why does god has to have a god??

geeser said:
Turtles all the way done, nothing more need be said.
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:confused:
scifes: if you cant see why a god has to have a cause, thats your failing.
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actually i see how god doesn't have to have a cause..that's the most sensible possibility to me..i consider it your strange failing to not be able to see that after i've explained it in many ways..yes i wondered about that in the beginning..but i reached my conclusion in more ways than one..it srprises me that you haven't..my only explanation for that is two things..getting used to the idea of no god..and the difficulty of giving up your belief which you pride yourself with and which you fought for for a long time...i won't ie to you..i consider all your POV as if they were my own..(not to mention that most of them i've been there done that)..but still they don't convince me..
On your reply to strangerinastrangeland, God of the gaps anyone.
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??
 
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scifes said:
i read and understood what you said..nice theory..but i find it irrelative..i also understand from what you're saying that you DO believe in gods(?)..only that they're the old advanced forms of existence which for some reason; we are more primitive than, although we're more recent..
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I see humans as being one of the species of this Galaxy (with no proof but a reasonable assumption that other species exist out there); further, I see us as being johnie-come-latelys, more advanced than some yet not anywhere near as advanced as others.

Personally, I think it's quite reasonable to assume that as there are ancient stars and solar systems in the Universe, there are equally ancient species; people who have by now evolved beyond the need for the physical body, have capabilities that we can only guess at, and would regard our species as we would regard children or neanderthals.

Further, where did our Universe come from? If it's a bud off an old tree, so to speak, what is the origin of the parent Universe? How old is its parent Universe? How far back in time does the cycle of the Universes recede, and what of the species that evolved in those earlier systems?
 
Xylene said:
I see humans as being one of the species of this Galaxy (with no proof but a reasonable assumption that other species exist out there); further, I see us as being johnie-come-latelys, more advanced than some yet not anywhere near as advanced as others.

Personally, I think it's quite reasonable to assume that as there are ancient stars and solar systems in the Universe, there are equally ancient species; people who have by now evolved beyond the need for the physical body, have capabilities that we can only guess at, and would regard our species as we would regard children or neanderthals.

Further, where did our Universe come from? If it's a bud off an old tree, so to speak, what is the origin of the parent Universe? How old is its parent Universe? How far back in time does the cycle of the Universes recede, and what of the species that evolved in those earlier systems?
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What is the need for time to be linear?

IOW just like we experience the growth and dormancy of life with influences like spring and winter, why can't this be applied to a greater sphere of affairs?
 
lightgigantic said:
What is the need for time to be linear?

IOW just like we experience the growth and dormancy of life with influences like spring and winter, why can't this be applied to a greater sphere of affairs?
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Not sure if you're agreeing with the OP. Wouldn't a greater sphere of affairs apply to a god making a god? Your saying this is or isn't plausible?
 
PsychoticEpisode said:
Not sure if you're agreeing with the OP. Wouldn't a greater sphere of affairs apply to a god making a god? Your saying this is or isn't plausible?
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IMO it's certainly plausible that the earlier, more advanced species, which had already attained the power of gods, could give later species a hand up to the same level. I tend to see the history of the Omniverse (the multiplicity of universes thru time) as being a vast heirarchy of transcendent species, all co-operating with each other to help late-arriving species to advance themselves. Also, I'm making the assumption that there is a local time-frame within each universe. I've heard some very strange things about the flow of time, admittedly--but I can't see any way for comparitively primitive species such as ourselves to step outside the time-stream, except under the most unusual circumstances.
 
PsychoticEpisode said:
Not sure if you're agreeing with the OP. Wouldn't a greater sphere of affairs apply to a god making a god? Your saying this is or isn't plausible?
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If you have a god making a god, you simply have the phenomenal world fulfilling the role of "eternal, ultimate cause".

If you have a god that transcends issues of cause an effect (what to speak of a god on whom cause and effect are dependent) you also fulfill the same requirements.

In either case, determining linear time as the ultimate net that all things must exist in is not helpful.
 
lightgigantic said:
In either case, determining linear time as the ultimate net that all things must exist in is not helpful.
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What makes non-linear time special? I can reinvent time anytime you want. The god who made the god who made God could very easily have conjured up linear time at some point. I see nothing special about whatever time you think God parades around in.
 
