Why do some Christians Proselytise ?

[Grandtheftcow]

We are told to be "fisher's of men". I do just that. When most guys ask me out, I ask them about their faith. It usually ends up very well....

I always found it odd that Christians place so much importance on religious affiliation. I've had potential girlfriends break down and cry when they found out I wasn't Christian. They really liked me but they just couldn't get past that one thing. They're odd people.

 

[Myles]

I always found it odd that Christians place so much importance on religious affiliation. I've had potential girlfriends break down and cry when they found out I wasn't Christian. They really liked me but they just couldn't get past that one thing. They're odd people.

The problem you refer to is by no means confined to Christians. Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs discourage " marrying out" Having said that, the Christian position is more complicated than that of the others. A Catholic is discouraged from marrying a Protestant, A Jehovah's witness will tend to marry another and so on. Look at the number of denominations and you'll get an inkling of the problem. Even the peace-loving, God-fearing Amish will reject a member who marries out.

The essential problem is that each denomination thinks all the others are wrong.

 

[Till Eulenspiegel]

I don't think it is always a question of thinking all other denominations are wrong. The core of Christianity is a belief in the Triune God and those who believe that are, according to most Christians, not wrong.

In my opinion Christians tend to marry others of their own particular sect of Christianity more for comfort reasons than anything else. It is more comfortable when beliefs are shared. I am Lutheran and my wife is Roman Catholic. While I don't believe exactly as she does I don't think she is 'wrong'. I would prefer that she be Lutheran so that we could go to church together on Sunday mornings rather than each of us going to a different church but each of us is most comfortable with our own sect and neither of us is about to change or religion.

 

[ashura]

I'm afraid I'm not understanding Till. Why exactly is it that you don't believe exactly as she does if you don't think she's wrong?

 

[nova900]

The core of Christianity is a belief in the Triune God and those who believe that are, according to most Christians, not wrong.

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Actually, the trinity concept is an old one that predates the OT and NT by thousands of years. It runs throughout the entire mythology of the Ancient Egyptians. It is definetely pagan in origin and not exclusive to the Bible.

 

[Till Eulenspiegel]

Ashura,

The differences between what my wife believes and what I believe do not involve the central core of our beliefs, the belief in a Triune God with Jesus Christ as the redeemer of mankind. Everything else is peripheral. Roman Catholics believe saints can intercede between man and God, I don't believe I need anyone to intercede for me. Roman Catholics believe in more sacraments than I do. A Roman Catholic mass is more formal than a Lutheran service. The heirarchy of the Roman Catholic Church from Pope to Cardinals to Archbishops, Bishops and Priests is different from the heirarchy of the Lutheran Church.

While these differences make me less comfortable attending her church than attending mine they are not extreme enough to make her religion wrong. They are outward trappings not core belief.


Nova,
I never claimed the concept of a trinity was exclusive to Christianity. The trinity of the other religions you mentioned is not the same as that of The Bible. Most of those trinities consisted of a wife, husband and child, usually a son. The members of the trinity were actually seperate gods who were closely related. The Triune God of Christianity is a single God in three persons, not three seperate gods. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost are the same God in three aspects not three seperate gods.

There are parallels found among many religions, flood stories, death and rebirth, redemption, etc.. I don't deny any of that. My personal belief system is that the Christian God is the true God and that the parallels exist because of a yearning of man to answers to certain universal questions and fears. Since this is a personal belief I cannot make you or anyone else share it with me. You may believe differently and I respect you and your right to do so. What I believe is simply that, What I believe.

 

[ashura]

Ashura,

The differences between what my wife believes and what I believe do not involve the central core of our beliefs, the belief in a Triune God with Jesus Christ as the redeemer of mankind. Everything else is peripheral. Roman Catholics believe saints can intercede between man and God, I don't believe I need anyone to intercede for me. Roman Catholics believe in more sacraments than I do. A Roman Catholic mass is more formal than a Lutheran service. The heirarchy of the Roman Catholic Church from Pope to Cardinals to Archbishops, Bishops and Priests is different from the heirarchy of the Lutheran Church.

While these differences make me less comfortable attending her church than attending mine they are not extreme enough to make her religion wrong. They are outward trappings not core belief.

I'm still not following. Isn't it those different peripherals that make her religion wrong? It's like a test, sure she got 90% of the questions right and she did well... but 10% was still wrong. At least, that's how I'm seeing it.

