Why doesn't God just show himself?

Jenyar said:
No, it's not. But it does matter what the standards are. God does not exclude people on the basis of affiliation, after all, but on whether they know Him or not. That knowledge is expressed as love, but can still be denied nontheless.
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So since you created the fantasy of your deity in your mind, it's fine for you to just start spewing its properties eh?

How do you know god isn't a dick? Depending on your affiliation, people are bound to determine that god doesn't like your affiliation. Are you saying they're all wrong? How the shit do you know?

Such, IMO, is a key problem with taking a theist stance. You presume you can discern the properties of god, when truly, you don't know shit about it. What if god isn't love? What if god is hate? What if god is evolution? What if god is anything but how you choose to think you relate to it? Yes, you have faith that god is what you think god is... I understand that, but in making your presumption you consign your deity to your perception of it - which is noteably unreliable. Worse, IMO, to assume the idea of "god" as "comprehensible" in the sense that you can interpret it as "love" or anything in particular besides its definition is IMO, the definition of irreverence. I think if you believe in god, you should at least be consistent and discontinue attempts to anthropomorphize it.
 
wesmorris said:
Worse, IMO, to assume the idea of "god" as "comprehensible" in the sense that you can interpret it as "love" or anything in particular besides its definition is IMO, the definition of irreverence. I think if you believe in god, you should at least be consistent and discontinue attempts to anthropomorphize it.
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As irreverent as asserting that 1+1=2 could possibly be *gasp* algebra?

Sorry, wes, but knowing God sort of forces me to make those assertions. I don't have the luxury of being cautiously agnostic anymore. What if Abraham, Isaac and Jacob existed? What if Israel really had a God. What if Jesus was right about religion? No, I'll leave it to those who have no interest in finding out what is true to point out all the "what if's" that found no answers.
 
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Ah, I see... so my comments indicated that "I have no interest in finding out what is true"? Eh? So much for being respectful eh?
 
What if Abraham, Isaac and Jacob existed? What if Israel really had a God. What if Jesus was right about religion?
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And what if they didnt? What if its all a sham, would you then be interested to find out the truth? You cant know the truth until this life is over you can only have faith in it, as much as we all want the truth.
 
Hi p.m.thorne. Sorry if I seem ambiguous. I do meander alot. And I always had a hard time of putting my thoughts down on pixels. I think I also use a lot of symbolism perhaps. Anyway. I'm trying to look at creation in a very hard and literal sense. Personally tornadoes and storms intrigue me (as long as I'm not right in the middle of them natch). But if you were a creator and you can create anything you want...would you create the physics or conditions that would form a tornado or hurricane? Knowing that the force of these storms would kill innocent lives easily? Knowing that these storms perform no useful purpose but uncontrollable destruction? (are there any useful qualities of tornadoes or hurricanes that can't be done any other way?) And earthquakes. I'm questioning god's blue prints of having moving tectonic plates. Why? If it wasn't obvious at the beginning that these moving plates can cause tremendous damage and loss of innocent life then god could have went "oops! well let's change that a bit". You see, I'm looking at creation in terms of how you or me would do it. Positive things. Would you knowingly sit down and make something that causes incredible damage and grief?

You mentioned about people's purpose and evil is force that stops or interferes in finding this purpose. Exactly how do you find your purpose that god wants you to have? Is it jumping form job to job until you find something you like? Do you feel it in your heart? Can a street person say he found his true purpose? Can a person that was born physically or mentally handicapped find his true purpose? Can a starving baby in africa who doesn't live past his 3rd birthday fullfilled god's purpose in life? It's a nice thought that each and everyone of us has a purpose that god wants us to fullfill. But unless he phones you up directly and tells you then how can we be sure?

