Why does God allow that there is such a mess when it comes to theism?

[NMSquirrel]

dunno which verses..but somewhere it says that the spiritual leaders have more of that responsibility to where they lead us..

not to use that as an excuse though..we are responsible for our own descisions..if a spiritual leader tells you to do something wrong,you are responsible if you choose to act on it.
do not do it just because the pastor told you to..these are the 'do as your told' type ppl who want others to make the descisions for them so they dont have to be responsible if it goes to shit..

looking at history..i wonder..would their be any laws if god were not around?
all laws began as gods laws, humanity has added to those laws..

mmm.dinner..cu

 

[Adstar]

What are the intentions of the ones making the rules?

If someone makes a rule the only tool he has to enforce it is to punish anyone that breaks it. Making rules means you want to control people and take away part of their freedom.

Not necessarily. You can make a wise rule with a desire to try to protect people from themselves. But again freedom of choice does not negate the consequence of that choice.

If you look at the severity of punishments you can work out how much the entity that makes them wants people to adhere to its rules.
Do you know of a more severe punishment than hell?

Yeah the Lake of Fire, which i believe is different then Hell. But again as a Christian i do not believe that adherence to rules saves one from the Lake of Fire because all fall short of adhering to the rules. Jesus saves us from the lake of Fire because of His righteousness.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

The biased way you phrase the question pre-judges the answer. Obviously, if someone is a murderer then they have have already broken the rule.
How about "Do the rules against murder stop potential murderERs from killing others?"

I would say very few people are dissuaded from killing others because of the laws stating that people cannot kill. If people want to kill another person and are concerned by the rule they will simply put more effort in concealing their act. The law does not stop their free will decision to kill another person.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Enmos]

Not necessarily. You can make a wise rule with a desire to try to protect people from themselves. But again freedom of choice does not negate the consequence of that choice.

Bull. If the rulemaker wants freedom of choice he wouldn't set a punishment for anyone breaking his rules. He would advise against something, not make rules against something with a punishment as a consequence of breaking them.

Yeah the Lake of Fire, which i believe is different then Hell.

Fine, the lake of fire then.

But again as a Christian i do not believe that adherence to rules saves one from the Lake of Fire because all fall short of adhering to the rules. Jesus saves us from the lake of Fire because of His righteousness.

Great logic there!

 

[Enmos]

The law does not stop their free will decision to kill another person.

Even if it does not effectively result in stopping "their free will decision to kill another person", the intent is still to do so.
Again, the punishment is there to deter someone from making the wrong decision.
What do you propose lawmakers have to do to cull peoples 'free will decision' to kill another person?

 

[Adstar]

Bull. If the rulemaker wants freedom of choice he wouldn't set a punishment for anyone breaking his rules. He would advise against something, not make rules against something with a punishment as a consequence of breaking them.

Then you believe in freedom of choice without consequence. You believe in a fairy tale world that does not exist. talk about bull.

But again as a Christian i do not believe that adherence to rules saves one from the Lake of Fire because all fall short of adhering to the rules. Jesus saves us from the lake of Fire because of His righteousness.

Great logic there!

Yes, Awesome and wonderful. Reject it at your own eternal Peril.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Enmos]

Then you believe in freedom of choice without consequence. You believe in a fairy tale world that does not exist. talk about bull.

Wtf? No, I don't. Have you been reading my posts??

Yes, Awesome and wonderful. Reject it at your own eternal Peril.

Feel free to explain the logic in the last section of post 22.

 

[Adstar]

Even if it does not effectively result in stopping "their free will decision to kill another person", the intent is still to do so.

That’s right. And to God the very desire to kill another is the same as actually doing it.

Again, the punishment is there to deter someone from making the wrong decision.

That may be the intention of worldly authorities but it actual fact the main purpose it serves is to provide vengeance against the murderer to the loved ones of the victim/s

What do you propose lawmakers have to do to cull peoples 'free will decision' to kill another person?

They can do nothing. Noting they have ever done has stopped murder from happening and nothing they will ever do will stop it. Because peoples free will is far more powerful then the laws and punishments.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Enmos]

One more time:
Setting punishments as a consequences of breaking rules is an attempt at culling peoples freedom of choice regarding the issues the rules cover.
It's about the intent of the rulemakers, not about whether or not they succeed.

 

[Adstar]

Wtf? No, I don't. Have you been reading my posts??


Feel free to explain the logic in the last section of post 22.

You are saying that it Gods sets laws and it is our adherence to those laws that prevents us from being cast into the lake of fire.

I say No. It is not sin that causes one to be cast into the Lake of Fire but the rejection of Gods offer of forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus that causes one to be cast into the Lake of Fire.

You conform to the religions of this world view of God, sitting up there with a ledger with ticks and X’es against peoples names tallying all their good deeds against their bad deeds and in the end deciding their eternal destinations on the score. That’s not the God of Abraham but a god created by the thoughts of men.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Enmos]

That may be the intention of worldly authorities...