 

[Grantywanty]

I'm still not following. Isn't it those different peripherals that make her religion wrong? It's like a test, sure she got 90% of the questions right and she did well... but 10% was still wrong. At least, that's how I'm seeing it.

While many monotheists (especially) see religion choice as a right wrong thing, I have encountered people from most of the major religions who have a great deal of respect for other religions. In India I met several teachers in various Hindu traditions who said that the various religions were different routes to God and spoke with great affection about Jesus. I've met Buddhist monks who thought that the monotheisms were just peachy - I tried to push on the issue of God and they kept telling me not to get to tied to words. I've met both practicing Christians and Jews at Western Buddhist retreats. I've met members of indigenous groups who had combined portions of pre-colonial religions with Christianity. I've spoken with Muslims who did not regard me - a pagan - as an infidel because I was a 'good' person and who also got along well with other kinds of monotheists. I have seen a great deal of respect between diverse pagans, indiginous religious people, Wiccans etc. Despite different stories, sets of metaphors and names for various 'entities'.

Sure, there are a lot of religious people who think their path is the only path, perhaps the majority. Majorities can have aweful tendencies. Look at their taste in clothes, music and food.

 

[ashura]

But respect isn't tied to a religion being thought to be right or wrong. I'm sure Till has a great amount of respect for his wife and her beliefs. He can still think some of them are wrong though. I'm sure a number of the different religious people you spoke to considered you to be wrong on certain religious aspects as well. Again, didnt affect the respect.

 

[Grantywanty]

But respect isn't tied to a religion being thought to be right or wrong. I'm sure Till has a great amount of respect for his wife and her beliefs. He can still think some of them are wrong though. I'm sure a number of the different religious people you spoke to considered you to be wrong on certain religious aspects as well. Again, didnt affect the respect.

No, you're not correct. Many of these people used the phrase 'many paths to God.' Others whose religions were not monotheistic, or even theistic in the case of Buddhists, made it quite clear they did not consider me wrong in my choices and practices.

Of course there are people who do think they follow the one truth path and all others are wrong. Many people who have meditated a lot, or contemplated a lot or had many shamanistic experiences see the world(s) in more nuanced ways. They understand that many texts include metaphors for experiences that the metaphors are there to aid in reaching certain experiences and not as hard and fast descriptions worth going to war over or even judging another person's as wrong.

There are a lot of exceptions to the rule you are putting forward.

 

[ashura]

No, you're not correct. Many of these people used the phrase 'many paths to God.' Others whose religions were not monotheistic, or even theistic in the case of Buddhists, made it quite clear they did not consider me wrong in my choices and practices.

Of course there are people who do think they follow the one truth path and all others are wrong. Many people who have meditated a lot, or contemplated a lot or had many shamanistic experiences see the world(s) in more nuanced ways. They understand that many texts include metaphors for experiences that the metaphors are there to aid in reaching certain experiences and not as hard and fast descriptions worth going to war over or even judging another person's as wrong.

There are a lot of exceptions to the rule you are putting forward.

We seem to be miscommunicating. What rule do you think I'm putting forward?

 

[Grantywanty]

Well, it seemed like
if there are different practices between two religions the participants must view the followers of another religion as wrong-to some degree.
If that's not what you meant, my apologies.
If it is what you meant, I wanted to point out that it is not my experience as a rule.

 

[Till Eulenspiegel]

Ashura,

Both Roman catholics and Lutherans believe in the Triune God and that God the Father sent his only begotten son to die and atone for the sins of mankind. That is all that is necessary, in my opinion to make one a Christian. All the rest is trappings.


As for only Christians getting into heaven, I don't know because I cannot know what God will do. I would not presume to tell him or to even suggest to him just who he should and should not allow into heaven. Since I don't know who will eventually get into heaven I live my life on the premise that everyone will. It isn't my decision to make.

 

[ashura]

Well, it seemed like
if there are different practices between two religions the participants must view the followers of another religion as wrong-to some degree.
If that's not what you meant, my apologies.
If it is what you meant, I wanted to point out that it is not my experience as a rule.

It is what I mean, but only referring to a certain groups. It was never meant to sound like a universal rule.

There are obviously some groups/people out there who view the path to god as a sort of universal road that can be taken in many different ways. I'm specifically referring to stricter groups, ones that have clear beliefs that are different from each other. One example can be the Roman Catholic church's views on justification versus the Lutheran Church's.

