C'mon now, you know that most of our presidents were/are fake christians anyway. Most of the christian denominations strived here in the US due to the 1st Amendment. It's all capitalism and the church has become a business. New churches are formed to make tax-free income and believe me, they make mad cash! Atheism and agnosticism are both concepts and not a religion so therefore they have no church or congregation. Christians look down upon unbelievers because they do not surrender their money to other well-to-do individuals in the name of God. I don't know if there is a term for it but it's like the racism of religion. Take for example the George Bush Sr. interview where he doesn't consider atheists as citizens or patriots.
Why I would never live in the USA!
- Thread starter blankc
- Start date
Various
Balder1
It would be more accurate to say that "religious ideology" in the US is the problem, but that still comes back to an examination of the Judeo-Christian experience of this country.
Puritan strains from the 17th century still muck up ethical and moral considerations. Think about these overt examples:
- The ten-year campaign by the Oregon Citizens' Alliance against homosexuals which saw multiple state-level attempts to officially ostracize and demonize homosexuality, and included a desperate attempt to amend the Oregon Constitution to explicitly acknowledge God.
- Equality is often defined as, "We can all be equal when you agree with my Christian morals." In other words, in the name of Free Religion, Christians often ask others to forsake Free Speech. I'm sorry, but Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Wiccans, neo-pagans--these aren't the folks protesting books in schools; these aren't the folks whose religion has enjoyed a long presumption of advantage in american society; these aren't the folks who want to ban records--in the US, those people are Christians. Many Christian lamentations of discrimination are merely the equalizing of the social process.
- Especially in Christianity, religious considerations take precedence over all else, including common sense. Many Christians object to schools addressing issues that happen to coincide with the individual Christian's sublimated obsession (e.g. sex education).
- You know, I didn't hear the atheists, Muslims, Wiccans, &c, &c calling for the US to spend $40 million prosecuting a blowjob.
If you read through the records of religion in American history, Christianity comes off as a particularly psychotic, violent, and bizarre creature. From the time of the Puritans, when women were hauled from town to town in carts half-naked in the snow to be publicly whipped on up to the present when the remnants of Puritanism still cause Christians to wring their hands over gays, or compel conservatives to trash-talk single mothers as irresponsible while for ages failing to address the responsibility of the fathers, it's all the same Christ on a dog-and-pony show.
Think of televangelism. It's a multi-billion dollar industry. It's known to be crooked. But people keep sending their money. And keep sending. And keep sending. And many of them believe in odd causes because of their favorite televangelists. I get no less than three religious stations by airwave on my television up here, all Christian, and all bent on worrying over the dangers of lesbianism and rock and roll and how that's leading us down the narrow path to war. I don't know ... it was only ten minutes the last time I stopped on one of those stations, but it might have run together nonetheless.
You noted scientific research. 'Nuff said there because I could go on for hours.
Honestly, I wonder how it is that you didn't notice? Yes, innocent people are busted and harassed regularly. At least one of them has died in custody. Like I said, I'll start another topic, but people have been raising these issues all over the more political fora.
It's easiest to say that they choose it because it is easier than actually learning their own moral compass. And yes they do murder and steal and rape. They're human beings. Moral compass? Perhaps in the ideal, but in the United States, identity is a political value.
I've never really admitted to myself how deeply I think religion and especially Christianity runs in the US. I've posted about it, but I can't actually recall ever sitting down with myself and saying, "Now, how scary does it get?"
Think about it this way: Three quarters, according to survey, of Americans believe in Hell and the Devil. That's three quarters of them dwelling considerably on their own soul and what they want for it. It's a form of greed. And that in and of itself is one of the most damaging aspects I can think of: cultural paradigm-level sanctified greed.
Three quarters? That's hardly definitive, but it does bring some definition to the image. But that's a hell of a lot of people wasting a hell of a lot of time thinking about their own poor lamentable souls.
:m:
Re: Bush the father on atheists
Isn't this "I support the separation of church and state" George HW Bush who signed Public Law 102-14, which stated that the US was founded upon the Seven Universal Laws of Noah and further asserted that these laws are the foundation of all society?
- A Christian forum discussion regarding PL 102-14. Note: Anti-Semites will probably like this long post, but I was looking for the text of 102-14, and this was one of the first places I found it. The post itself is titled, "Talumdists Pass Law to Kill Christians", so I make no claims for either the website itself nor the editorial commentary of the rest of the post.
- Noahide Concision (Every discussion of Noahide laws I find quite obviously addresses Judaism; I think this one is a bit lighter than the last).
anyway ...
:m:,
Tiassa
Edit: Fix hyperlink
Balder1
Christianity plays a huge role. It is a fundamental role. It is either primary or secondary.
It would be more accurate to say that "religious ideology" in the US is the problem, but that still comes back to an examination of the Judeo-Christian experience of this country.
Puritan strains from the 17th century still muck up ethical and moral considerations. Think about these overt examples:
- The ten-year campaign by the Oregon Citizens' Alliance against homosexuals which saw multiple state-level attempts to officially ostracize and demonize homosexuality, and included a desperate attempt to amend the Oregon Constitution to explicitly acknowledge God.