PS...can being a bad example be a purpose? :)

I'll try to explain my thoughts on freewill again. I said freewill can work if god doesn't know what we will choose before we actually choose it. But according to the bible god already knows what man will do. That countries will go to war. That an antichrist will be born and have no choice but to start armageddon. Can that antichrist, who let's presume hasn't been born yet, have a change of heart and say I don't want to be evil? Freewill should have that option right? Anything is possible with freewill, no? Another example is when jesus told peter that he will deceive him not once, not twice, but exactly 3 times before the cock crows. Why exactly 3 times? Unless it was already in god's plan. Could peter have said after the 2nd time he deceived jesus..."Hey jesus was right I am deceiving him. Well no more! I don't care what the romans do to me! I will not deceive my lord again!!!" Having freewill would make that option a possibility. But even jesus knew that wasn't in the cards. I guess it's alot like the arguement on randomness and freedom going on in the other posts. So freewill is not "free" if it has no choice but to follow a certain path. A path that god already knows...and talks about in the bible.

I hope that makes things a little clearer.


ciau
 
Jenyar said:
But we have already established that you do know. You know love, which is the common ground we stand on. If you were outside love you would have wanted to be included in it, no so? And even you're not - wanting to love and be loved is an expression of desire - a desire to experience something that you have no real *knowledge* of, just a rumour, and idea, an ideal, a vague reflection of it in a mirror or a book - but still something more *real* in comparison than anything else.
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Yes, but according to you, my love is worth nothing unless I *call* it God and decide to explicitly follow Jesus.
 
Lemming3k said:
And by what means can you tell we dont?(without mentioning or quoting from that book by the way as the only argeument you have when you use it is 'it says im right, therefore i am')
I was pointing out your quotes contradict themselves, only one can be correct, we either have choice and freewill to sin or we sin because its gods will, from what most christians say we have freewill but your quotes insist we dont, i feel you must be slightly confused to quote complete opposites and carry on insisting your right, the only proof you have that you are right is the book you constantly quote from, yet, it has also proved you wrong and even according to other christians you are wrong, surely for your religion to work we need the freewill to commit sin free of god? A freewill you insist we dont have.
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Now you are saying that the Bible contradicts itself. Which is malevolent heresy to begin with...


You are also misunderstanding me. My quote was about slavery not freewill.

20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
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Even if you did not read the verse, did you at least read my conclusion?
 
Lemming3k:

Everyone has an impression of what is right. How about this: If one would be wise, he must avoid being paralyzed, even briefly, by impressions. Wisdom is not born without understanding. To develop understanding requires that we first have knowledge, and knowledge becomes ours through observation, examination, and reflection. Therefore, we might say to those who would be wise: Chew on things for a while before you swallow them.

Impressions are important, yet we cannot live off impression. They are but a starting point. As for what we do, we should do right because we love God, not because someone tells us this is what we ought to do. I would say, just from reading your posts, that you have little time for nonsense, and want the real thing. It is yours, for sure, so enjoy. We all have our favorite verses; that is, those of us familiar with the Bible, but that which is written in our hearts is the drumbeat for our journey.

pmt
 
ROSA CONTRIBUTES: "In fact, one can learn far more from bad examples than from good examples."

pmt contributes: Learn what? Children learn by example, and statistics show they learn according to example.
 
Southstar your original quote was not to do with slavery:
'there is no such thing as randomness, bible says so'
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No randomness means everything is controlled, therefore no free will.
Now your second quote:
'Obviously sin can't be inherited from God and therefore is a result of man's rebelliousness.'
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Quote 1 - No free will.
Quote 2 - Mans rebelliousness gives rise to sin, not god, meaning we need free will away from god to sin.
Now you see what you quote doesnt match, and cannot both be true, whether it is your mistake or the bibles you decide(based on if your quotes about the bible are true/correct) but please refrain from screaming heresy when theres an obvious contradiction in what you quote, i pointed out your mistake, if it is a mistake in the bible too then so be it.
 
