Why do we need a God?

Do we need [there to be] God?


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God was simply playing the role of a Son, and being that He's omnipotent and omniscient, I don't see how any references to Himself in other roles, forms or locations presents a problem.

So God produced, directed and enacted a crucifixion of Himself?

As long as we go with how God "gave His only begotten son," the crucifixion makes sense, within the bounds of a sacrifice / scapegoat mentality.

But the idea that God took on a body and played the role of his own son ... that just makes it all very difficult to take seriously.
God loves us all so much that he killed himself for us??
 
@wynn --

But the idea that God took on a body and played the role of his own son ... that just makes it all very difficult to take seriously.

But that is quite clearly what the "mystery" of the Trinity states.
 
@wynn --

Irony? Where? These aren't my conclusions, they're the result of thousands of years of christian theology.
 
@wynn --

Why don't you actually go study christian theology before you presume to understand it.
 
And yet Christian theology teaches that Jesus is the son of God.

Incomplete. Christian theology teaches that the son of God is God Himself.

"But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom." - Hebrews 1:8


Read the whole chapter. This is God Himself speaking.

If Jesus is the son, and a son is secondary to his father, then according to Christian theology, Jesus has indeed been brought into existence by "something more primary."

Wrong again.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." - Revelation 22:13

Read the whole chapter. This is Jesus Himself speaking.

I can go on providing passages like this for quite some time.
 
But the idea that God took on a body and played the role of his own son ... that just makes it all very difficult to take seriously.
God loves us all so much that he killed himself for us??

You haven't been listening. The sacrifice that God made for us in bodily form is not only an act of love, but a necessary component of the mechanics of salvation. In order to eventually become one with His perfection, our own imperfections need to be washed away. After all, if you add imperfection to perfection, what do you get? Imperfection of course.

One of the reasons that some people don't understand this is because to them, the whole thing seems rather contrived. But what you're supposed to understand is that in the transcendental realm of God (not that God exists within this realm, rather He is the very quality of it), everything necessarily operates according to His nature. In other words, if you were to try to devise a 'theory' that explained the 'laws' that operate there with respect to things like salvation, love and sacrifice would be among the most fundamental. Therefore any relationship that God has with man also operates according to those laws.
 
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Again, sure, but the two comments of yours I quoted earlier (and there are more) suggest that you believe to have certainty about what all of theism is and isn't.

I don't have certainty about what all of theism is and isn't anymore than you have certainty about what all of theism is and isn't.

What I can do, legitimately, is speak about the reliability of the sort of epistemology that is typically prescribed by religious people for the purposes of evaluating religious claims, and that's essentially what I am doing here.

And if I can't, then neither can you.
 
Jesus was the basis for salvation before the world was even created. His sacrifice is a critical component of the transcendental 'mechanics' of salvation, so to speak. Like all qualities of God, this is 'actual', and not merely dependent on the state of one's knowledge with respect to it.

In other words, the actual mechanics of salvation should not be confused with accepting God's grace. One is about the quality of God, and the other is about the quality of what is in one's heart.

The thing to remember is that if the correct qualities are in one's heart, they are in God's grace regardless of time or circumstance. This also makes them the type of person who would recognize Jesus for who He is when exposed to His message. This is why we can say that anyone who doesn't, does not have the correct qualities in their heart, and is also an example of the sort of person who wouldn't have been within God's grace regardless of time or circumstance.

You haven't been listening. The sacrifice that God made for us in bodily form is not only an act of love, but a necessary component of the mechanics of salvation. In order to eventually become one with His perfection, our own imperfections need to be washed away.

One of the reasons that some people don't understand this is because to them, the whole thing seems rather contrived. But what you're supposed to understand is that in the transcendental realm of God (not that God exists within this realm, rather He is the very quality of it), everything operates according to His nature. In other words, if you were to try to devise a 'theory' that explained the 'laws' that operate there with respect to things like salvation, love and sacrifice would be among the most fundamental. Therefore any relationship that God has with man also operates according to those laws.

And this is where fideism comes in. First of all, to be sure, we can talk of fideism only in relation to a particular person, when the person deems that in order to do right in God's eyes, they have to do things that they find repugnant, contrary to their common sense.

As I have already communicated, the Christian perspective makes no sense to me, I even find it repugnant. Yet the Christian continues to pounce in on the issue, expecting me to give up my moral standards and act against them. The Christian here finds it reasonable, acceptable to expect other people to give up everything that is dear to them. That is abuse.


However, how about if we take 1 Cor. 10:13 at its word:

For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not adjusted and adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently.
(Amplified Bible - Lockman)

No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
(NIV - IBS)


1 Corinthians 10:13
New International Version (NIV)

13 No temptation[a] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[c] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

Footnotes:
1 Corinthians 10:13 The Greek for temptation and tempted can also mean testing and tested.
1 Corinthians 10:13 The Greek for temptation and tempted can also mean testing and tested.
1 Corinthians 10:13 The Greek for temptation and tempted can also mean testing and tested.