- Equality is often defined as, "We can all be equal when you agree with my Christian morals." In other words, in the name of Free Religion, Christians often ask others to forsake Free Speech. I'm sorry, but Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Wiccans, neo-pagans--these aren't the folks protesting books in schools; these aren't the folks whose religion has enjoyed a long presumption of advantage in american society; these aren't the folks who want to ban records--in the US, those people are Christians. Many Christian lamentations of discrimination are merely the equalizing of the social process.
- Especially in Christianity, religious considerations take precedence over all else, including common sense. Many Christians object to schools addressing issues that happen to coincide with the individual Christian's sublimated obsession (e.g. sex education).
- You know, I didn't hear the atheists, Muslims, Wiccans, &c, &c calling for the US to spend $40 million prosecuting a blowjob.
If you read through the records of religion in American history, Christianity comes off as a particularly psychotic, violent, and bizarre creature. From the time of the Puritans, when women were hauled from town to town in carts half-naked in the snow to be publicly whipped on up to the present when the remnants of Puritanism still cause Christians to wring their hands over gays, or compel conservatives to trash-talk single mothers as irresponsible while for ages failing to address the responsibility of the fathers, it's all the same Christ on a dog-and-pony show.
Think of televangelism. It's a multi-billion dollar industry. It's known to be crooked. But people keep sending their money. And keep sending. And keep sending. And many of them believe in odd causes because of their favorite televangelists. I get no less than three religious stations by airwave on my television up here, all Christian, and all bent on worrying over the dangers of lesbianism and rock and roll and how that's leading us down the narrow path to war. I don't know ... it was only ten minutes the last time I stopped on one of those stations, but it might have run together nonetheless.
You noted scientific research. 'Nuff said there because I could go on for hours.
I'll tell you what, I'll start a topic for you.
Honestly, I wonder how it is that you didn't notice? Yes, innocent people are busted and harassed regularly. At least one of them has died in custody. Like I said, I'll start another topic, but people have been raising these issues all over the more political fora.
Um ....
It's easiest to say that they choose it because it is easier than actually learning their own moral compass. And yes they do murder and steal and rape. They're human beings. Moral compass? Perhaps in the ideal, but in the United States, identity is a political value.
I've never really admitted to myself how deeply I think religion and especially Christianity runs in the US. I've posted about it, but I can't actually recall ever sitting down with myself and saying, "Now, how scary does it get?"
Think about it this way: Three quarters, according to survey, of Americans believe in Hell and the Devil. That's three quarters of them dwelling considerably on their own soul and what they want for it. It's a form of greed. And that in and of itself is one of the most damaging aspects I can think of: cultural paradigm-level sanctified greed.
Three quarters? That's hardly definitive, but it does bring some definition to the image. But that's a hell of a lot of people wasting a hell of a lot of time thinking about their own poor lamentable souls.
:m:
Re: Bush the father on atheists
Isn't this "I support the separation of church and state" George HW Bush who signed Public Law 102-14, which stated that the US was founded upon the Seven Universal Laws of Noah and further asserted that these laws are the foundation of all society?
- A Christian forum discussion regarding PL 102-14. Note: Anti-Semites will probably like this long post, but I was looking for the text of 102-14, and this was one of the first places I found it. The post itself is titled, "Talumdists Pass Law to Kill Christians", so I make no claims for either the website itself nor the editorial commentary of the rest of the post.
- Noahide Concision (Every discussion of Noahide laws I find quite obviously addresses Judaism; I think this one is a bit lighter than the last).
anyway ...
:m:,
Tiassa
Edit: Fix hyperlink
Last edited:
Bush is a llama
They are all idiots... our government is run by a bunch of virtual-reality-living morons who have nothing better to do than give all the credit for everything to stuff that doesn't exist...
..and attempt to re-write history in an attempt to make everyone believe that the founding fathers wanted things this way.
I'm completely disgusted by the way our country has become..
but that's what happens when most people are living in a virtual reality and are able to vote people in.
..not that bush was voted in.. that damn appointed dictator.
I'd move somewhere if I could..but I don't know what I could deal with out there - seeing as I haven't really been anywhere yet.
But I think atheism needs to be fought for... maybe I shouldn't leave... I just need to contribute more.. can't let these morons take things over.
They are all idiots... our government is run by a bunch of virtual-reality-living morons who have nothing better to do than give all the credit for everything to stuff that doesn't exist...
..and attempt to re-write history in an attempt to make everyone believe that the founding fathers wanted things this way.
I'm completely disgusted by the way our country has become..
but that's what happens when most people are living in a virtual reality and are able to vote people in.
..not that bush was voted in.. that damn appointed dictator.
I'd move somewhere if I could..but I don't know what I could deal with out there - seeing as I haven't really been anywhere yet.
But I think atheism needs to be fought for... maybe I shouldn't leave... I just need to contribute more.. can't let these morons take things over.
The discrimination against homosexuals is highly exaggerated, and not a big enough problem to make Christianity the primary or secondary problem of the United States.
