Why do some people consider themselves "atheist"?

[Sarkus]

You are wrong we are born not atheist but agnostic, we don't know anything.

We are born both atheist (implicit lack of belief in God) and agnostic (weak agnosticism / personal ignorance, rather than the strong agnosticism that holds that God is unknowable).

It is not always an "either / or" with regard agnosticism and atheism.

 

[Arioch]

@arauca --

You are forgetting, your kind of thinking is a minority

And you're forgetting that that is absolutely irrelevant as to whether or not I'm right.

Can you imagine if all humanity would be nonbeliever and with low education.

Well, since atheists, agnostics, and other nonreligious individuals tend to behave better than their religious counterparts I imagine that the status quo would probably be quite improved. Also, since religiosity and education level have been inversely correlated in numerous studies I suspect that the education situation might be improved as well.

All in all I really don't think that it could hurt, you gain nothing from religion that I can't gain elsewhere at a cheaper cost.

@river --

don't agree

Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant, it is the truth. We are born with no knowledge of, and therefore no belief in any god or gods or goddesses or anything at all really(there are no infant UFO cranks or truthers, nothing like that). We don't the capability for it when we're born, we all lack the complex mental(hell, the theory of mind, which is required for a belief in god, doesn't develop in humans until around three or four years of age) and social underpinnings required for a belief in god, ergo atheism is the default state that all infants fall into.

Again, none of this will change whether you agree with it or not, reality can be rather infuriating that way.

the problem comes for me by researching a little of our ancient past I have across knowledge that suggests that things are a little more complicated than things appear

No, the "problem" is that there is a frighteningly large percentage of our planet's population that are not only still enthralled to various barbaric bronze age texts, but that they are willingly enthralled to them and a large number of them are willing to fight it out amongst all the rest to see who is "right".

This same percentage also tends to be the same percentage as the least educated among us, go figure.

while we are in most ways are very sophisticated society , science etc

so was are ancient past

Anything they can do, we can do better(and very likely faster too). And never forget that even our grade school students know things that the wisest ancients asserted(by fiat) would never be known. We know things about the universe that would seem like magic to the ancients, and we can do things that would likely make them fall down and worship us as gods. No, we shouldn't throw away what wisdom the ancients managed to glean, but we sure as hell have discovered innumerable things since then and we've proven the ancients wrong on more than one occasion.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Can you imagine if all humanity would be nonbeliever and with low education.

WTF do those two have to do with each other?
Can YOU imagine if all humanity were believers and with a low education? :shrug:

 

[wynn]

Delusion usually comes from some sort of imbalance in the brain. It could be caused by infections, increased cranial pressure putting an extra squeeze on the brain, in fact any number of things(including some of our brains completely natural functions that it performs daily, such as the creation of false memories and the editing of real ones).

And you are above and beyond all that, of course.

 

[wynn]

Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant, it is the truth.

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.

 

[spidergoat]

So much for the God-gene camp!

So where do supernaturalism or theism come from?

If they are not in the DNA, if they are not real/true, where do they come from?
Delusion? And where does delusion come from?

Perhaps from the evolved human or primate trait to seek the agent for any event. In nature, there almost always is one, and it could be predator or prey, both would have been important.

 

[spidergoat]

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.

It's fundamentalist to say that people are born with no inherent belief in God?

 

[wynn]

It's fundamentalist to say that people are born with no inherent belief in God?

Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant, it is the truth.


It's easy enough to get a man out of Southern Baptism, but to get the Southern Baptism out of a man ...

 

[GeoffP]

Why do some people consider themselves "atheist"?


"Atheism" is a concept that derives its meaning and relevance from the concept "theism."
Without "theism," there can be no "atheism."
"Atheism" is a term that originated among theists to describe those who were without gods.

Those who consider themselves "atheists" thus believe that theism is real and relevant enough to form some kind of opposition to it, for purposes of identification.

Or, rather, that theology is unreal and irrelevant enough to form some kind of dissociation with it, for purposes of maintaining their sanity.

 

[GeoffP]

Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant, it is the truth.

What is this truth to which you are referring?

It's easy enough to get a man out of Southern Baptism, but to get the Southern Baptism out of a man ...

...would be easier if he hadn't been taught Southern Baptism all his adolescent life and beyond, n'est-ce pas?.

Good work fighting the good fight against spidergoat's kind of fundamentalism. Only the weeded garden survives.

 

[wynn]

Or, rather, that theology is unreal and irrelevant enough to form some kind of dissociation with it, for purposes of maintaining their sanity.