So if God can be trusted not to test us beyond our capacity - then why would there ever be a time when we would need to dismiss our better judgment and instead act in blind faith and on principles that we find repugnant?
 
I don't have certainty about what all of theism is and isn't anymore than you have certainty about what all of theism is and isn't.

What I can do, legitimately, is speak about the reliability of the sort of epistemology that is typically prescribed by religious people for the purposes of evaluating religious claims, and that's essentially what I am doing here.

And if I can't, then neither can you.

I think that the problem is that you are trying to objectively analyze something that is necessarily subjective/personal.

And by "subjective/personal" I mean that it is a matter of a person's application, and that only after applying oneself can one come to pertinent realizations.

It seems to me that your basic argument is that religion is basically self-referential, circular, and that therefore, it can never be really tested, and as such, should be dismissed from being a valid way of approaching issues of truth.
 
And this is where fideism comes in...

Are you sure you want to do this? Earlier in this thread I made an attempt to end this back and forth between us on issues of Christian doctrine out of a genuine respect for you and your own particular circumstances. What I wanted to do here is to play the role of a fundamentalist Christian for the purposes of demonstrating that a defense of the theology can be mounted. What I don't want to do is play the role of pointing out your flaws according to such a viewpoint, and that's what responding to your comments would require me to do.
 
Like I said, IRL, I would not discuss these things with a Christian. I've come to a point where I don't seem particularly bothered by them at all anymore.
I am participating here mostly because the triangle between myself, you and LG has given some interesting chemistry.

I appreciate your concern for me here. But it seems to me it is actually you who should be the recipient here.
 
It seems to me that your basic argument is that religion is basically self-referential, circular, and that therefore, it can never be really tested, and as such, should be dismissed from being a valid way of approaching issues of truth.

  • Person A says that a particular rock is black, that this is an objective fact and not merely a matter of subjective perception, and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
  • Person B says that the same rock is white, that this is an objective fact and not merely a matter of subjective perception, and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
  • Person C says that the rock is both white and black simultaneously (somehow), that this is an objective fact, and that anyone who insists that such a position is incorrect is objectively wrong.
  • Person D says that all of the above positions are equally correct (somehow), and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.

Each position is in opposition to every other, even the position that maintains that all other positions are correct.
 
  • Person A says that a particular rock is black, that this is an objective fact and not merely a matter of subjective perception, and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
  • Person B says that the same rock is white, that this is an objective fact and not merely a matter of subjective perception, and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
  • Person C says that the rock is both white and black simultaneously (somehow), that this is an objective fact, and that anyone who insists that such a position is incorrect is objectively wrong.
  • Person D says that all of the above positions are equally correct (somehow), and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.

Each position is in opposition to every other, even the position that maintains that all other positions are correct.

At the risk of sounding glib - While our molars rot.

In psychology, a general approach to resolving double binds is to address the context they appear in.

For the philosophically inclined, this tends to be seen as a cop-out, an excuse not to address the problem as proposed.

But as I already noted earlier, each instance of communication is also an instance where one manifests one's actual beliefs - and that one's conduct can speak of different values than the ones one professes. (A blatant example are people who with great intolerance promote tolerance.)


Strictly speaking, I suppose there indeed may be people for whom it is a matter of life and death to resolve things like

  • Person A says that a particular rock is black, that this is an objective fact and not merely a matter of subjective perception, and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
  • Person B says that the same rock is white, that this is an objective fact and not merely a matter of subjective perception, and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
  • Person C says that the rock is both white and black simultaneously (somehow), that this is an objective fact, and that anyone who insists that such a position is incorrect is objectively wrong.
  • Person D says that all of the above positions are equally correct (somehow), and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.

Each position is in opposition to every other, even the position that maintains that all other positions are correct.

and in terms in which they are proposed. For example, people who do philosophy for a living would be such people.

Everyone else has other concerns that are more pressing - the proverbial rotting molars.

By this, I don't mean to belittle philosophy or divert attention. There is no doubt that even as a philosophical lay, one may be keenly aware of profound philosophical problems and feel a strong need to resolve them. But one would do best to do so within one's means.

I think we often get tangled up in trying to solve a problem on a level that is beyond our grasp or affordability.
 
  • Person A says that a particular rock is black, that this is an objective fact and not merely a matter of subjective perception, and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
  • Person B says that the same rock is white, that this is an objective fact and not merely a matter of subjective perception, and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.
  • Person C says that the rock is both white and black simultaneously (somehow), that this is an objective fact, and that anyone who insists that such a position is incorrect is objectively wrong.
  • Person D says that all of the above positions are equally correct (somehow), and that anyone who says otherwise is objectively wrong.

Each position is in opposition to every other, even the position that maintains that all other positions are correct.

There is a Zen question:

What do you do when nothing works?
 
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