You don't have any examples of this, and frankly I don't see it that often. If it happens, its behind closed doors. Sure, there is a general distrust of cults, but you can't say this distrust isn't justified after Jonestown and the other mass suicide incidents. The Christians I know don't discriminate. What churches have you been going to?
Btw, this double standard that you hold for religious groups bothers me. It seems like you only target Christianity, one of the most passive and peaceful religions, and don't even mention the two billion Muslims with much more bizarre and destructive beliefs. The reason they don't protest those things is because they aren't powerful here: they wouldn't make any headway. If the Muslims were the majority, believe me, you would notice it.
True, teaching abstinence doesn't work very well, but at least it doesn't hurt. Teaching kids kama sutra seems like it would hurt. What do you want to do, hand out condoms in class and show pornography? Hire strippers for class?
Come on, let the parents have at least a little say in this.
Its better than most of the other religions than I can mention. The fact that many of these things directly contradict the Bible just strengthen my point: these actions are a part of human nature. Many cultures have similiar problems, only worse. Hell, look at the Romans before Christianity, then after. Look at the modern Islamic countries. Maybe Christianity just tempered the customary fierceness of the Europeans. Lets look at a few New Testament verses from my memory.
"Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."
"Take the log of your eye before you take the twig of another's."
"The meek shall inherit the Earth."
"Turn the other cheek."
"Treat your neighbor as yourself"(The Golden Rule)
Ect, ect. Do you I need to explain these with an impact, Tiassa? These verses are God's word., not to taken lightly. Many of those atrocities that you attribute to Christianity are just plain old corruption, not inspired by the Bible at all.
No examples. Yes, I've heard talk about injustice, but I don't actually find too many examples. I'd imagine the media would pounce on a real strong example of injustice. But, we are getting away from the point here. I'd like an example of injustice inspired by Christianity, since that's what we are debating. Again, you don't have to be Christian to want to crack down on criminals and terrorists using questionable means.
And about half of them go to Church once a year or less, I'd bet. Americans are not devout Christians, let me tell you, but most of them aren't quite ready to admit they are atheists yet. I won't even call myself an atheist yet. These people are not religious extremists.
What's so damaging about it? This annoying moral crap doesn't make any sense. What is your religion, Tiassa?
Don't condemn greed. Greed=Ambition=Accomplishment.
Something you wouldn't know about, I suppose.
There can be both ambition and accomplishment without greed. I DO condemn greed and selfishness, but those are just my morals. I would rather put hard work into curing cancer or aids, and make a modest income, then work hard to become a CEO of a tobaco corp. and be a billionaire. We may have become extinct about 40,000 years ago if it weren't for kindness towards our fellow man. Do you think less of me because I would help you if I could? Am I weak and stupid for this? If so, then get back to worshipping you Idol Machieaveli, and hope that one of the "better" people like you doesn't ruin your life for an extra swimming pool.
I'll refute this strange BS about greed for your soul. According to the Protestant branch of Christianity, you go to heaven no matter how much you sin. True, you can gather riches in heaven, but for most people they never even think of it. Most people join Christianity because it gives their life more purpose, and it also gives them a sense of community with their church.
And blankc, Tiassa uses greed in the sense that to reach for anything extravagant is a form of greed. So if you're trying to cure cancer, you're just being greedy. Soul-greedy, or perhaps greedy in the sense that you would receive lots of recognition and acclaim.
Everyone does things for themselves. Apparently Tiassa does his altruistic deeds so he can get a sense of morality and righteousness. He wants to be noble.
Balder1: On a campaign?
You know, I've got people bitching at me about the length of my posts, about my citations, about the amount of evidence they're expected to consider.
Column A? Column B?
Remember the "Cape Fear" episode of The Simpsons, when Bart kept running from end to end on the boat, looking for a way out?
- Top 100 Most Frequently Challenged Books, 1990 - 2000 (#2 Daddy's Roommate, and #11 Heather Has Two Mommies are both about homosexuality. Heather, in fact, is the impetus for the Oregon Citizens' Alliance anti-gay crusade. It started at the Springfield, Oregon public library. Ten freaking years, Balder1. Ten freaking years.)
Also on that list: #1, #7, #9, #16, #18, #22, #27, #28, #34, #36 ... Jeez, I can't keep up with how many of these are challenged by religious folk. In the year 2000, Harry Potter topped the challenged list. The American Library Association notes:
If you don't see it that often, you might not be looking for it. I've never seen a real buried treasure. But then, I've never gone and looked for one.
Besides, I know Christianity inside and out; I was raised by white Sunday Christians in the United States of America and spent so much time in the paradox of apathy and faith that I've found I understand the religion better than most of the faithful.
Do you know what the women were carted through the streets for? Disagreeing with their preacher. What is it about Christians that for all the alleged advantages of faith, they're happy to merely be "as good" as the infidels?
There's all manner of evil sht in the Bible, and for ages the faithful have been tailoring their faith to their existing prejudices. You call it human nature. Well, analogously, I'd say it was fire, but some people would call it a 757 crashing into the World Trade Center. You can call it human nature, but I see a massive and frightening exaggeration of some of the worst aspects thereof in the Christian manifestation.