I assume you have carefully studied and practiced all the major world's religions.

I assume you have carefully studied the Bible, The Koran, the Bhagavad-Gita and the Pali Canon, practiced accordingly, and then concluded that they are not able to deliver what they promise.

Is that so?

 

[wynn]

What is this truth to which you are referring?

It's from Arioch's post above.

...would be easier if he hadn't been taught Southern Baptism all his adolescent life and beyond, n'est-ce pas?.

I don't know. Would it?
What would he be without his fundamentalist attitude? What would he have to say?

 

[GeoffP]

Ad nihilio

I assume you have carefully studied and practiced all the major world's religions.

I assume you have carefully studied the Bible, The Koran, the Bhagavad-Gita and the Pali Canon, practiced accordingly, and then concluded that they are not able to deliver what they promise.

Is that so?

Indeed.

I don't know. Would it?

Yes. It would.

What would he be without his fundamentalist attitude? What would he have to say?

Probably something more cogent than the residue of brainwashing, anyway.

 

[wynn]

Indeed.

Oh.

Well, then we are not epistemic peers and there isn't really anything to discuss.

Unless you wish to bring me up to your level?

 

[Arioch]

@wynn --

And you are above and beyond all that, of course.

Nope, I'm a squishy human like the rest of you(excepting Mister, of course, who is a Reptilian), which means that I'm just as subject to delusions, on average, as everyone else is. Of course, I do have some tools in my arsenal that help protect me from latching on to them, such as a rather strict burden of proof, especially for things that I want to be true. Another tool is that of peer review and a rather vehement aversion to arguments from personal incredulity.

The tools of bullshit detection are, of course, available to everyone who wants to use them, but those like myself seem to be in the minority in that we actually prefer to use them. Of course, all of this is entirely irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Spoken like a true fundamentalist.

Nope, and nice try equating me to yourself and others, but it's not going to work. I said what I said because it's true, and tautologically true too. Reality is reality, regardless of what we think of it or whether we even know that it's happening, and careful experimentation over thousands of years has revealed that reality doesn't change itself to suit our wishes and desires, and it especially doesn't change to fit what we believe.

And what I said is true, it's a biological fact. Human infants are simply physically incapable of forming theistic beliefs of any kind, they lack the physiological, sociological, and psychological prerequisites for such beliefs. The closest you can come to saying that infants have theistic beliefs is that they, like all humans, have agency detection software in their brains, though it's hardly operating at capacity when they're born(that takes decades and sometimes never happens).

And yeah, you're probably going to say that I can't know that, that I don't know what's in the mind of another person(which can only barely be called a person from a mental standpoint). But that's the great thing about this fact, it means that I don't need to know every thought in every infant's head to know that they can't believe in god. Biologically they lack the requirements for such a belief therefore they do not have such a belief.

Biology is such a wonderful thing.

 

[GeoffP]

Oh.

Well, then we are not epistemic peers and there isn't really anything to discuss.

Unless you wish to bring me up to your level?

I just did. Now: you presume people are born with some kind of natural belief in God?

It's fundamentalist to say that people are born with no inherent belief in God?

Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant, it is the truth.


It's easy enough to get a man out of Southern Baptism, but to get the Southern Baptism out of a man ...

Do you realize that religion is taught, rather than inherent?

 

[Arioch]

Wait, who was raised Southern Baptist?

 

[wynn]

Unless you wish to bring me up to your level?

I just did.

I can't breathe, the air is so thin.

Now: you presume people are born with some kind of natural belief in God?

A person might not be born with specifically Christian beliefs, or specifically Jewish beliefs etc., but we all seem to have, for example, notions of hierarchy, meaning and worth deeply ingrained into us.
Generally, we all have a sense that not all things are equal, that some things are better than others, and we all seek meaning.

Theism as generally known in established religious traditions, works out those deeply ingrained notions in more detail.

Do you realize that religion is taught, rather than inherent?

Some of it may be taught, sure. Much is just discovered, in a person's own life.

 

[wynn]

Wait, who was raised Southern Baptist?

You certainly sound like one.

 

[GeoffP]

I can't breathe, the air is so thin.

I can tell. Come down off your mountain.

A person might not be born with specifically Christian beliefs, or specifically Jewish beliefs etc., but we all seem to have, for example, notions of hierarchy, meaning and worth deeply ingrained into us.
Generally, we all have a sense that not all things are equal, that some things are better than others, and we all seek meaning.

Theism as generally known in established religious traditions, works out those deeply ingrained notions in more detail.

Along a single axis, however.