Yes. And now, what does God intent to do by setting punishments?

 

[Enmos]

You are saying that it Gods sets laws and it is our adherence to those laws that prevents us from being cast into the lake of fire.

I say No. It is not sin that causes one to be cast into the Lake of Fire but the rejection of Gods offer of forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus that causes one to be cast into the Lake of Fire.

So the rule is:
Thou shalt not reject Gods offer of forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus.

Punishment if you fail:
Lake of Fire, for eternity.



Wouldn't you consider breaking that rule to be a sin? God certainly seems to think so.

 

[Enmos]

Do you want a cookie?
No?
BURN!

 

[Adstar]

So the rule is:
Thou shalt not reject Gods offer of forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus.

Punishment if you fail:
Lake of Fire, for eternity.

Yep you got it.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Enmos]

So the rule is:
Thou shalt not reject Gods offer of forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus.

Punishment if you fail:
Lake of Fire, for eternity.



Wouldn't you consider breaking that rule to be a sin? God certainly seems to think so.

Yep you got it.

See again what I originally responded to:

god allows us to make our own choices..

So you say you really have a choice in the following situation:

In the middle of the night a group of heavily armed men come to your door.
One of the men says, "We've come to offer you this wonderful steamy turd."
To which you respond, "No, thank you," and you close the door.
The men then kick down your door, force themselves into your house and pull out their guns and rifles while one holds a knife to your throat.
One of them says, "You will accept our offer to you or you'll never see the light of day again. It's your choice."


Some choice huh? And the punishment is meek in comparison with your beloved Lake of fire.
The men do not want you to have much of a choice. In fact, they try to keep the chance of you rejecting their offer as low as possible by threatening with a hefty punishment.
God is exactly like this. He wants you to accept his "offer of forgiveness through the Messiah Jesus", and adds that if you don't you will be thrown into the lake of fire to burn for eternity.
The bully doesn't want you to have a choice, he wants you to do his bidding. Or else.

 

[Doreen]

I mean that the distress I feel at the thought of raped babies is minimum in comparison to the distress I feel at the thought that it is love that God tortures many of His beloved children in hell for all eternity.

I never use an emoticon without irony. Not for a moment did I think you lacked compassion.

 

[Lori_7]

One more time:
Setting punishments as a consequences of breaking rules is an attempt at culling peoples freedom of choice regarding the issues the rules cover.
It's about the intent of the rulemakers, not about whether or not they succeed.

but when you're talking about god and creation (life, existence), your implications regarding freedom would require us each to create our own universe and live in it alone. who determines the consequences of your actions in life? it's certainly not you. and it goes way beyond rulemakers and their rules here in our society. there are consequences to our actions as a society that the society doesn't determine as well. for example, we may wish that we could pollute the earth and not get sick or diminish our quality of life in other ways, but that's never going to happen. right?

 

[heart]

wonder why you feel that it is necessary for the Biblical God to have a consequence of eternal torment? what purpose does eternal torment serve?

 

[Enmos]

but when you're talking about god and creation (life, existence), your implications regarding freedom would require us each to create our own universe and live in it alone.

I don't see why.

who determines the consequences of your actions in life? it's certainly not you.

Why not me? I can see consequences of my actions. Granted, not always..
I don't see what point you are trying to make.

and it goes way beyond rulemakers and their rules here in our society. there are consequences to our actions as a society that the society doesn't determine as well.

Again, I don't see the point you are making. Maybe you should read back and see what my posts are replies to.

for example, we may wish that we could pollute the earth and not get sick or diminish our quality of life in other ways, but that's never going to happen. right?

I can't remember you being so human-centered. If a guy makes a campfire in his living room and the house burns down killing him. I don't feel sorry for him, I feel sorry for the cockroaches.

 

[joepistole]

I don't have an issue with raped babies.

I have an issue with theists, and with theisms, and with the different (supposed?) processes of getting to know God.


So my questions are:

Why does God allow that there is such a mess when it comes to theism?

Why does God allow that there are so many traditions which claim to have the monopoly on the truth about God?

Why does God allow that it is so difficult to get to know the truth about God?

Why does God allow that individuals are in tormenting situations where it looks like it is up to the individual to decide which religious path to choose, at the threat of choosing the wrong one?

Why does God allow that pretty much anyone can make (seemingly?) objective claims about God, whereby many of these claims are mutually exclusive?

Why does God allow that there are Christians who want us to believe that "love" and "eternal torture" fit together and make perfect sense together?

Why does God allow that cruelty and insanity happen in His name?

Why does God allow that so many people are so insecure about Him?

I suppose you could say he had a bad hair day or perhaps he just wanted to play some practical jokes.

But I think that the concept of God is beyond human understanding. And that is perhaps why there are so many different religions...all a seperate path toward God. We humans tend to get wrapped up too much in the small things and tend to pass over the big things.

And as for the trials of life, they can teach us some things if we are wise enough to learn.