The Pastor who joined the genocide (BBC). It's a pretty ugly story.
God Hates Fags, a website devoted to the triumph of Christ over the wicked homosexuals, run by Fred Phelps, former Democratic fundraiser and delegate:
Now that's some pretty wicked Christianity right there.
Think on this one, Balder1: I grew up in a family that owned two houses, five cars, anywhere between three and six boats at any given time, and lived simultaneously in two states, and I was expected to believe that we were poor. Give me a fcking break.
The only problem with being noble is that it involves a comparison that I reject as a motivation.
Try arguing ideas in the future, Balder1. Don't argue just to argue against me. By the way, that Protestant "loving-god" theory has a wonderful little name attached to it: "Market-Share Theology". I gotta admit, the deathbed confession is a great out for those sinners who couldn't get it right the first time, or the second when they were born again, or the third when they were born again, or the fourth when they converted to some communal post-Hindu tax shelter, or the fifth time when they were saved in a bitter condemnation of other religions while never bothering to stop and look at what was sick about their own damned hearts.
Argue ideas, Balder1, and not against me. You'll be able to see even your own issues much more clearly.
:m:,
Tiassa
Yes, yes, yes. I'm sure you were there, weren't you, when 49% of the vote wished to strip homosexuals of their civil rights and rewrite the state curriculum from kindergarten through medical school to include a constant and proactive denunciation of homosexuality. We all held our breath for a moment.
Oh, for fuck's sake.
You know, I've got people bitching at me about the length of my posts, about my citations, about the amount of evidence they're expected to consider.
Column A? Column B?
Remember the "Cape Fear" episode of The Simpsons, when Bart kept running from end to end on the boat, looking for a way out?
- Top 100 Most Frequently Challenged Books, 1990 - 2000 (#2 Daddy's Roommate, and #11 Heather Has Two Mommies are both about homosexuality. Heather, in fact, is the impetus for the Oregon Citizens' Alliance anti-gay crusade. It started at the Springfield, Oregon public library. Ten freaking years, Balder1. Ten freaking years.)
Also on that list: #1, #7, #9, #16, #18, #22, #27, #28, #34, #36 ... Jeez, I can't keep up with how many of these are challenged by religious folk. In the year 2000, Harry Potter topped the challenged list. The American Library Association notes:
Let's see ... four of the top ten in 2000 were noted for occult themes, among other issues. And Maya Angelou? Perhaps you missed the 1980s and a crusade against popular music. Of course, there was also the Marilyn Manson debacle six years ago.
If you don't see it that often, you might not be looking for it. I've never seen a real buried treasure. But then, I've never gone and looked for one.
I'll take your word for it. I was raised Lutheran, went to Catholic school, am on modestly good terms with Quakers, severely dislike the Southern Baptist Convention, Seventh-Day Adventism, the Missouri Synod, and pretty much any other Christian church I've happened to be in whose denomination I did not catch. I've generally avoided houses of Christian worship for the last ten or so years, preferring to set foot inside only for family funerals.
Oh, quit your whining, you pathetic bigot. Christianity is much more directly a threat to me than Islam. Islam is only bizarre and scary if you choose to make it seem that way. What, there's violent Muslims? There's hideous Christians, too. I trust people as people and distrust them according to their labels.
Besides, I know Christianity inside and out; I was raised by white Sunday Christians in the United States of America and spent so much time in the paradox of apathy and faith that I've found I understand the religion better than most of the faithful.
Yeah, I'd hear a lot more quarter-tones.
Reminding people that abstinence is an option is worthwhile. But we all know it's unrealistic. Insisting on abstinence as the sole mode of curriculum, however, is a lunacy unique in the US to Christians.
Well, that would be ridiculous.
Condoms should be available in ... well, I say high school, but I'm willing to accept junior high, as well. It is the responsibility of the parents to provide their children with the appropriate pornography.
Art class? Or sex ed?
They do. Like my father did. He simply refused to ever address the issue. I learned at school, from the World Book, looking up "reproduction", in ... sixth grade or seventh. I knew kids in high school who believed you could get pregnant from kissing. Come on ... can we please charge the parents with abuse, or at least dereliction in such cases?
Only if you really believe it.
As I understand it, that's no excuse in God's eyes. Of course, what with the forgiveness myth and all ....
Do you know what the women were carted through the streets for? Disagreeing with their preacher. What is it about Christians that for all the alleged advantages of faith, they're happy to merely be "as good" as the infidels?
Um ... wasn't Rome sacked in there, sometime?
Yeah, it's kind of a shame. From the grandest empire in the world to being left out in the cold due to longstanding, religious-based bigotries.
The Europeans, perhaps, but it reinvested itself in the Americans.