I would say, just from reading your posts, that you have little time for nonsense
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I'd say thats fairly accurate, nonsense is a waste of time, and time in this short life is precious, especially for one like me who believes this is the one chance we get and have to live it, in a way i agree with something you said but i would change it slightly for my beliefs, we should do right because we love, if we all showed compassion the world would be better, somebodys reasoning behind why they would be compassionate is not important, its if they are or not that matters.
We all have our favorite verses; that is, those of us familiar with the Bible
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Likewise those of other religions have their favorite verses, i am fairly familiar with the bible, i did once make an effort to read it.
but that which is written in our hearts is the drumbeat for our journey.
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For my life i simply have a few sensible quotes of my own to live by, live life to the full, be happy, make others happy(in a way i guess 'do unto others as you would want others to do unto you' would fit aswel, im sure all religions have a similar verse), i wish to enjoy life and i wish others to enjoy it too, the possibility it may be all they get is there and i wouldnt want people to miss out on anything.
 
As irreverent as asserting that 1+1=2 could possibly be *gasp* algebra?
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I don't know about irreverent when talking about mathematics, but 1+1=2 isn't algebra. It's addition. x + y = c, however...
 
ROSA CONTRIBUTES: "In fact, one can learn far more from bad examples than from good examples."

pmt contributes: Learn what? Children learn by example, and statistics show they learn according to example.
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Well, fire bad... for example.
 
Lemming3k said:
Southstar your original quote was not to do with slavery:

No randomness means everything is controlled, therefore no free will.
Now your second quote:

Quote 1 - No free will.
Quote 2 - Mans rebelliousness gives rise to sin, not god, meaning we need free will away from god to sin.
Now you see what you quote doesnt match, and cannot both be true, whether it is your mistake or the bibles you decide(based on if your quotes about the bible are true/correct) but please refrain from screaming heresy when theres an obvious contradiction in what you quote, i pointed out your mistake, if it is a mistake in the bible too then so be it.
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What you have provided is not the same as what I was even referring to...


Actually no randomness means nothing surprises God. God knew you were going to perform an action before you were going to. He planned accordingly to that action and if He doesn't want your actions to achieve a result, who is to stop Him?
 
In case anybody's interested I am not religious. I'm more of an agnostic. I just use phrases (or more like pseudo-phrases) from the bible to point out faults in logic. For example, "god is love" or "god is perfect", but there is so much of his creation that causes us pain and sorrow. Seems a bit of a condradiction. It's like if you have children and you create an enviroment for them to live in that is dangerous. Needlessly.

I was going to elaborate on my philosophy that by doing such innocent things as colour our grey hair or wear a whig to hide our baldness is basically saying we don't like what god created. It's different than changing the enviroment (like pmt said "tilling the soil") because we do it out of shame and vanity. We all know that vanity is a sin. If god wanted us to go bald than we should accept his design. Even women, who feel embarrassed or cheated because they have small breasts, are basically saying they are not happy at how god made their body if they go out and get implants.

Southstar...if god knew what you were going to have for supper tomorrow even though you haven't even thought about it yet and told you right now what exactly it will be, do you think you could still surprise him by choosing something different?
 
P.M. Thorne said:
ROSA CONTRIBUTES: "In fact, one can learn far more from bad examples than from good examples."

pmt contributes: Learn what? Children learn by example, and statistics show they learn according to example.
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It is simple to say that one should be disciplined, for example. But how do you learn discipline? By observing disciplined people? Yes, one can certainly learn some things about discipline from disciplined people. But only after seeing and analyzing some really undisciplined people, you get to learn what discipline is about.

You have to make mistakes or check out mistakes of others to learn something really properly.
 
wesmorris said:
Ah, I see... so my comments indicated that "I have no interest in finding out what is true"? Eh? So much for being respectful eh?
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They just showed that you don't differentiate between questions that have been answered one way and not another. I pointed out that one 'what if' isn't as good as another. I have no idea what your motives are.

RosaMagika said:
Yes, but according to you, my love is worth nothing unless I *call* it God and decide to explicitly follow Jesus.
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Your love is worth everything - more than you realize. I'm proposing that you realize what it means.
 
invert_nexus said:
I don't know about irreverent when talking about mathematics, but 1+1=2 isn't algebra. It's addition. x + y = c, however...
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Thanks... It just underlines my point. I wasn't defining "algebra", because it's a concept people are already familiar enough with. You still knew what I meant, even though the word I used wasn't "accurate". Saying God is love doesn't define Him, it describes him in terms people are familiar with.
 
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