PsychoticEpisode said:
What makes non-linear time special? I can reinvent time anytime you want.
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cycles of time are not invention

in fact they are recognized from everyone from farmers, to menstruating women to astronomers.

The god who made the god who made God could very easily have conjured up linear time at some point. I see nothing special about whatever time you think God parades around in.
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More to the point is how linear time appears to be an imposition of our (limited) experience .... since every aspect of time has a cycle.
 
lightgigantic said:
cycles of time are not invention

in fact they are recognized from everyone from farmers, to menstruating women to astronomers.


More to the point is how linear time appears to be an imposition of our (limited) experience .... since every aspect of time has a cycle.
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How many times has God created the universe?
 
lightgigantic said:
sure

like you could term a singular point as the beginning of spring or the end of winter
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But not to be use when referencing the universe? or time itself?

The cycle of Gods... the world is due for a return to the Sun god, no? Maybe it's time to add a few, in keeping with life's cyclical nature.
 
PsychoticEpisode said:
But not to be use when referencing the universe? or time itself?
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according to the vedas time is eternal and the universe goes through (eternal) changes from manifest to dormant states (kind of like spring to winter in a place like canada )

The cycle of Gods... the world is due for a return to the Sun god, no? Maybe it's time to add a few, in keeping with life's cyclical nature.
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sure

but the idea is this pantheon of higher entities set to manage universal affairs operates under an unchanging orchestration (like a monarch has an assembly of representatives)

(IOW just like you don't have any insects in winter, you don't have any demigods during a period of universal dormancy)
 
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StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
Everything you've claimed as reason or evidence humans must have been created applies equally to whatever created them.
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scifes said:
now this is the answer i was looking for..thanks stranger..

the conclusion you mentioned is the misleading confusing wrong detour thinkers take before becoming atheists..

the term of being created is part of us humans..our logic is bounded there..

proof that our logic doesn't extend to our creator is because humans don't create life..it's illogical..

so what stops our logic's failure to explain life creation to also fail to explain the need of being created??

make it simple.. it couldn't have been a human who "created" the first human (or it's evolving counterpat for all that matters).. we know that because we humans can't give life..we don't fully understand it ourselves... so if the un-human who created us can give life..maybe he also doesn't need someone to give it to him..it's just that we don't know anything definite about who created us..so denying or assumin anything based on our rules isn't right...

tell me you understand..i tried to put it as simple as possible..
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Circular unreasoning.
I understand. You believe it so it must be true.

It couldn't have been a god who "created" the first human (or it's evolving counterpat for all that matters).. we know that because gods can't give life.
Proof that your illogic doesn't extend to gods is because gods don't create life.
We don't know as much as we'd like of how life & the universe came to be..so denying or assumin anything based on your rules isn't right.
I tried to put this as simple as you did.
 
scifes said:
:confused:
actually i see how god doesn't have to have a cause..that's the most sensible possibility to me..i consider it your strange failing to not be able to see that after i've explained it in many ways..yes i wondered about that in the beginning..but i reached my conclusion in more ways than one..it srprises me that you haven't..my only explanation for that is two things..getting used to the idea of no god..and the difficulty of giving up your belief which you pride yourself with and which you fought for for a long time...i won't ie to you..i consider all your POV as if they were my own..(not to mention that most of them i've been there done that)..but still they don't convince me..

??
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You haven't explained anything.
 
lightgigantic said:
If you have a god making a god, you simply have the phenomenal world fulfilling the role of "eternal, ultimate cause".

If you have a god that transcends issues of cause an effect (what to speak of a god on whom cause and effect are dependent) you also fulfill the same requirements.

In either case, determining linear time as the ultimate net that all things must exist in is not helpful.
Click to expand...


StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
Everything you've claimed as reason or evidence humans must have been created applies equally to whatever created them.
Click to expand...


Assuming there is time which is not linear is not helpful.
In either case, you are not helpful.


WHO doesn't have insects in Winter???
 
StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
Assuming there is time which is not linear is not helpful.
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Its not clear how seasons, days, months, years, etc are not helpful




WHO doesn't have insects in Winter???
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errr ..... yeah

don't forget the mosquito repellent
images


:crazy:
 
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