It's a nice excuse that fits nicely with a tiny sampling such as you have provided. I'm sure you're aware of the Amalakites in the Old Testament, and how God punished Saul, first King of Israel, for failing to complete a genocide. Or when an angel of the Lord praised Lot for offering his daughters up for gang rape. Or 1 Corinthians which prohibits women speaking in church, and demands that they must be in submission (by the way, do you know what Islam means?) There's 1 Timothy, which dictates dress and quietness and submission again. We pick on Muslims for the burka, but there's always 1 Corinthians 11.5:
I fully admit that Islam makes me at least as nervous as Christianity, especially American Christianity. And the reason is that Muslims in general take God more seriously than American Christians, and are more devoted to their faith.
There's all manner of evil sh
t in the Bible, and for ages the faithful have been tailoring their faith to their existing prejudices. You call it human nature. Well, analogously, I'd say it was fire, but some people would call it a 757 crashing into the World Trade Center. You can call it human nature, but I see a massive and frightening exaggeration of some of the worst aspects thereof in the Christian manifestation.
How about genocide?
The Pastor who joined the genocide (BBC). It's a pretty ugly story.
God Hates Fags, a website devoted to the triumph of Christ over the wicked homosexuals, run by Fred Phelps, former Democratic fundraiser and delegate:
- Note: The above excerpt comes from the Anti-Defamation League.
Now that's some pretty wicked Christianity right there.
They don't have to be extremists. It's just that every day of their lives they think in terms of what happens after they die.
If I need to explain to you what is damaging about cultural paradigm-level sanctified greed, then perhaps you shouldn't be undertaking this conversation right now.
Of course not; it's fundamental. As such, it's not supposed to make sense to you right away.
I have no official religion.
From Saint Augustine to Machiavelli to Adam Smith to Henry Ford to Bill Gates, and a heavenly host of philosophers lost along the way. Kant, Hegel, Hume, Hobbes, Rousseau, Locke ... all of it and that equation has not been written in its proper form yet. Greed represents excess of necessity.
Actually, I know greed very well. I was raised to be greedy. It's a daily struggle to purge myself. Of course, my father was an idiot in that sense; he actually thought he could insist on integrity while teaching greed. Whether it was parental affection, being the younger brother, or the fact that integrity demonstrably proved itself to be the most economic theoretical course, I chose integrity over greed.
You'll have to explain that one. What is extravagant about curing cancer?
Think on this one, Balder1: I grew up in a family that owned two houses, five cars, anywhere between three and six boats at any given time, and lived simultaneously in two states, and I was expected to believe that we were poor. Give me a f
cking break.
Again, one of those fundamental inadequacies that you just can't help, Balder1. It comes with the paradigm. If you were smarter, you would know to never apply your own perspective to whomever it is you've decided is your enemy for the day.
The only problem with being noble is that it involves a comparison that I reject as a motivation.
Try arguing ideas in the future, Balder1. Don't argue just to argue against me. By the way, that Protestant "loving-god" theory has a wonderful little name attached to it: "Market-Share Theology". I gotta admit, the deathbed confession is a great out for those sinners who couldn't get it right the first time, or the second when they were born again, or the third when they were born again, or the fourth when they converted to some communal post-Hindu tax shelter, or the fifth time when they were saved in a bitter condemnation of other religions while never bothering to stop and look at what was sick about their own damned hearts.
Argue ideas, Balder1, and not against me. You'll be able to see even your own issues much more clearly.
:m:,
Tiassa
President Bush has never been shy about injecting his faith into the public arena - his campaign remark that Jesus Christ was his "favorite political philosopher" was an early signal. But his rising use of religious language and imagery in recent months, especially with regard to the US role in the world, has stirred concern both at home and abroad.
In this year's State of the Union address, for example, Bush quoted an evangelical hymn that refers to the power of Christ. "'There's power, wonder-working power,' in the goodness and idealism and faith of the American people," he said.
New scrutiny of role of religion in Bush's policies
chris
this time it is the son
In this year's State of the Union address, for example, Bush quoted an evangelical hymn that refers to the power of Christ. "'There's power, wonder-working power,' in the goodness and idealism and faith of the American people," he said.
New scrutiny of role of religion in Bush's policies
chris
this time it is the son
Lets throw some laws on the books designed to take away some of your basic human rights, and then tie up a few of your friends and drag 'em behind a pickuptruck for a few miles, or beat 'em to death out in the wilderness or something, and then we'll see who eggagerates about descrimination.
This is a pretty piss pore excuse. If it's suposidly human nature, why isn't everyone engaged in such acctivities?
I've got to agree, Tiassa, after all who would be arrogant enough to believe that they have the power to overcome the combined sex drives of the entire nation's teenagers!? It's maddness! Like it or not young people are going to screw, plan on it!
Haha, Oh god, I'm glad you bought this site up, because now I have to share an anicdote with you.
I was dating this guy not so long ago and we were back at his place, we went into his bedroom to do what gay guys sometimes do together in bed
He turns the lights really low, and puts on some music, playing from his computer (Because he had some really damn good speakers hooked up to that thing) and like 3 songs into his playlist what comes on but. . . That's right one of Fred Phelps sermons, that he downloaded off of godhatesfags.com! Haha, he wisperd into my ear that he always wanted to fuck a guy while listening to this, so we proceded to screw like minks while phelps ranted on about the evils of homosexuality, haha, it was really a beautiful experience.So in your opinion, then, Tiassa, is it immoral to live at anything but subsistance level? I realize that this is a probably an issue for another thread, and maybe I'll start it tomorow, but I've got to dissagree with you about your stance on "greed".
