brought it up, I know.

It's just that ... well ... that's why I would never live in the Middle East. Then again, I'd live in Ireland, so there's a lesson for me.

I reserve my right to judge people based on their actions

Then judge a person by their actions, not by a label.

You contradict yourself by saying you defend the First Amendment, and then decrying the Christians use of their free speech.

How so? I may have missed something in my principles, but I don't think so. Be so kind as to point it out?

You make a huge deal about the laws against encouraging homosexuality, when all it would really be doing is stopping homosexuality recruitment.

Ri-ight. Inserting fundamental religion into medical schools against demonstrative science is a great idea. Forcing high school counselors to tell homosexual students that they are immoral and wrong is a great idea. Banning books that fail to condemn homosexuality is a great idea.

I wouldn't let my kid around it - and you might say I'm sheltering, but its easy to coerce a kid.

The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Due to prior abuses of the law by law enforcement pertaining to other issues, it has become the condition that belonging to an organization, in and of itself, does not necessarily justify investigation. This largely has been applied to the Drug War and to leftist movements in the US, but unfortunately covers NAMBLA, which seeks to function (ha!) as a lobby of some sort.

Now, here's a tricky part to consider with NAMBLA. Insofar as they advocate something illegal (man/boy sexuality) and furthermore something which is harmful to the minor (in theory, though I recognize this theory as correct), there's not much different between them and Al Qaeda, who advocate something illegal and harmful; it's a matter of degrees.

However, what happens if I throw this issue into the mix: What if I petition the government to lower the female age of consent to ten years old, and furthermore to allow me to win her consent with gifts--essentially child prostitution?

Horrifying, wouldn't you say? But I would merely be advocating a return to Massachusetts standards railed against by Lysander Spooner (in a pro-alcohol argument, of all things) in 1875.

Now, as to the disproportionate abuse numbers: It is a well-established fact that the more you demonize a group, the more you alienate them, the more dangerous their community becomes to themselves and others. Drugs, politics, religion, sexuality--the examples are there. Much of the United States' sexual crime would be eliminated if people simply dealt with these issues more openly.

Nonetheless, stop judging a people based on the actions of individuals. If you're willing to explore the reasons behind any child molestation, homosexual or otherwise, I think you'll find some fascinatingly delicate and dubious psychology at play.

Child abuse is largely symptomatic, so if you're going to wave the banner, be prepared to deal with its realities. Just like the drug users, the farther out of the mainstream gays are pushed, the more dangerous they become to themselves and others. Heck, watch our ethnic minorities; when they're alienated, there's chaos.

They aren't significant enough, and really I should have the right to judge someone based on their actions , and homosexual actions are actions.

I reiterate that you ought to judge a person based on their actions, and not on the actions of others.

You know, in Florida, they would rather girls be raised by convicted murderers and accused child molesters than raised by lesbians.

Are we debating all religions or just Christianity? Jonestown was terrible too. Still, I think the War on Drugs is worse. America's decadence and laziness is probably worse, too.

I'm not sure where this comes from. I offered you two Christian preachers and you're talking about Jonestown?

Not sure what you are saying. They get that idea from John 3:16, though.

It's actually a long-useless aside. We used to have Christian advocates around here that reject the "once you accept, you're in" idea.

No, the person who seeks such a goal is seeking something extravagant and excessive, because the benefits of succeeding(which motivate him, whether he knows it or not) are excessive, in terms of fame, recognition, and wealth, even. This is getting into a different argument.

If you say so ... :bugeye:

No, Gates made computers an easy, friendly, and affordable household item. It's not that hard to understand, is it?

Consider the Geo Metro. With an automatic, it's really easy to drive. Compared to a Yugo, it's very friendly. Next to a Jaguar, it's affordable.

But it's still a Geo Metro. Popular, affordable, adequate.

No, it's not that hard to understand. But it doesn't change the fact that it's second-rate software.

Greed is human, not religious.

True. It takes a human to elevate greed to a religion. But it doesn't change the fact that the equation still doesn't work.

Do you think Stalin would have committed the crimes he did if he was a devout Christian?

History is full of "devout" Christians committing atrocities. It might have been to a lesser degree, but hey ....