 

[ashura]

Both Roman catholics and Lutherans believe in the Triune God and that God the Father sent his only begotten son to die and atone for the sins of mankind. That is all that is necessary, in my opinion to make one a Christian. All the rest is trappings.

Yes, and I've never questioned the validity of her Christianity. Rather, I'm questioning your statement that you don't think she is wrong in some sense when it comes to her faith. It's the trappings' specifically that I'm talking about. If her version of them aren't wrong, why aren't you a Roman Catholic?

And whether or not a certain type of Christian gets into heaven is irrelevant to my question.

 

[Grantywanty]

It is what I mean, but only referring to a certain groups. It was never meant to sound like a universal rule.

There are obviously some groups/people out there who view the path to god as a sort of universal road that can be taken in many different ways. I'm specifically referring to stricter groups, ones that have clear beliefs that are different from each other. One example can be the Roman Catholic church's views on justification versus the Lutheran Church's.

OK. and I do think generalities hold well as generalities there. But amongst members of these groups there are exceptions. I mean not all Catholics think everyone else is going to hell. Some of them may never really wrestle with the contradictions, but still they don't buy it.

 

[ashura]

OK. and I do think generalities hold well as generalities there. But amongst members of these groups there are exceptions. I mean not all Catholics think everyone else is going to hell. Some of them may never really wrestle with the contradictions, but still they don't buy it.

Sure but is that really a Catholic view then? The view of an individual Catholic yes, but not the Catholic view.

 

[Grantywanty]

Sure but is that really a Catholic view then? The view of an individual Catholic yes, but not the Catholic view.

1) Good, at least you can agree to the degree implied here.
2) I think your point is a good one and not countered by my urge to write: "it is one Catholic view." Religious institutions tend to be competitive. They cannot admit to the many paths view, or so they think. Some of the dialogue between the Vatican and other religious leaders and groups, I think, could be seen as implicitly stating that these other people are not necessarily hell bound even if they do not convert. On the individual level humans on some gut level sometimes have a hard time thinking a loving God would send their kind Lutheran neighbor to hell for all time and yet, on some level, view the differences as not central. I would suspect that there are fewer Catholics who believe all protestants Jews etc. are all going to hell unless they convert, then we might think. Is it a contradiction? Well, probably.

 

[ashura]

1) Good, at least you can agree to the degree implied here.
2) I think your point is a good one and not countered by my urge to write: "it is one Catholic view." Religious institutions tend to be competitive. They cannot admit to the many paths view, or so they think. Some of the dialogue between the Vatican and other religious leaders and groups, I think, could be seen as implicitly stating that these other people are not necessarily hell bound even if they do not convert. On the individual level humans on some gut level sometimes have a hard time thinking a loving God would send their kind Lutheran neighbor to hell for all time and yet, on some level, view the differences as not central. I would suspect that there are fewer Catholics who believe all protestants Jews etc. are all going to hell unless they convert, then we might think. Is it a contradiction? Well, probably.

Completely agree. I sometimes wonder how many of said Catholics, or any Christian denomination for that matter, actually think about anyone being in hell for an eternity. I know some on these forums have fully embraced the idea and don't reject it, such as Adstar (a stance I respect much more than those who simply tuck the issue under the rug). Others, I can't help wonder what they would think or say if it was brought up in conversation. Or if they did say something, but it happened to be contradictory to what's in the bible, if they would question the moral legitimacy of the source text? I've had some conversations with some Christians personally on the matter, but the scope of just how many Christians (and Muslims) are out there in the world makes me think what few conversations I've had are irrelevant without something MUCH bigger to compare them to.

I know as a former theist that it just wasn't something I thought of, and that the issue was one of a few that led to me being an atheist.

 

[Myles]

QUOTE=Till Eulenspiegel;1642581] I am Lutheran and my wife is Roman Catholic. While I don't believe exactly as she does I don't think she is 'wrong'. I would prefer that she be Lutheran so that we could go to church together on Sunday mornings rather than each of us going to a different church but each of us is most comfortable with our own sect and neither of us is about to change or religion



If you were married in a Catholic church ,the cermony took place at a side altar, the Pope's blessing was denied you and you gave an undertaking to bring your children up as Roman Catholics. So much for tolerance and God's love


If you were married in a Lutheran church the Catholic Church will not regard your wife as married in the sight of God. She will be regarded as living in sin.

Lutherans are more tolerant but how many do you know who are married to Mormons, Baptists, etc.,etc. ?