Mystech
So you would agree, then, with the point that I counter?
That is, do you agree that:
Greed = Ambition = Accomplishment?
The relationship of the passion (vice) and the interest (virtue) is not well determined. As I said, from St. Augustine (ad nauseam) ... the equation has not yet been written in its proper form.
I'm not going to split hairs and haul out the dictionary yet, because it seems unnecessary. But greed is a word which describes improper excess and the desire thereof.
A practical example or two:
Microsoft:
(1) Greed - Excessive desire for money
(2) Ambition - Microsoft on every desktop, in every computer
(3) Accomplishment - Popular but second-rate software
Christianity:
(1) Greed - Inherent in worrying about the soul
(2) Ambition - To reconcile with God
(3) Accomplishment - Inquisition, Salem Trials, Oregon Citizens' Alliance, peodphilia
The equation doesn't always add up unless we find virtue in second-rate products and pedophilia.
I look forward to the topic.
:m:,
Tiassa
So you would agree, then, with the point that I counter?
That is, do you agree that:
Greed = Ambition = Accomplishment?
The relationship of the passion (vice) and the interest (virtue) is not well determined. As I said, from St. Augustine (ad nauseam) ... the equation has not yet been written in its proper form.
I'm not going to split hairs and haul out the dictionary yet, because it seems unnecessary. But greed is a word which describes improper excess and the desire thereof.
A practical example or two:
Microsoft:
(1) Greed - Excessive desire for money
(2) Ambition - Microsoft on every desktop, in every computer
(3) Accomplishment - Popular but second-rate software
Christianity:
(1) Greed - Inherent in worrying about the soul
(2) Ambition - To reconcile with God
(3) Accomplishment - Inquisition, Salem Trials, Oregon Citizens' Alliance, peodphilia
The equation doesn't always add up unless we find virtue in second-rate products and pedophilia.
I look forward to the topic.
:m:,
Tiassa
See, that's where I have a problem. How can you call what microsoft does imoral (Well without getting into the practise of fireing their employees, and then hiring them back through contractors so that they miss out on the benefits that they were JUST about to become eligable for).
They sell a product and people buy it, it's a mutual agreement to mutual benefit, and it is in this way that they generate their billions of dollars. All of it fairly earned, and because of it Microsoft has been the key company in ushering in this age wherein there is a PC or 2 or 3 in every home, and they are now essential bussiness tools.
At what point does this beocome wrong? When does someone else have the right to say that they are just TOO good, and as such can't sell their products anymore?
They sell a product and people buy it, it's a mutual agreement to mutual benefit, and it is in this way that they generate their billions of dollars. All of it fairly earned, and because of it Microsoft has been the key company in ushering in this age wherein there is a PC or 2 or 3 in every home, and they are now essential bussiness tools.
At what point does this beocome wrong? When does someone else have the right to say that they are just TOO good, and as such can't sell their products anymore?
Here we go...
Islams view it no less harshly than Christians. They believe it is sinful and an affront to Allah, but they also condemn all sodomy in general and especially dislike the gay civil rights groups.. The Jews follow the Old Testament, and God's laws against homosexuality are in there.
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=72352
By the way, homosexuals aren't the poor, oppressed, paragons of virtue that liberals sometimes show them as. They lead a sexually deviant lifestyle that I find highly disturbing. I'll reveal a an old demon: I was sexually molested by a man, when I was around eleven. It was emotionally scarring, and it was never reported. I'm pretty damn bitter about it, and I do have some prejudice against the fuckers.
Gay men compromise about 1.5% of the population, yet
1/3 of the reported sex abuse cases are man/boy. Ironically, it is rampant among the Catholic Church itself. They can't be that hard on homosexuality after that, can they?
So, I'll concede this point, that Christianity causes discrimination against homosexuals, but that minor little problem is already being beaten into the ground by media and Civil Rights activists. This does not make Christianity the main problem with Americans.
I won't even address the sex education thing, your right on that, but it is still relatively minor.
I'll try and work on that greed issue some other time. For now, I think you've got enough to feed off of, tiassa.
I won't argue that this isn't a bad thing, and it is mostly caused by our Christians, but the condemnation of homosexuals is in the Old Testament, the part of the Bible not taken as seriously as the New Testament. Most of those who use the Bible as an excuse to condemn are not true Christians, and it goes back to a destructive human nature again.
Islams view it no less harshly than Christians. They believe it is sinful and an affront to Allah, but they also condemn all sodomy in general and especially dislike the gay civil rights groups.. The Jews follow the Old Testament, and God's laws against homosexuality are in there.
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=72352
By the way, homosexuals aren't the poor, oppressed, paragons of virtue that liberals sometimes show them as. They lead a sexually deviant lifestyle that I find highly disturbing. I'll reveal a an old demon: I was sexually molested by a man, when I was around eleven. It was emotionally scarring, and it was never reported. I'm pretty damn bitter about it, and I do have some prejudice against the fuckers.