Besides, when did Stalin carry out his deeds in "the name of Atheism"?

And yes, it does lead to existential nihilism, that's why I'm not an atheist.

We aren't, but its easy to think that

That's a faith statement if I've ever seen one.

Killing doesn't really matter, ect.

What does that have to do with anything?

The US is in the middle of a religious war--God is on our side, remember? We're not in the middle of an atheistic war.

And, furthermore, I tend to think that murder is bad for the species; the only other species that murder tend to do so only when resources or circumstances are desperate.

You're saying that a religion that believes in humility, selflessness, love, and compassion is the cause of our problems in the US.

Yep. Tell me what you want about the Bible or its "religions". I generally judge people on their actions.

Unlike you, however, I'm not relying solely on the transference of one person's actions to another's. There are some doctrinal flaws in the relationship of Christianity to its texts. I've spent hours here debating with Christians who think their religion is about crushing the enemies of God. You say tomato, they say tomahto. Heck, in my more shining moments, I try to appeal to that humble, selfless, loving, and compassionate flock, and ne'er is there an answer to be had.

How long shall I wander with my lantern held high?

Btw, could you show me some evil passages in the New Testament? Perhaps show a link or something?

I'll get to them sometime soon.

But the bit in 1 Timothy, I think, about women, is real impressive. The Pauline evangelism in general has some difficulties. I'm just too lazy to care right now, to be honest. But I'll get to them.

Do remember, however, that when Christians go on their warpath, they use the whole Bible. Let's deal with reality here, while we're at it.

Remember also that there is a difference between the "theory" of Christianity and the Christianity composed by Christians.

And think about it: Do considerations of your immortal soul affect your decisions?

Apparently, for 3/4 of Americans, the answer is, to various degrees, yes.

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[heflores]

Tiassa,
I can't believe you are an imperfect creature...a man.....and all this time I though you are a woman. You were just so damn perfect, I couldn't assume otherwise. I'm sorry if I ever offended you by using the wrong label.

 

[Tiassa]

Sorry to let you down

Hope my imperfections didn't burst your bubble

I can only keep it up for so long before slipping back into a more primal, considerably imperfect self. Just ask the poor war dogs who seem so confused by my incendiary rhetoric.

And no, it's not particularly offensive. I've been told I'm gay since I was seven, and I've generally come to simply smile at such confusions unless they're all people have to go on. (Y'ever run into Brad Rules back before his "personal evolution"? Or after, by some standards?) In the long run, I do wonder about cultural assumptions; just like culturalism is the going theory for, say, why black people in the US are more afraid of black faces than they are white, I also wonder about the fact that many people guess my gender by associating the phoenetic of the name with cultural indicators and apply that to the confusion that seems to come when the culture tends to think that a man shouldn't be (willing to/able to) write such sentiments. And that tends to go both ways, to the people I manage to dazzle, and to the hoardes I've confused and enraged.

So as long as you've not written any love letters that would embarrass your conscience, I can only say that I'm sorry to disappoint you, happy to have confused you, or any other appropriate sympathy that fits here. (If you've written the love letters, it's your own issue to deal with for dignity's sake.)



What finally tipped you, though? The bit about prostituting a ten year-old girl? (It's hard to stick a winking smilie in here, but do know I'm smiling throughout ....)

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[heflores]

Re: Sorry to let you down

Originally posted by tiassa
What finally tipped you, though? The bit about prostituting a ten year-old girl? (It's hard to stick a winking smilie in here, but do know I'm smiling throughout ....)

thanx,
Tiassa

It was a 2 x 4 wooden bar by one poster who called me an idiot when I referred to you in one post as she. My world was shattered. I was so much in love with the idea of you being so smart and a woman, I even told a poster before that I hope my daughter grows to be like you.....I'm such an idiot. I'm glad you have a good sense of humor to smile about my horrible confusion.

later.

 

[Tiassa]

Humor works best

And it doesn't mean I'm not deeply honored in my own way.

(Indeed, I am, and I look over at my own sleeping daughter adrift in tendrils of dream and the Beach Boys .... )

thanx,
Tiassa