Gay men compromise about 1.5% of the population, yet
1/3 of the reported sex abuse cases are man/boy. Ironically, it is rampant among the Catholic Church itself. They can't be that hard on homosexuality after that, can they?
So, I'll concede this point, that Christianity causes discrimination against homosexuals, but that minor little problem is already being beaten into the ground by media and Civil Rights activists. This does not make Christianity the main problem with Americans.
And this was the best you could come up with. Are you saying they fought this book in schools, and that's a bad thing, or fought it being published at all? I suppose you wouldn't mind a lot of people reading Understanding Loved Boys and Boylovers , a book about man/boy pedophilia?
I generally don't like the Bible, but are there really that many evil passages in the New Testament? What are some of them?
I won't even address the sex education thing, your right on that, but it is still relatively minor.
That is exactly like blaming all Islamics for 9/11. I'm not sure if your one of the one who decries people doing that, though.
I guess you've been influenced by Catholics a lot. According to the Protestants, once you've accepted, your in, heaven's assured, nothing to worry about. With the Catholics, they have to worry about purgatory, but I honestly don't think anyone thinks about it much in our society.
Its an unreasonably high goal, and the rewards of such a deed in terms of a man's ego, reputation, and fame are all much higher than necessary. And that really was what you were arguing, wasn't it? If trying to achieve more favor in God's eyes is greedy, then isn't trying to achieve more favor in the eyes of humanity or yourself greedy as well?
Correction, Accomplishment - Computers are now an easy friendly, household item. The joys of Capitalism.
I'll try and work on that greed issue some other time. For now, I think you've got enough to feed off of, tiassa.
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Um ... okay. Whatever.
However, sexual abuse was the foundation of most of the suicidal tendencies I found myself counseling in my friends. I look to a very dear friend of mine. The man who sexually abused her for eight years was a white, heterosexual Christian. I've seen the scars. I've also sat and listened to a judge acquit a man of raping his child because she apparently didn't scream loudly enough :bugeye: But ... well, I suppose I ought to just leave you to your feelings. Some people tried to make their feelings law, though. And that's wrong.
But the flip-side of that is that the librarian who brought a book advocating sexual abuse of minors into a public library would be called to answer before the people. See, one of the things about NAMBLA is that technically, everything about them is illegal, but thanks to investigative and prosecutorial abuses in other fields (e.g. Communism, marijuana), membership in a group is not proper cause for action. (Just like the Miranda Act; if a couple of cops hadn't abused the shit out of an innocent Hispanic, there would be no "reading of rights".)
Where's the extension you protest?
:m:,
Tiassa
But neither the Jews nor Muslims have claimed that their civil rights are violated if they're not allowed to vote on whom to ostracize next. Just a practical observation; the Christians keep bringing it to the ballot box.
There is little here that I can say: I understand (no, because I didn't go through it), I can imagine ( :bugeye: ), &c.
However, sexual abuse was the foundation of most of the suicidal tendencies I found myself counseling in my friends. I look to a very dear friend of mine. The man who sexually abused her for eight years was a white, heterosexual Christian. I've seen the scars. I've also sat and listened to a judge acquit a man of raping his child because she apparently didn't scream loudly enough :bugeye: But ... well, I suppose I ought to just leave you to your feelings. Some people tried to make their feelings law, though. And that's wrong.
I agree. This alone does not make Christianity the main problem.
A group of people objected to the presence of the book in the public library. The library board told them to shove off; libraries are fierce defenders of the First Amendment, for obvious reasons (ask Michael Moore's publisher). So the offended Christians got together and started circulating petitions for a law that would make it illegal for the city to address homosexuality without condemning it. It passed in Springfield, it passed in Corvallis. The Oregon Citizens' Alliance, a disgruntled and unsuccessful anti-abortion group, took the cause to the state ballot in 1992. The campaign was rough; only a couple of break-ins and only two gays dead in a firebombing. The measure would have changed the state constitution to make it illegal to endorse, promote, or encourage homosexuality (endorse was the hard word for the campaign; encourage was the word the OCA focused on). Legal interpretations of the measure were devastating; teachers would be fired, and this the OCA crowed about. But then again, so would police officers, firemen, and the typing pool at the capitol. Libraries, public schools (including colleges, and therefore the medical schools), state offices---any body receiving public funds ... Devastating. But the OCA was proud of this. They thought it was all good and fine. And come election day, they almost pulled it off. But they didn't. So they tried again. They got Keizer, and went for the state again. And lost. And tried again. And lost. Ten years they were at it. A similar law passed in Colorado in 1992, but got gutted by the courts. The laws they intended to pass were illegal. And guess what? They cried foul. Discrimination! If we can't vote homosexuals out of society, our rights as Christians are being impinged! Gay agenda! Bigots! Gay agenda! Satanic haters! Gay agenda! The OCA and a group called CFV (Colorado for Family Values) were the primary reasons you heard about a gay debate at all in the 1990s. Neither group, especially the OCA, would let it go. Literally: it started over a library book. I'm not fucking with you. Seriously. I promise you.
I would be more worried if the book was in high demand. An interesting note: one of the most stolen library books in the last 35 years is LaVey's Satanic Bible. Creepy, eh?
But the flip-side of that is that the librarian who brought a book advocating sexual abuse of minors into a public library would be called to answer before the people. See, one of the things about NAMBLA is that technically, everything about them is illegal, but thanks to investigative and prosecutorial abuses in other fields (e.g. Communism, marijuana), membership in a group is not proper cause for action. (Just like the Miranda Act; if a couple of cops hadn't abused the shit out of an innocent Hispanic, there would be no "reading of rights".)
We have the highest per capita teen-unwed birth rate in the First World. While new homosexual cases of HIV are declining, new heterosexual cases are increasing due to complicity. How many abortions last year?! I think it's more than minor. It's huge.
You asked for an example of injustice. I provided you an example in a Seventh-Day Adventist pastor who, for whatever reasons, participated in genocide. I provided the example of a preacher who ... well ... Fred Phelps speaks well for himself.
Where's the extension you protest?
Which pretty much renders the whole thing pointless. I am the one who thinks of the Christian God as a bizarre psychospiritual racketeer clambering for market-share. That very point you made is one of the reasons why. What's really funny, though, is the number of non-Catholics who wonder where the hell I get the idea that "once you accept, you're in". Thank you for affirming that; it happens to serve another point of mine very well.
Comfort is a necessity. Non-suffering is a necessity. Why in the world would health be excessive? Because it doesn't add up on a ledger sheet? (The joys of Capitalism ....) I don't get it.
Who ever said it wasn't?
Um ... yeah. Microsoft invented the personal computer ... :bugeye:
Empty calories. Kind of like cheese puffs. One can assert that there's food substance in there, but it sure as hell don't look like it
:m:,
Tiassa
Re: Um ... okay. Whatever.
Good points, but christianity and religion submerssions is a BIG problems for all societies. I really believe that Christian America is a worst america than the America I always dreamed of.
The problem stems from the churches, mosques, and synogoges. Now, the act of going to church and listenening to preachers and performing home visits and missionaries is much important to the christians than it is to the Jews and Muslims. Jews and muslims don't believe that they are deciples of god who are responsible for spreading the good news. Also, in the US, and believe me I know, there is a new trend of building so many new churches or fellowships. I'm an environmental engineer in charge of issuing site and grading permits, and I see so many churches come to my desk everyday. I must say that in the last two years, I must have permitted 300 churches or so, and absolutely no mosque or synagoge. I'm finding that christians spend a lot of time in churches. Usually three times a week. That's a lot if you ask me, and this trend bothers me about the US.
Parents don't want to send their kids to public schools anymore, and prefer christian schools. That really bother me. Why the hell are we so ashamed of our public schools, the more we stay ashamed of integrating races, religions, sexes, ect, the more backward we will become, and please don't tell me, the public schools are bad. It's the society shunning the schools is what is making them bad. Yes, the quality of life in US is deteriorating for the free and it's all because of the christians.
Do you know that my boss at work, can't possibly talk on any subject without somehow preaching his Jesus is god crap to me. Without suggesting that kids that don't go to christian schools are going to grow as prostetutes and drug addicts. That if you're not baptized in the church, you're not a worthy human, and condemened to fire. He keeps inviting people to his church, and he's not alone believe me. Where the hell is the freedom?
Tiassa,
Good points, but christianity and religion submerssions is a BIG problems for all societies. I really believe that Christian America is a worst america than the America I always dreamed of.
The problem stems from the churches, mosques, and synogoges. Now, the act of going to church and listenening to preachers and performing home visits and missionaries is much important to the christians than it is to the Jews and Muslims. Jews and muslims don't believe that they are deciples of god who are responsible for spreading the good news. Also, in the US, and believe me I know, there is a new trend of building so many new churches or fellowships. I'm an environmental engineer in charge of issuing site and grading permits, and I see so many churches come to my desk everyday. I must say that in the last two years, I must have permitted 300 churches or so, and absolutely no mosque or synagoge. I'm finding that christians spend a lot of time in churches. Usually three times a week. That's a lot if you ask me, and this trend bothers me about the US.
Parents don't want to send their kids to public schools anymore, and prefer christian schools. That really bother me. Why the hell are we so ashamed of our public schools, the more we stay ashamed of integrating races, religions, sexes, ect, the more backward we will become, and please don't tell me, the public schools are bad. It's the society shunning the schools is what is making them bad. Yes, the quality of life in US is deteriorating for the free and it's all because of the christians.
Do you know that my boss at work, can't possibly talk on any subject without somehow preaching his Jesus is god crap to me. Without suggesting that kids that don't go to christian schools are going to grow as prostetutes and drug addicts. That if you're not baptized in the church, you're not a worthy human, and condemened to fire. He keeps inviting people to his church, and he's not alone believe me. Where the hell is the freedom?